RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

No?

Zhufazul, for instance, cost 4 actions but we favored it down to 1. We got 3 progress in total for other trees. Dronril cost six (could have been done in four) and got us 4 progress spread out.

We used Zhufazul recently. Also material research seems to be the way to upgrade Journeyman of the Odd.

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Do you not read my posts? As seen from how this conversation started I've been talking about our current corpse mat science actions I also made specific exceptions for actions like Zhufazul and Dronril when talking about material science later in general saying I'd do them because I think they're particularly promising.

And, none of our current material science actions have any favor options so that entire line of discussion is useless here. Plus, they're unlikely to give a lot of research as Dronril did as material science actions which see those types of returns are quite rare and usually highly related to one of the projects at hand.

Suneater's Brain for example is decidedly unlikely to give us a bunch of Diction Direction research as an example as it's unlikely to have any properties which will suddenly give us a bunch of insights into those research chains rather it's much more likely to just be an extremely powerful ingredient instead.

Edit: And even the two examples for research you do bring out here Dronril and Zhuzaful result in a 1:1 spending ratio at best and a 1.25:1 spending ratio before favors despite being such promising projects like with that in mind odds are the autopsies will have even worse exchange rates.

 

[MrHobbit]

Do you not read my posts? As seen from how this conversation started I've been talking about our current corpse mat science actions I also made specific exceptions for actions like Zhufazul and Dronril when talking about material science later in general saying I'd do them because I think they're particularly promising.

And, none of our current material science actions have any favor options so that entire line of discussion is useless here. Plus, they're unlikely to give a lot of research as Dronril did as material science actions which see those types of returns are quite rare and usually highly related to one of the projects at hand.

Suneater's Brain for example is decidedly unlikely to give us a bunch of Diction Direction research as an example as it's unlikely to have any properties which will suddenly give us a bunch of insights into those research chains rather it's much more likely to just be an extremely powerful ingredient instead.

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Zhufazul and Dronril could have been absolutely useless. We didn't know before we poked them. It is the same with our other autopsies.

There is a reason why I mentioned how much it would have costed without favor. With Dronril we got a nifty new reagent and four progress across the board. As we did with all of the other Mat research options.

Suneater's Brain is a Tier Five reagent. What ever use it holds it will be beyond a mere 3 progress in areas we don't poke often.

 

[Aventur]

Do you not read my posts? As seen from how this conversation started I've been talking about our current corpse mat science actions I also made specific exceptions for actions like Zhufazul and Dronril when talking about material science later in general saying I'd do them because I think they're particularly promising.

And, none of our current material science actions have any favor options so that entire line of discussion is useless here. Plus, they're unlikely to give a lot of research as Dronril did as material science actions which see those types of returns are quite rare and usually highly related to one of the projects at hand.

Suneater's Brain for example is decidedly unlikely to give us a bunch of Diction Direction research as an example as it's unlikely to have any properties which will suddenly give us a bunch of insights into those research chains rather it's much more likely to just be an extremely powerful ingredient instead.

Edit: And even the two examples for research you do bring out here Dronril and Zhuzaful result in a 1:1 spending ratio at best and a 1.25:1 spending ratio before favors despite being such promising projects like with that in mind odds are the autopsies will have even worse exchange rates.

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Monster materials are unlikely to give us any extra progress at all, they have never done that in the past. Quotes of our gains from the 3 completed researches in spoiler.

Spoiler

Gain:
- Greedy One's Heart Trait Revealed, Pulling from the Deep: Energy eternal, drawing without end from the deepest places of the earth and the oldest magics. Whatever Rune is made from this baleful thing will not only be incredibly powerful, beyond even the scope of the original rune, but also never falter, never cease, and endure until the world's ending.

