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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] [Burudin:] Yes:
[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations: In removing one problem, that being the overcrowding of your home, you have created another. Perhaps it is no concern of yours, but you will do what you can to find a way to house them now that squatting in your home is no longer an option. Unlocks further options.
 
[X] [Home:] Embrace
Fine. Fine. If the idiots are choosing to be cheeky and finagle a way to stay in your home, they're going to at least pay for the privilege! It will require a good deal of work, and cost a pretty penny both in time and effort, but if it's going to be done, then it's going to be done right. Your southern colleagues may grumble and growl, but when have they not? You're over a thousand years old, they can suck on a particularly porous piece of pumice for all you care! Unlocks further options.

[X] [Burudin:] Yes:
Gain title, Member of the Burudin. Options Unlocked. Yorri is too plagued by his mysterious old hurts to see the truth. Accept Alric's offer, and join the Burudin.
 
[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations: In removing one problem, that being the overcrowding of your home, you have created another. Perhaps it is no concern of yours, but you will do what you can to find a way to house them now that squatting in your home is no longer an option. Unlocks further options.
[X] [Burudin:] No

I think we would be fine setting some boundaries in our own home, and I don't think we need anymore responsibilities or political bullshit. We don't have to join every single society. Especially if our master is so against it.
 
X ] [Burudin:] Yes:
Gain title, Member of the Burudin. Options Unlocked. Yorri is too plagued by his mysterious old hurts to see the truth. Accept Alric's offer, and join the Burudin.


[X] [Home:] Embrace
Fine. Fine. If the idiots are choosing to be cheeky and finagle a way to stay in your home, they're going to at least pay for the privilege! It will require a good deal of work, and cost a pretty penny both in time and effort, but if it's going to be done, then it's going to be done right. Your southern colleagues may grumble and growl, but when have they not? You're over a thousand years old, they can suck on a particularly porous piece of pumice for all you care! Unlocks further options.

Lets go and change the world of Runesmithing once more. Thugnison obviously wants us in there to fix the whole mess it turned out to be.
 
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X ] [Burudin:] Yes:
Gain title, Member of the Burudin. Options Unlocked. Yorri is too plagued by his mysterious old hurts to see the truth. Accept Alric's offer, and join the Burudin.


[X] [Home:] Embrace
Fine. Fine. If the idiots are choosing to be cheeky and finagle a way to stay in your home, they're going to at least pay for the privilege! It will require a good deal of work, and cost a pretty penny both in time and effort, but if it's going to be done, then it's going to be done right. Your southern colleagues may grumble and growl, but when have they not? You're over a thousand years old, they can suck on a particularly porous piece of pumice for all you care! Unlocks further options.

Lets go and change the world of Runesmithing once more. Thugnison obviously wants us in there to fix the whole mess it turned out to be.
You messed up your vote for Burudin
 
Actually, for those saying that we should just take Yori's advice, remember the vote about the Rune of Featherlight, when the very concept of expressing an opinion about what Dolgi should do was strongly rejected as fundamentally wrong.

This is worse. Snorri is a runelord. He's taken on the duty to have an opinion about such things. Yori, by electing to stay a Master Runesmith rather than take on the additional responsibilities of being a runelord has not.

He's also criticising the members of an institution for not remaining prisoners of its design. Institutions evolving to serve new functions is desirable. The burudin, being an avenue through which politics happens, may actually be a good be a good thing for the guild, as it provides a forum through which such disputes can be safely resolved and conflicts defused.

If the Burudin as a shadow governance* forum for the wider guild didn't exist, it may have needed to be invented.

* not in the sense of a government, but as an institution through which the powers within the guild can get to know each other and interact directly and privately rather than risking conflict between the more junior runesmiths they influence.
 
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[X] [Home:] Embrace
Fine. Fine. If the idiots are choosing to be cheeky and finagle a way to stay in your home, they're going to at least pay for the privilege! It will require a good deal of work, and cost a pretty penny both in time and effort, but if it's going to be done, then it's going to be done right. Your southern colleagues may grumble and growl, but when have they not? You're over a thousand years old, they can suck on a particularly porous piece of pumice for all you care! Unlocks further options.

[X] [Burudin:] Yes:
Gain title, Member of the Burudin. Options Unlocked. Yorri is too plagued by his mysterious old hurts to see the truth. Accept Alric's offer, and join the Burudin.

Yorri seems biased, and the potential for rune trades is very appealing. And whole I'm not totally sure on the home thing, what's the functional ramifications of embrace vs. accomodations? Because accomodations sounds like it could be a university too, but if it isn't, what is it?
 
@soulcake , what kind of pull would a Buruduin member who staunchedly opposed us have? Like, if we really managed to tick one off.
For you specifically? If we assume that a member wielded their soft power to such a degree...

