RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I mean Soulcake literally already said that if the books were stored in a runesmiths vault there's basically no risk of them falling into enemy hands but that clearly doesn't matter so I guess every one voting for no books should be censuring Thungni himself after all he wrote a book with actual runelore in it never mind just peripherally related. Morgrim should be censured for writing down engineering secrets where literally any one could learn them.

The Ancestor gods themselves have all written books with secrets and lore in them related to their domains. How incredibly undwarf like of them.

Tbh the disconnect between what's in the story/quest and what a lot of posters think is in the quest is kind of baffling. You'd think the written word was some how profane based on the current thread of opinion.

 

[Cursix]

I imagine, like the chainforger, there's nothing stopping us from sharing akazit or other important knowledge if we figure it out. Calling forgoing the library right at this moment (when we know for a fact we can revisit this at a later point, by the by) as being illiterate or hating books or never sharing knowledge is disingenuous at best, actively lying or fear mongering at worst.

 

[TimEd]

The issue with the "well, surely they'll only store those books in a couple of concentrated, secure places, like our Workshop" argument is that it runs into the main reason something like what we're doing runs the risk of censure: It might concentrate Rune knowledge and authority in one place. The reason this whole endeavor might be viewed with skepticism isn't simply a matter of "recording knowledge where evil people can get it bad", even if there is some elements of that. If our Workshop becomes a concentration of Runic knowledge that we accumulate and only we can give access to, then it could be regarded as overreach of our position as a Runelord, or abuse of our authority.

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But if that knowledge isn't really needed by the wider runesmithing community anyway (because of the votes and support to have no library at all), then what even is the loss to others not getting access to said library?

 

[Dutch]

The issue with the "well, surely they'll only store those books in a couple of concentrated, secure places, like our Workshop" argument is that it runs into the main reason something like what we're doing runs the risk of censure: It might concentrate Rune knowledge and authority in one place. The reason this whole endeavor might be viewed with skepticism isn't simply a matter of "recording knowledge where evil people can get it bad", even if there is some elements of that. If our Workshop becomes a concentration of Runic knowledge that we accumulate and only we can give access to, then it could be regarded as overreach of our position as a Runelord, or abuse of our authority.

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We're already concentrating knowledge anyway. That is the entire point here.

If your concern is Snorri turning into an all-powerful Runeking then use what we already have. Run the place with a mini Grand Conclave, where the Runesmiths decide on things collectively.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Or, having seen the Master Rune of Conduction before, just making it whole cloth.

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Sorry but this is a huge stretch. I mean, a lot of the post is, but this especially.
An exact copy of the Master Rune of Conduction but the strikes where with a different timing or order would in fact be a different rune that's not MConduction. Stealling reagent lore would only help someone who already theoretically knows how to make the Rune however doesn't have the actual skill to pull it off. They wouldn't just need to see it, or Snorri could potentially make the Rune of Eternity, they would still need to know how to make it.
As far as replacing stuff with superior reagents, MConduction is again a terrible example as our process at the point in the quest where we made Trollslayer was "Just use bits from an older dragon instead." its hardly earth shattering ground breaking knowledge that you're afraid of being stolen.

This whole discussion has degraded so much from where it started, and just to remind everyone:

Just checking as you keep hammering this point, you are aware that no plan puts Runelore in books?
Even the most extreme option is explicit about this:
The library is about magic and rune adjacent lore, stuff that is useful to know as a runesmith, but you couldn't learn runecraft from alone.

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I am aware. I'm just incredibly uncomfortable with the precedent set by a massive centralised library for runesmiths, and in general I don't think it's worth the Maximums cost for what it would get us.

If the storage medium were inherently more secure (and cooler) like holocrons, I'd have fewer issues. I just don't want to fundamentally impose on what the character of a runesmith is, and think we have to be very careful about appearing like we're trying to centralise or upend the way the guild works, and more importantly, imposing that on other runesmiths.

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We used to be a lot more reasonable. The original position was never that stealing reagent information could compromise Rune Lore.
And the other side calling the absence of the library as 'illiterate' is no better.

 

[Dutch]

Ah yes. The great oral tradition that never recovered from the Time of Woes. The masters die, the apprentices die and the survivors are left with no wone worthy to pass their craft to.

Frankly. If we're ever going to attempt to do something about that it has to be now. Any subsequent changes are only going to be harder because we're pretty much picking all standing boosting options now. Overflow gets discarded, so as time goes on things will only be more difficult to change.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Ah yes. The great oral tradition that never recovered from the Time of Woes. The masters die, the apprentices die and the survivors are left with no wone worthy to pass their craft to.

Frankly. If we're ever going to attempt to do something about that it has to be now. Any subsequent changes are only going to be harder because we're pretty much picking all standing boosting options now. Overflow gets discarded, so as time goes on things will only be more difficult to change.