...​

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- Dragon Ogre Autopsy complete! Lightning and fury, ageless and hateful. Much of the corruption looks to be more spiritual than physical.
-- Rune Ingredients:
--- [T5] Suneater's Brain x1: The dead mind of one who saw the pact of the foulest kind be struck between primordial beast and dread thing beyond the veil of reality. The conscious and the evil has left, but the brain matter is potent regardless.
--- [T4] Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Heart x6
--- [T4] Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Brain x6
--- [T3] Dragon Ogre Shaggoth Blood x8
--- [T2] Dragon Ogre's Heart x15
--- [T2] Dragon Ogre's Blood x15
-- Structural Materials:
--- Dragon Ogre Skin, Bones and bits
--- Hide of the Suneater x1

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Gain:
- Epiphany! 1d2+ 2 =4 Progress to Odd Horns, new totals: [Cost: (4 -4) =0 actions]
-- Odd Horns Complete! A hulking monster that exudes the bitter cold of winter with more power than even the eldest Stonehorn. And thanks to your master, youre now certain that the odd horns you bought were an example of a particularly elderly specimen who'd grown so large and old its horns had bleached and began curling on themselves like a screw.
-- Odd horns revealed as [Ingredient] Elder Thundertusk's Tusk
-- +2 [Ingredient] Elder Thundertusk's Tusk: Can be a cold oriented upgrade to [T3] Stonehorn's Horns.
-- +4 [Ingredient] Thundertusk's Tusk: Can be a cold oriented upgrade to [T3] Stonehorn's Horns.
-- +4 [Ingredient] Thundertusk's Blood: Can be a replacement to [T3]Frost Wyrm's Blood.
-- +1 [Ingredient] Thundertusk's Heart: Can be a cold oriented upgrade to [T2] Troll's Heart

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[Vokivas]

My take on the material research, aside from what it can give us practically, the bonuses to other research is supplemental. Think about all the different ingredients that has lead to Akazit. Even further than that, a lot of this research is about trying to understand the truth of the world. Then, as a Runesmith, manipulating it.

Secrets of Light and Diction Direction, aside from their obvious deals with runic devices for sight and hearing, clearly plays a part in The Mind of Things. Which has a surface level of further understanding the Rune of Forged Limb, but also seems to be the path of understanding how Runes work.

Even this doesn't stand on it's own. The Movement of Things investigates how Runes channel power from the world itself.

This is all to say, I think material research is supposed to help us when we run into Durin's Consternation. Just as we likely would hit if we tried to further progress Rune Metal without doing Akazit.

Just my take on things.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Zhufazul and Dronril could have been absolutely useless. We didn't know before we poked them. It is the same with our other autopsies.

There is a reason why I mentioned how much it would have costed without favor. With Dronril we got a nifty new reagent and four progress across the board. As we did with all of the other Mat research options.

Suneater's Brain is a Tier Five reagent. What ever use it holds it will be beyond a mere 3 progress in areas we don't poke often.

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They looked promising to me just like Dragon Ogre Corpses (that one turned out to be a dud) did so I said I'd poke them.

Ya, and nothing we have here we can spend favor on that's why it's relevant plus not all mat science gives research for example that water that improved Yorri's healing didn't give us anything.

None of the other autopsies have ever given us research.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

They looked promising to me just like Dragon Ogre Corpses (that one turned out to be a dud) did so I said I'd poke them.

Ya, and nothing we have here we can spend favor on that's why it's relevant plus not all mat science gives research for example that water that improved Yorri's healing didn't give us anything.

None of the other autopsies have ever given us research.

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Can't use the previous ones as evidence either way as it was the student of the odd upgrade that gave us cross progress in research. Still not in favor of doing those mat sci unless we have a relevant use for it or something brings the cost down.

 

[RiyeLink]

Ya, and nothing we have here we can spend favor on that's why it's relevant plus not all mat science gives research for example that water that improved Yorri's healing didn't give us anything.

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It did, it gave us a +2 progress on Understand Valaya's Runes.

 

[MrHobbit]

They looked promising to me just like Dragon Ogre Corpses (that one turned out to be a dud) did so I said I'd poke them.