It depends on the member specifically of course, someone like Alric Thungnisson has more weight than a regular Burudin member, but their baseline is certainly Runelord level.
So working from that baseline, first off their Hold's Runesmith community will essentially ignore you and any points, innovations and proposals you make. Were you a Master Runesmith you'd be better off moving to another Hold far away from them otherwise you'd find the knock on effects of having your Guild essentially abandoning you affect your business and ability to operate. Contracts dry up because Runesmiths say you aren't trustworthy, parents wont let you apprentice their kid, friends only speak to you in secret that sort of thing. As it is, for a Dwarf of your station, they'll make platitudes and grumble about possibilities, but you won't see anything of real substance from them.

Same goes for the surrounding region, unless there's another member to counter their influence, but not as much as in the member's own Hold.

Dwarfs can get and have been that petty, but Runesmiths, in general, tend to self-select so that those individuals don't get the chance to piss off a Burudin member to that level. Not that it's ever gotten that bad from what you know. Usually the offender offers recompense or takes the first chance to prove themselves they can get before it gets that bad. It takes a special kind of stubborn to ignore the weight of that much shame, or a comparable level of influence.

Burudin members have been known to get into spats that sorta spiral into little Hold-wide rivalries. Nothing official, or overly obvious like blacklisting, embargoes or anything like that mind you. But a Runesmith from Brynduraz may scoff at the work of a Runesmith from Zhufbar and call it untested beardling nonsense more often if their respective Burudin members were scuffing it out for example. Mostly because the two feuding members would be making it well known to their local communities about what they think of that no good wazzok down the street and of course you'd listen to and trust the opinion of the most talented Dwarf in your home yeah?

In short, their theoretical max is far higher, but they only apply as much pressure as say, a Guild Master/Runelord disapproving of your work does.
 
Durin's stated goal for founding the Burudin was to gather the greatest Runesmiths in the Guild together on a regular basis to, in his words, "push the art of Runecraft forward." It was his belief that by having the brightest minds speak in what was essentially an open forum, then the best ideas and innovations would come out of the crucible of frank discussion and fair critique. Whether it would be through cooperation between colleagues or one-upmanship between rivals, the eldest son of Thungni reckoned Runesmithing would benefit from the results regardless. What Durin may have failed to account for, scandalous as the thought may be, was that the best Runesmiths in the realms were usually the oldest and most influential as well. So it was that as time passed, the prestige of those Runesmiths became the prestige of the organization, and soon it was seen that the Burudin were the best of the best because they were in the Burudin and not the Burudin accepting only the best. Not anyone could just join, for it required a majority agreement from the group itself, and because latter members conflated the purpose and prestige of the Burudin, the cycle perpetuated itself. Now only the oldest and most prestigious Runelords and very select Masters may join, for in the minds of the Guild and Burudin that is what it takes to be a member of the group.

Or at least that's what Snorri believes, after having listened to Yorri rant and rave about the Burudin becoming a political creature that has grown to ignore its founding purpose.

I've been told that there may be recency bias with how the Burudin were portrayed by some concerned voters, and upon review, I can see the argument has some merit. I'll add the above blurb, or some form of it to the update though, just as an FYI.

Thanks. :^)
Basically the Burudin is more a social club than anything else. A place to meet with ones peers at the top of the field and exchange ideas (maybe via exchanges of runes, maybe via shouting matches, maybe via showing off, maybe via any of a dozen other methods). I think this undercuts a lot of the arguments both for and against joining the Burudin that I've seen put about by the threat; one the one hand there's a lot less required of Snorri simply by joining than many are thinking, but on the other there's also a lot less on offer than many might be thinking, both primarily because the Burudin is essentially a situation where you get out what you put in.

Simply put, beyond a background prestige gain across the Karaz Ankor and maybe the occasional farther flung Runelord reaching out to us, it will require actual effort (and actions) to see fruit from joining. We'll need to travel and interact with the Burudin in an active manner in order to reap the greater benefits of accepting.

At the same time this isn't the sort of organization that is going to demand much of Snorri, it's simply not designed to. It has no set goal beyond advancing Runecraft in some nebulous sense and no underpinning ideology to which Snorri must subscribe.

Basically all the 'danger' of joining is outwardly focused; Snorri won't be going on missions for the Burudin or be required to perform favors for it, it won't demand anymore of his time than his existing correspondence with his peers because all it's fundamentally does is make some introductions a little easier and even the playing field a little bit with the oldest and most accomplished of Runelords. Yorri is mostly worried about what the Burudin will do to Runesmithing as an art rather than what it'll do to Snorri and his advice to stay away from it is based on that.