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Who are you responding to?

 

[TheDuke]

But if that knowledge isn't really needed by the wider runesmithing community anyway (because of the votes and support to have no library at all), then what even is the loss to others not getting access to said library?

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I don't mean it in a dragon hoarding gold sort of way. One of the bigger issues with establishing a semi-institution like we are is that it's generally frowned upon to try and forcibly control how Runesmithing develops around you. If you just influence the local community and inspire others by virtue of how great you are that obviously isn't much of an issue, but something like trying to suppress other schools of thought obviously is. I won't say this is a guaranteed fact or anything, maybe I'm wrong, but one major issue I could see coming up is that collecting a large store of runelore-related info, which we ourself would curate and dictate access to, might be regarded by those less charitable to us as us trying to control how Runesmithing develops in the North, by creating a resource a large number of Runesmiths would have access to and probably use while also exerting more or less sole authority over it. By not adding in certain knowledge, or placing special emphasis on certain types, or whatever.

Not to mention it goes against a lot of Runesmithing tradition in general, which in and of itself could be seen as an overreach. Now obviously that isn't Snorri's intention, and I don't think he would ever do that. But the issue isn't what Snorri is actually doing, it's what he could be perceived as doing, or what some believe might eventually become of it.

We're already concentrating knowledge anyway. That is the entire point here.

If your concern is Snorri turning into an all-powerful Runeking then use what we already have. Run the place with a mini Grand Conclave, where the Runesmiths decide on things collectively.

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I'm not concerned Snorri's going to turn into some kind of runelord sith or anything like that. I do think that something like a library is the option out of all of these that could be seen as the most ripe for abuse though. Allowing debate and discussion between Runesmiths more or less amounts to simply letting them do what they would do anyways. Allowing those who wish to teach is also not an issue, assuming we just let them teach what they want. The others are a bit of a gray area, but they also don't really pertain to Runelore and the like, they just facilitate an easier time for all the Runesmiths who'd be in the workshop anyways. The library is the one thing that I feel could be the most easily interpreted as us trying to "seize authority" or the like. We aren't, obviously, but even if we want to generally implement this idea we also want to try and limit the amount of flak Snorri'd catch for it I'd think. Also, we...aren't really trying to concentrate knowledge? We want to disseminate it, if anything.

 

[pucflek]

Ah yes. The great oral tradition that never recovered from the Time of Woes. The masters die, the apprentices die and the survivors are left with no wone worthy to pass their craft to.

Frankly. If we're ever going to attempt to do something about that it has to be now. Any subsequent changes are only going to be harder because we're pretty much picking all standing boosting options now. Overflow gets discarded, so as time goes on things will only be more difficult to change.

Click to shrink...

So, either the books are not about runes and therefore security concerns are not that great, or the books will lead to eventual publishing of Master Runes and therefore are actually that unsafe. And only one of those options would do jack shit to Time of Woes (and even so i doubt it. Holds have fallen and vaults have been plundered, even Karaks built by the very Ancestor Gods themselves), so which is it really? Because this doesn't really jive with either of the stances voters mostly talked about here.

That aside, if you think our institution will entirely fail at proliferation of runes among far greater number of runesmiths so badly that Time of Woes will still be able to wipe them out, then we might scrap the entire idea because its entirely useless. Because if even the changes to rune policy proliferation we are now making don't propagate to far greater spread of knowledge literally 2500 years from now, something like books in a Karak that can fall in that time is also completely futile.

 

[Rukia]

I mean Soulcake literally already said that if the books were stored in a runesmiths vault there's basically no risk of them falling into enemy hands but that clearly doesn't matter so I guess every one voting for no books should be censuring Thungni himself after all he wrote a book with actual runelore in it never mind just peripherally related. Morgrim should be censured for writing down engineering secrets where literally any one could learn them.

The Ancestor gods themselves have all written books with secrets and lore in them related to their domains. How incredibly undwarf like of them.

Tbh the disconnect between what's in the story/quest and what a lot of posters think is in the quest is kind of baffling. You'd think the written word was some how profane based on the current thread of opinion.

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There is a lot of strawmanning going on in the thread here because people are upset that the no-library vote is winning.

You should step back for a moment and consider that this is hardly the end of the world. There will be future votes to include a library, one that I will vote for as well. The reason the winning vote is excluding the library is because we are concerned about Snorri's mental health and worried about our image. No books takes an intentionally light touch with Business and Procurement because we don't want to make people think we are trying to made a bonafide Guildhall for Runesmiths.

While the author of the plan might have certain opinions about Runelords and Books, I don't agree with them, nor do I particularly care. I feel that leaving out the Library does the least harm to the institution being created, and we can add it later. We will take the same standing hits, but Snorri won't be inflicted with anywhere near as much mental strain doing it in pieces.