Ya, and nothing we have here we can spend favor on that's why it's relevant plus not all mat science gives research for example that water that improved Yorri's healing didn't give us anything.

None of the other autopsies have ever given us research.

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We did not have Journeyman of the Odd improving our material science research when we poked the dragon ogres or the other autopsies.

Of course it is relevant. If we hadn't spent favor it would have cost 4 actions to finish Dronril. We got four actions of progress.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

It did, it gave us a +2 progress on Understand Valaya's Runes.

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That's not possible we didn't get Understand Valaya's Runes until after we completed that project... And, I was looking at the wrong project.

We did not have Journeyman of the Odd improving our material science research when we poked the dragon ogres or the other autopsies.

Of course it is relevant. If we hadn't spent favor it would have cost 4 actions to finish Dronril. We got four actions of progress.

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Journeyman of the Odd says it improves research gains not that it creates them from sources that previously would have given none I even doubled back to check the turn we got it and I checked some of the conversations after it just in case Soulcake said that.

It isn't relevant because nothing we currently have we can spend favors on so you have to look at all the raw action costs compared to research gains to get an idea of what research gains we would get from our current research actions if any at all.

 

[MrHobbit]

Journeyman of the Odd says it improves research gains not that it creates them from sources that previously would have given none I even doubled back to check the turn we got it and I checked some of the conversations after it just in case Soulcake said that.

It isn't relevant because nothing we currently have we can spend favors on so you have to look at all the raw research gains to get an idea of what research gains we would get from our current research actions if any at all.

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Yes and giving progress in related areas is counted under improving research gains. Just compare material research gains before and after Journeyman of the Odd. Before mat research giving progress in other areas was intermittent while now it is basically expected.

What the fuck are you even saying? We didn't get progress in the Gronti-related research trees from Dronril because we spent favors on it. That would be bullshit anyways because favors only assisted with the purely physical properties.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Yes and giving progress in related areas is counted under improving research gains. Just compare material research gains before and after Journeyman of the Odd. Before mat research giving progress in other areas was intermittent while now it is basically expected.

What the fuck are you even saying? We didn't get progress in the Gronti-related research trees from Dronril because we spent favors on it. That would be bullshit anyways because favors only assisted with the purely physical properties.

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That seems to be more proof that autopsies won't give any research gains to be honest because it means mat science research actually had research gains to improve well autopsies do not so for mat science it was 0.5*2=1 and for autopsies it's 0*2=0 to lay it out more clearly.

I'm saying that you guys keep talking about how Dronril and stuff were so good because they only cost like one action and gave +4 research spread over a couple of research trees. Well, none of our current projects have those options we'll be paying for the full cost here so three actions and therefore we have to compare against the full costs of Dronril and other material science actions versus their rewards where they come out looking alright but not that great as just directly researching those projects instead of spending the actions on the material science would have been more efficient if not for the favors.

Edit: Like for Dronril for its original 6 actions cost we gained 4 research well if we had spent those same actions on research we would have gotten 10 research.

 

[MrHobbit]

That seems to be more proof that autopsies won't give any research gains to be honest because it means mat science research actually had research gains to improve well autopsies do not so for mat science it was 0.5*2=1 and for autopsies it's 0*2=0 to lay it out more clearly.

I'm saying that you guys keep talking about how Dronril and stuff were so good because they only cost like one action and gave +4 research spread over a couple of research trees. Well, none of our current projects have those options we'll be paying for the full cost here so three actions and therefore we have to compare against the full costs of Dronril and other material science actions versus their rewards where they come out looking alright but not that great as just directly researching those projects instead of spending the actions on the material science would have been more efficient if not for the favors.

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Autopsies are material research.

No I am not. I have never said that. I said that Dronril would have gotten us 4 actions of progress for 4 actions of investment. With additional reagent flexibility on the side.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Autopsies are material research.

No I am not. I have never said that. I said that Dronril would have gotten us 4 actions of progress for 4 actions of investment. With additional reagent flexibility on the side.