That said, joining is not without a cost. Joining will lose Snorri some approval in Yorri's eye. Not enough to radically alter their relationship, I would think, at least not in such a way that it would be obvious right away, but it will be yet another way in which the two of them disagree on things. And that disagreement will mean that it will be harder to develop Snorri's relationship with Yorri further. What exactly that entails I can't say for certain (I have some ideas, but they're too speculative to be useful) but I think it should be kept in mind.

What though are the potential consequences of rejecting the offer to join the Burudin? I think an immediate outcome will be a shift in Yorri's demeanor; because rejecting the Burudin will signal to him that even though he and Snorri often disagree the boy does in fact listen when he speaks and can be brought around to reason. At least on some things. There's that big fat '???' on the option for a reason.

I'm still not entirely sure whether rejecting or accepting the Burudin offer is the better choice in my eyes, but that's my thinking on it so far. For whatever it's worth to the thread.
 
Hmm, are you guys seeing this or is it meo_O? Because, I think the voting isn't counting the other votes?
Adhoc vote count started by DXCS on Jan 31, 2022 at 7:23 PM, finished with 201 posts and 96 votes.
 
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Interestingly, it sounds like we may really want there to be a Far Northern Burudin member to give 'air cover' to the local runesmiths who are otherwise more vulnerable to a Burudin in another hold getting in a snit and blackballing them, which Snorri as a Burudun member would serve as a deterrent to prevent escalation or an avenue of negotiation to calm a dispute.
 

FYI, your vote needs to be closed by brackets like this [ ] for it to show in the tally.

Hmm, are you guys seeing this or is it meo_O? Because, I think the voting isn't counting the other votes?

The tally is counting from Soulcake's latest information threadmark, not the end of the last chapter. So votes before the information threadmark are being excluded from the count, unless you set the range manually to the end of the last chapter.
 
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Hmm, are you guys seeing this or is it meo_O? Because, I think the voting isn't counting the other votes?
Adhoc vote count started by DXCS on Jan 31, 2022 at 7:23 PM, finished with 201 posts and 96 votes.
I can definitely agree with you on this one:
Adhoc vote count started by LysanderArgent on Jan 31, 2022 at 7:33 PM, finished with 65 posts and 42 votes.
 
[X] [Home:] Embrace

[X] [Burudin:] No:

Great as it may be, there also is a lot of grumbling and secrets. We know and already are part of one secret organization, trust our Elder and Teacher to actually know what he's talking about. And do we really want more actions we're duty-bound to complete if we're part of Burudin, it's a burden we don't want.
 
[X] [Burudin:] No

At least for me I think Snorri has enough on his plate already. The extra options are tantalizing, but I do think Snorri has enough work already.
 
That said, joining is not without a cost. Joining will lose Snorri some approval in Yorri's eye. Not enough to radically alter their relationship, I would think, at least not in such a way that it would be obvious right away, but it will be yet another way in which the two of them disagree on things. And that disagreement will mean that it will be harder to develop Snorri's relationship with Yorri further. What exactly that entails I can't say for certain (I have some ideas, but they're too speculative to be useful) but I think it should be kept in mind.

What though are the potential consequences of rejecting the offer to join the Burudin? I think an immediate outcome will be a shift in Yorri's demeanor; because rejecting the Burudin will signal to him that even though he and Snorri often disagree the boy does in fact listen when he speaks and can be brought around to reason. At least on some things. There's that big fat '???' on the option for a reason.

I think if that was going to happen it would have already, as what Yori is objecting to is basically being a runelord with responsibilities to guide dwarven and runesmith society rather than staying as a master runesmith who can focus on crafting and research full time.

Yori made the decision to stay a master runesmith. Snorri decided to accept the promotion and the duties that came with it. That die is cast.
 
[x] [Home:] Embrace
[x] [Burudin:] No

We're walking down the road to creating a College of Runesmiths, the thing the Burudin were meant to be and distinctly failed to become. I doubt we'd be able to remain a member in good standing and still be allowed to create a standing indictment of the Burudin's abandonment of their original purpose.
 
[X] [Home:] Embrace
Fine. Fine. If the idiots are choosing to be cheeky and finagle a way to stay in your home, they're going to at least pay for the privilege! It will require a good deal of work, and cost a pretty penny both in time and effort, but if it's going to be done, then it's going to be done right. Your southern colleagues may grumble and growl, but when have they not? You're over a thousand years old, they can suck on a particularly porous piece of pumice for all you care! Unlocks further options.

[X] [Burudin:] Yes:
Gain title, Member of the Burudin. Options Unlocked. Yorri is too plagued by his mysterious old hurts to see the truth. Accept Alric's offer, and join the Burudin.
 
We're walking down the road to creating a College of Runesmiths, the thing the Burudin were meant to be and distinctly failed to become. I doubt we'd be able to remain a member in good standing and still be allowed to create a standing indictment of the Burudin's abandonment of their original purpose.

The Burudin don't allow or disallow anything. It's a talking shop, not a new boss.
 
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