The whole thread has gotten caught up arguing over a tiny part of the greater vote, you all seem to forget that most Runesmiths already don't tend to write down books all that often, not encouraging them doing that isn't making the situation worse. And, once again, we will have the chance to change that in the future.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

There is a lot of strawmanning going on in the thread here because people are upset that the no-library vote is winning.

You should step back for a moment and consider that this is hardly the end of the world. There will be future votes to include a library, one that I will vote for as well. The reason the winning vote is excluding the library is because we are concerned about Snorri's mental health and worried about our image. No books takes an intentionally light touch with Business and Procurement because we don't want to make people think we are trying to made a bonafide Guildhall for Runesmiths.

While the author of the plan might have certain opinions about Runelords and Books, I don't agree with them, nor do I particularly care. I feel that leaving out the Library does the least harm to the institution being created, and we can add it later. We will take the same standing hits, but Snorri won't be inflicted with anywhere near as much mental strain doing it in pieces.

The whole thread has gotten caught up arguing over a tiny part of the greater vote, you all seem to forget that most Runesmiths already don't tend to write down books, not encouraging them doing that isn't making the situation worse. And, once again, we will have the chance to change that in the future.

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It's not strawmanning at all, a number of people have said that not even peripherally related to runelore information should be in books and that's why they want the no library. I'm arguing against the central conceit of those positions that writing things down is undwarf like by pointing out the ancestors themselves wrote down information that wasn't just peripherally related.

Your point about doing it later is also completely wrong. We can't add it later because the plan is taking all of the standing boosting items now and losing all the overflow, so if you add even the smallest part later our standing tanks dramatically and more crucially he'll take the same mental blow doing it later unless your plan is to do it literally 50 turns later.

Which frankly I doubt the quest will still be alive then.

 

[Rukia]

It's not strawmanning at all, a number of people have said that not even peripherally related to runelore information should be in books and that's why they want the no library. I'm arguing against the central conceit of those positions that writing things down is undwarf like by pointing out the ancestors themselves wrote down information that wasn't just peripherally related.

Your point is also completely wrong. We can't add it later because the plan is taking all of the standing boosting items now and losing all the overflow, so if you add even the smallest part later our standing tanks dramatically and more crucially he'll take the same mental blow doing it later unless your plan is to do it literally 50 turns later.

Which frankly I doubt the quest will still be alive then.

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You aren't thinking rationally and are posting emotionally. Soulcake has said that in 1-200 years the Maximum will increase, but we haven't even hit the maximum yet now have we? We can let the Runeversity sit for 5~ turns to prove that it works and let Snorri's mental health recover, then add a moderate library to the campus.

The standing loss is only -1 for Conservatives for the medium library. Sure we take a standing hit but is that actually a bad thing? Oh no, people revere the ground we walk on slightly less, whatever shall we do?

I would suggest you don't talk as if the quest is going to die, all that does is make the author feel bad and not want to write.

 

[pucflek]

You aren't thinking rationally and are posting emotionally. Soulcake has said that in 1-200 years the Maximum will increase, but we haven't even hit the maximum yet now have we? We can let the Runeversity sit for 5~ turns to prove that it works and let Snorri's mental health recover, then add a moderate library to the campus.

The standing loss is only -1 for Conservatives for the medium library. Sure we take a standing hit but is that actually a bad thing? Oh no, people revere the ground we walk on slightly less, whatever shall we do?

I would suggest you don't talk as if the quest is going to die, all that does is make the author feel bad and not want to write.

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I mean no. Voting for additions is not going to be that frequent and additional changes are frowned upon. Thats not to say that Library cannot be added but it almost certainly won't be in next 10 turns (because it takes 5 turns to build and you said 5 turns to wait).

 

[TheDuke]

You aren't thinking rationally and are posting emotionally. Soulcake has said that in 1-200 years the Maximum will increase, but we haven't even hit the maximum yet now have we? We can let the Runeversity sit for 5~ turns to prove that it works and let Snorri's mental health recover, then add a moderate library to the campus.

The standing loss is only -1 for Conservatives for the medium library. Sure we take a standing hit but is that actually a bad thing? Oh no, people revere the ground we walk on slightly less, whatever shall we do?

I would suggest you don't talk as if the quest is going to die, all that does is make the author feel bad and not want to write.

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Eh...I'm pretty sure it was less 100 years and more like...1000 years before major additions and changes wouldn't just be seen as us trying to sneak things in after the fact.

 

[Cursix]

We can let the Runeversity sit for 5~ turns to prove that it works and let Snorri's mental health recover, then add a moderate library to the campus.

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I think soul has said that's a bit quick to revisit it, even if I do agree on adding it later, and also agree that anyone saying not doing it now means we'll never do it is lying, being disingenuous etc.