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Autopsies have to give research to improve in the first place they never have before unlike other types of mat science actions.

And, this just rounds back around to my point earlier that's still the best we've ever gotten for material science actions. Material science actions as a whole tend to underperform compared to their action costs with regards to research and so going off of that it's extremely unlikely that every corpse on that list is going to be another Dronril or something that provides 1:1 research actions if it provides any at all.

 

[MrHobbit]

Autopsies have to give research to improve in the first place they never have before unlike other types of mat science actions.

And, this just rounds back around to my point earlier that's still the best we've ever gotten we have a history of material science projects which underperform compared to their action costs for research not every corpse on that list is going to be another Dronril or something that provides 1:1 research actions if it provides any at all.

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We have only done one autopsy. One. Well two if you include the Greedy One's Heart. Dragon Ogres is not representative of the entire batch. And we have done other material research that did not give us progress in other actions. Like voidstone. There is still no proof that soulcake treats autopsies as a different category for material research.

It's easily worth it. We get new reagents to play with for even better crafting and for getting interest in the other research lines we have neglected.

Below I have listed every example of when we did material research. I did appear to be wrong about Journeyman of the Odd being the source of the new procs, but you cannot deny that research after JotO has noticeably improved.

- Dragon Ogre Autopsy complete! Lightning and fury, ageless and hateful. Much of the corruption looks to be more spiritual than physical.

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- Voidstones complete! The true death of a Greater Daemon, and the titanic explosion that comes from such an event held forever in stasis by that which is anathema to it.
-- Tier Revealed! [T4] Voidstone x7

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- Odd Wyrm's Blood complete! Pt.2 known, but locked! The Material is...not useless, but you certainly feel that without a proper understanding of the Material on a more magical level, you're a bit out of luck. As it is you're at least certain it's not harmful, by Grungni it's downright useful in some cases! Better to find lead in your silver mine than nothing but stone as they say. Durin's Consternation strikes again.
-- +1 Standing, +10 Favours with the Brotherhood of Dron, new totals: Standing 6, Favours 40.
-- +1 Standing, +5 Favours with Gorra Gromrileye, new totals: Standing 2, Favours 5
-- The Liquid formerly known as, Elder Wyrm's Blood > [T2] Prismatic Wyrm Blood [This blood can be used to replace any Dragon based Ingredient of its Tier] Whatever processes the Smelter put the Wyrm's blood through, it's seemingly made it an incredibly versatile reagent, though testing on Gorra's part has proven it isn't anywhere near as potent as it once was.
-- +1 Progress to The Rune Metal Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (12 -1) = 11 actions]

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- Spring Water complete! The healing springs of Valaya are, as you suspected, indeed improved by Valaya's Rune. While the liquid itself has no use in any Runes(that you know of), it's interaction with not only the Rune of Valaya, but other related Runes has shed a great deal of insight in regards to that Rune's properties.
-- [Tier 2] Rejuvenating Spring Water x∞ has no uses in any Runes you yet know.
-- The liquid does not retain its properties if not in contact with a constant stream of more spring water.
-- The Rune of Valaya slows down this decay, interactions with regular Runes related to healing, rejuvenation and such have odd effects on the liquid.
-- +2 Progress to Understand Valaya's Runes, new totals: [Cost: (12 -2) =10 actions]

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- Silverwood Complete!
-- [Tier 2] Azrilwut x∞: Can be a replacement to [T2]Gromril
-- To your imminent surprise this material can accept Armour Runes, not as efficiently as Gromril, but considering such Runes required Gromril in the first place it is a staggering revelation. You doubt Dawi are going to start trapezing about in wooden armour anytime soon, but it's interesting to know. If there were ways to improve the material's natural toughness…
-- According to the Brana this material sings and calls for the Gold Wind, and is to them, naturally saturated with it. The older the sample, the more suffused it becomes as it draws in more and more Gold wind.
-- That same magic is, however, in a state of disorder as Blizzardwing puts it, and is only given some semblance of order when a Rune is placed upon it.
-- +1 progress to The Rune Metal Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (12 -2) =10 actions]
-- +2 progress to The Rune Metal Pt. 1b, new totals: [Cost: (8 -2) =6 actions]

- Hearthstones Complete! Warmth, Hearth and Home, all things that Valaya represents.
-- [Tier 2] Hearthstones x∞: Can be a replacement to [T2]Troll's Heart
-- The Rune of Valaya and Runes related to healing, endurance and warmth, in general, alters the expression of this material's properties, harmonizing with the Rune in question to enhance its effect. Not touching the Rune directly, but rather joining it like an apprentice to a Master.
-- When in proximity to each other the stones lower their energy output to maintain the desired level of heat, and if left in the cold for long enough, heat themselves up until they feel as warm as they should in room temperature, to an extent.
-- The larger the individual stone, the larger the Room it can effectively heat.
-- The Brana say the stones sing of the warmth of home, safety and surety.
-- +1 progress to The Movement of Things Pt. 4, new totals: [Cost: (10 -2) =8 actions]
-- +1 progress tp The Secrets of Light Pt. 2, new totals: [Cost: (8 -2) =6 actions]
-- +2 progress to Understand Valaya's Runes, new totals: [Cost: (12 -4) =8 actions]

- Durazkul Complete! A tuber used for healing, it needs a bit of salt to taste like more than mush.
-- [Tier 2] Durazkul x∞ has no uses in any Runes you yet know.
-- The tubers, raw or cooked, provide a traceable benefit to improving one's natural healing. Especially in instances that a patient is suffering broken bones.
-- They are hardy beyond belief, store well and grow in even poor mountain soil. Something the Farmers Guild was going to exploit once they figured out a way to market it as something actually worth eating.
-- There are a few enterprising Dwarf brewers commissioned by the Cult of Valaya attempting to make a brew involving this material apparently.
-- Its effects are improved by the Rune of Valaya and other Runes that improve healing.
-- +2 progress to Understand Valaya's Runes, new totals: [Cost: (12 -6) =6 actions]

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This is where we unlocked Journeyman of the Odd.

- +5 progress to Dronril, Dronwut, new totals: [Cost: (6 -4 -1[Standing Bonus]) =1 action]
-- The gems are actually a solidified sap that is not quite amber, and they discharge mist and electricity when broken or cracked, but can be carved and shaped safely with proper care. Attempts to control the discharge proved unsuccessful due to the way it is released.
-- The amount of energy they release and can hold seems to correlate with the size of the gem in question.
-- The gems, when struck by lightning, simply explode.
-- The sap itself rapidly hardens when exposed to air.
-- Brana see the gems as storms in miniature. They attract and hold the Sapphire Wind, and sing the song of the roiling thunderheads and fierce tempests.
-- The hardened sap actually tastes vaguely sweet, but consumption is not recommended.
-- The wood has the hardness and flexibility of an actual block of Granite, but weighs the same as the average oak.
-- The wood can also act as a very effective lightning rod if properly grounded.
-- Brana observation of the phenomenon leads them to believe the trees are actually absorbing the Sapphire Wind accidentally and the lightning fuels their growth.

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- Zhufazul Complete!
-- Liquid acts like metal but also water. Boils when heated into a shimmering crimson and silver mist, freezes into something resembling red metallic ice.
-- Freezes at lower temperatures than water.
-- The Brana say the liquid sings with strength, obstinacy, fortitude, honour and other associated emotions. Grimnirzan, Grimnir's Blood, you recall Rudil say when he heard that. Hmph.
-- [Tier 2] Zhufazul (Liquid Metal)/ Grimnirzan (Grimnir's Blood) x∞: Can be a replacement to [T2] Loadstone, [T2] Loadsteel and any ingredient needed for the base Master Rune of Grimnir.
-- +2 progress to The Rune Metal Pt. 2b, new totals: [Cost: (14 -7) =7 actions]
-- +1 progress to The Rune Metal Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (12 -5) =7 actions]
-- +1 progress to The Mind of Things Pt. 3, new totals: [Cost: (10 -4) =6 actions]