 

[pucflek]

Eh...I'm pretty sure it was less 100 years and more like...1000 years before major additions and changes wouldn't just be seen as us trying to sneak things in after the fact.

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I mean prolly not that either. I doubt it will take double the entire quest lenght. The ballpark of 200-300 years seems more in tune.

EDIT: Lol turns/years goddamnit.

 

[Dark as Silver]

The standing loss is only -1 for Conservatives for the medium library. Sure we take a standing hit but is that actually a bad thing? Oh no, people revere the ground we walk on slightly less, whatever shall we do?

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Yes this, Standing for Runesmiths doesn't give mechanical benefits so its not like theres any loss in that sense. And narratively, Snorri's always been a hermit and those standings are generally for people who don't have more specific values to overwrite it
And if we really do need to top our standing up:

[ ] [Difficult] The Rune Metal Pt. 3b: [Cost: (18 -4) =14 actions] Master of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will proc. There is more, one last step before you can say this mine is truly tapped out. The work needed to make the process accessible to the Metalsmiths Guild in a form that wouldn't beggar most of them would be long, arduous, but you refused to stop where you were. If it meant taking on the labour of reducing a Master Rune down to its constituent parts so be it! Your will would not be denied, your Runesmith's pride and personal satisfaction demand you do so! Bah!

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It won't necessarily be easy, but we do have options.

and additional changes are frowned upon.

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Has anyone yet shown that additional changes are more frowned upon than they would be if they were part of the initial design?
As best I can tell this is a standing overflow thing and literally no other difference.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

You aren't thinking rationally and are posting emotionally. Soulcake has said that in 1-200 years the Maximum will increase, but we haven't even hit the maximum yet now have we? We can let the Runeversity sit for 5~ turns to prove that it works and let Snorri's mental health recover, then add a moderate library to the campus.

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Soulcake has since clarified to say to not expect any changes for a very long time. The time line was centuries. So I really don't get where you're coming from the idea that we can make changes after five turns.

 

[Wing101r]

Honestly this time is the only time that making the library maximum or not doesnt tank our standing since we actually have decent overflow unlike when we add in the future.

Especially with it being the most costly in terms of standing.

 

[Cursix]

Has anyone yet shown that additional changes are more frowned upon than they would be if they were part of the initial design?
As best I can tell this is a standing overflow thing and literally no other difference.

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Soul explicitly said they'll be the same either way in that regards, that theres no way to "game" or lessen the backlash by doing it all now or doing it in portions.

Honestly this time is the only time that making the library maximum or not doesnt tank our standing since we actually have decent overflow unlike when we add in the future.

Especially with it being the most costly in terms of standing.

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Yeah I can accept that; this is probably the only good point I've seen for taking it right this moment specifically in this whole argument. (Not talking about wether or not we should take it at all, just now or later). Still dislike Bird as a plan with everything else it does so I'm not voting for it and keeping my vote on Books so Bird doesn't win, but I can 100% agree on this point right here.

 

[Rukia]

I mean no. Voting for additions is not going to be that frequent and additional changes are frowned upon. Thats not to say that Library cannot be added but it almost certainly won't be in next 10 turns (because it takes 5 turns to build and you said 5 turns to wait).

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That's fair, 10 turns is a reasonable wait, though it might more likely be 15-20 accounting for other tasks we have.

Eh...I'm pretty sure it was less 100 years and more like...1000 years before major additions and changes wouldn't just be seen as us trying to sneak things in after the fact.

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Soulcake said 100~ years, if you think otherwise I'd take it up with him.

Soulcake has since clarified to say to not expect any changes for a very long time. The time line was centuries. So I really don't get where you're coming from the idea that we can make changes after five turns.

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Have you forgotten that each turn is 10 years? A century is 10 turns.

 

[TheDuke]

I mean prolly not that either. I doubt it will take double the entire quest lenght. The ballpark of 200-300 turns seems more in tune.

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Well that's not too bad then.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Have you forgotten that each turn is 10 years? A century is 10 turns.

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We haven't hit turn 50 yet. Thats more than a fifth of the current thread.
E;

I mean prolly not that either. I doubt it will take double the entire quest lenght. The ballpark of 200-300 turns seems more in tune.

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years not turns?

 

[kinglugia]

For the Library vote, Snorri never planned to write down Runelore; only properties of reagents and whatnot.

Books on every reagent you know of, some even written by your own hand. Wisdom and lessons learned from multiple sources about enemy magic, and more. No Runelore, and no Elven texts, but it would certainly help the common Runesmith get up to snuff.

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This is the MAXIMUM option for the Library, and the bolded bits.

 

[pucflek]

We haven't hit turn 50 yet. Thats more than a fifth of the current thread.
E;

years not turns?

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Yeah i misspoke. Edited it in.