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- Dronril, Dronwut complete!
-- [Tier 2] Dronril x∞: Can be a lightning oriented replacement to [T2] Troll's Heart
-- [Tier 2] Dronwut x∞ has no uses in any Runes you yet know.
-- Inscribing a Dronril with the Rune of Grungni causes it to explode with a thunderous boom concussive sound and force rather than with electricity. The fact that the sap shards are flung at speeds comparable to a crossbow bolt are terrifying to consider.
-- The gems are actually a solidified sap that is not quite amber, and they discharge mist and electricity when broken or cracked, but can be carved and shaped safely with proper care. Attempts to control the discharge proved unsuccessful due to the way it is released.
-- The amount of energy they release and can hold seems to correlate with the size of the gem in question.
-- The gems, when struck by lightning, simply explode.
-- The sap itself rapidly hardens when exposed to air. The hardened sap actually tastes vaguely sweet, but consumption is not recommended.
-- Brana see the gems as storms in miniature. They attract and hold the Sapphire Wind, and sing the song of the roiling thunderheads and fierce tempests. The wood hums with a mix of the Sapphire and Golden winds, the latter surrounding lines of the former like a warrior wears armour, or maybe a tankard holds ale, it's weird.
-- The wood has the hardness and flexibility of an actual block of Granite, but weighs the same as the average oak.
-- The wood can also act as a very effective lightning rod if properly grounded.
-- Brana observation of the phenomenon leads them to believe the trees are actually absorbing the Sapphire Wind accidentally and the lightning fuels their growth.
-- +2 progress to Diction Direction Pt. 2, new totals: [Cost: (8 -4) =4 actions]
-- +1 progress to The Movement of Things Pt. 4, new totals: [Cost: (10 -3) =7 actions]
-- +1 progress to The Secrets of Light Pt. 2, new totals: [Cost: (8 -3) =5 actions]

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[Woltaire]

now I want to reaserch silverwood again to find a way to make it stronger

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

We have only done one autopsy. One. Well two if you include the Greedy One's Heart. Dragon Ogres is not representative of the entire batch. And we have done other material research that did not give us progress in other actions. Like voidstone. There is still no proof that soulcake treats autopsies as a different category for material research.

It's easily worth it. We get new reagents to play with for even better crafting and for getting interest in the other research lines we have neglected.

Below I have listed every example of when we did material research. I did appear to be wrong about Journeyman of the Odd being the source of the new procs, but you cannot deny that research after JotO has noticeably improved.

This is where we unlocked Journeyman of the Odd.

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You missed Odd Horns which also didn't give any research which in addition to the Dragon Ogres and Greedy One's Heart is quite a bit of evidence for autopsies not tending to give research. And, mat science actions like void stones not giving any research is just more proof that the current line up of mat science actions being unlikely to see research returns comparable to Dronril.

I'd rather spend my time learning Eltharin and Alchemy instead of spending those actions on dissecting some corpses unless they're going to be of immediate use in a project because I'd rather have an entirely new discipline that improves all our crafts than possible one ingredient which might possibly improve a certain sub-set of crafts.

They're, higher than any we've seen before but equally, we're researching odd places ingredients that seem to be on the level of Hearthstones from before grabbing JotO, and compared to Hearthstones the gains aren't that much better so I'm not going into this expecting an ingredient like Firebird feathers or Chimera autopsies to be on that level I'm expecting them to be more on the level of the Odd Wyrm's Blood research or the Dragon Ogre autopsies.

 

[MrHobbit]

You missed Odd Horns which also didn't give any research which in addition to the Dragon Ogres and Greedy One's Heart is quite a bit of evidence for autopsies not tending to give research. And, mat science actions like void stones not giving any research is just more proof that the current line up of autopsies and the one mat science action are unlikely to see research returns comparable to Dronril.

I'd rather spend my time learning Eltharin and Alchemy instead of spending those actions on directing some corpses unless they're going to be of immediate use in a project because I'd rather have an entire new discipline that improves all our crafts than possible one ingredient which might possibly improve a certain sub-set of crafts.

They're, higher than any we've seen before but equally, we're researching odd places ingredients that seem to be on the level of Hearthstones from before grabbing JotO, and compared to Hearthstones the gains aren't that much better so I'm not going into this expecting an ingredient like Firebird feathers or Chimera autopsies to be on that level I'm expecting them to be more on the level of the Spring Waters research or the Dragon Ogre autopsies.

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Odd Horns was an epiphany from Yorri. He told us that they're Bigger Stonetusk horns. There was no real reason for them to give anything different. Assuming there is a difference between normal mat research and autopsies, neither that nor the Greedy One's Heart were autopsies.

It is not an either or situation especially if we don't take apprentices for a century or so. I can see Eltharin leading to Snorri having a greater understanding of magic, which could help his craft. However, Alchemy is unlikely to improve our craft other than giving us an option to alter materials.

Of course the Firebird Feathers won't give us much special loot. It is only two actions. Whereas the other options will give us a fair amount of new reagents to use (just like the Dragon-ogre) and a chance to proc new research. I admit that it is not guaranteed, but having only done one autopsy is not proof enough for you to dismiss them as useless.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Odd Horns was an epiphany from Yorri. He told us that they're Bigger Stonetusk horns. There was no real reason for them to give anything different. Assuming there is a difference between normal mat research and autopsies, neither that nor the Greedy One's Heart were autopsies.

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I took them as autopsies on Aventur's word on the subject maybe should have checked his work. And the Greedy's One's heart and Suneater's heart are pretty much mirror actions but different ingredients if the former didn't give anything the latter is unlikely to as well.

It is not an either or situation especially if we don't take apprentices for a century or so. I can see Eltharin leading to Snorri having a greater understanding of magic, which could help his craft. However, Alchemy is unlikely to improve our craft other than giving us an option to alter materials.

Of course the Firebird Feathers won't give us much special loot. It is only two actions. Whereas the other options will give us a fair amount of new reagents to use (just like the Dragon-ogre) and a chance to proc new research. I admit that it is not guaranteed, but having only done one autopsy is not proof enough for you to dismiss them as useless.

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It's an either-or situation in the short run the autopsies should be done in three action chunks which makes them mutually exclusive with doing alchemy efficiently and beyond that even if we throw efficiency out the window it's still an either-or thing with regards to finishing Odd Places and doing their mat science research, it's also an either-or situation for Rune Metal which also fits in those two action slots and its an either-or for the axe and pickaxe commissions coming up which I'm considering as those also fit into those slots.

I'd much rather do everything I've listed above which are for the most part guaranteed to give as good or better gains in my opinion instead of researching Firebird Feathers which you, yourself say aren't special loot, and the same goes for the autopsies which as you've said should give new ingredients but are pretty iffy on if they'll give us any research.

Edit: Also alchemy literally does what the autopsies do it gives us more/better ingredients to work with you can't just wave that away especially when it's so much more broadly applicable in comparison to the autopsies.

 

[kinglugia]

Honestly if we got a more combat applicable tech tree version from the Secrets of Light research than the Runic Eyes we are offered from @soulcake, I wouldn't be surprised if the thread goes for it. Wait, didn't we promise Orra we'll get to giving back her ruined eyes, swearing on our beard and all that?

 

[RiyeLink]

I think at this point, a few of us have stated why we want to do some of the Mat Sci research, and while that isn't as Min-Max as other actions, it is a valid thing to us.

EDIT: So I think we should just all agree to disagree and leave the discussion at that.

 

[soulcake]

Honestly if we got a more combat applicable tech tree version from the Secrets of Light research than the Runic Eyes we are offered from @soulcake, I wouldn't be surprised if the thread goes for it. Wait, didn't we promise Orra we'll get to giving back her ruined eyes, swearing on our beard and all that?

Click to shrink...

Im not spoiling the tech tree for you.

And yeah you did. It'd be a mark of shame on you if Orra died before you gave her said eyes, and a bad look if it took too particularly long to do so but again Rune Research. Just to head off that particular question.

 

[thefoolswriter]

ok we need to fulfil that oath

 

[Woltaire]

Im not spoiling the tech tree for you.

And yeah you did. It'd be a mark of shame on you if Orra died before you gave her said eyes, and a bad look if it took too particularly long to do so but again Rune Research. Just to head off that particular question.

Click to shrink...

in that case we better get on it then
Edit: that pushes back the commissions then if we immediately pursue it

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Whelp now I have to clear my schedule to do more Secrets of Light research now what would that even look like.

Spoiler: Old Plan

Actions	Turn 39	Turn 40 – Armoured Maidens Due, and Gnolbarag Lost	Turn 41	Turn 42 – Grave Wardens Due	Turn 43 - Skrundaz Lost	Turn 44 - Az-Dreugi Lost	Turn 45 - Gnolbarag Due, and Skrundaz Due	Turn 46 - Az-Dreugi Due
AP 1	Basket	Armoured Maidens	Grave Wardens	Grave Wardens	Eltharin	??? (Akazit)	??? (Akazit)	??? (Alchemy)
AP 2	Basket	Armoured Maidens	Grave Wardens	Grave Wardens	Eltharin	??? (Akazit)	??? (Akazit)	??? (Alchemy)
AP 3	Basket	Armoured Maidens	Grave Wardens	Grave Wardens	Eltharin	??? (Akazit)	??? (Akazit)	??? (Alchemy)
AP 4	Basket	Armoured Maidens	??? (Defense in Depth)	Grave Wardens	??? (Odd Places)	???	???	???
AP 5	Hold Founding	Hold Founding	Rhunkalbrogg	Grave Wardens	??? (Odd Places)	???	???	???

I guess we can push back Eltharin/Akazit, or we can finish Odd Places and hope it upgrades Journeyman of the Odd so that it hopefully procs on two actions, or we can just fill up the blank actions with Secrets of Light even it isn't efficient.

 

[Woltaire]

Whelp now I have to clear my schedule to do more Secrets of Light research now what would that even look like.

Spoiler: Old Plan

Actions	Turn 39	Turn 40 – Armoured Maidens Due, and Gnolbarag Lost	Turn 41	Turn 42 – Grave Wardens Due	Turn 43 - Skrundaz Lost	Turn 44 - Az-Dreugi Lost	Turn 45 - Gnolbarag Due, and Skrundaz Due	Turn 46 - Az-Dreugi Due
AP 1	Basket	Armoured Maidens	Grave Wardens	Grave Wardens	Eltharin	??? (Akazit)	??? (Akazit)	??? (Alchemy)
AP 2	Basket	Armoured Maidens	Grave Wardens	Grave Wardens	Eltharin	??? (Akazit)	??? (Akazit)	??? (Alchemy)
AP 3	Basket	Armoured Maidens	Grave Wardens	Grave Wardens	Eltharin	??? (Akazit)	??? (Akazit)	??? (Alchemy)
AP 4	Basket	Armoured Maidens	??? (Defense in Depth)	Grave Wardens	??? (Odd Places)	???	???	???
AP 5	Hold Founding	Hold Founding	Rhunkalbrogg	Grave Wardens	??? (Odd Places)	???	???	???

I guess we can push back Eltharin/Akazit, or we can finish Odd Places and hope it upgrades Journeyman of the Odd so that it hopefully procs on two actions, or we can just fill up the blank actions with Secrets of Light even it isn't efficient.

Click to shrink...

hmmm will alchemy be necessary with the secrets of light for runic eyes? I don't think so but it better to be sure