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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I'd say that Turn 41 is a fair milestone to go back to having apprentices. We released them in Turn 33, and having seven decades without apprentices is a very long time. I don't think we've ever not crafted anything or not done any research for that long, which this would be equivilent to. THat schedule would, by my reckoning, allow us to do the Cult commissions and have completed the current Alchemy research we have visible to us.
 
Alratan said:
I'd say that Turn 41 is a fair milestone to go back to having apprentices. We released them in Turn 33, and having seven decades without apprentices is a very long time. I don't think we've ever not crafted anything or not done any research for that long, which this would be equivilent to. THat schedule would, by my reckoning, allow us to do the Cult commissions and have completed the current Alchemy research we have visible to us.
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Apprentices are hardly equilavent to crafting and research. Snorri has trained nine apprentices. While the Quest has trained five. As far as I as concerned what you propose will only lead to character bloat and the cheapening of the Apprentice system.
 
I would rather not take anymore apprentice for a long time. we already trained more, more, more than enough and I would rather have that extra action to do research, build stuff, help out local cult exc
MrHobbit said:
Apprentices are hardly equilavent to crafting and research. Snorri has trained nine apprentices. While the Quest has trained five. As far as I as concerned what you propose will only lead to character bloat and the cheapening of the Apprentice system.
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also this
 
Alratan said:
I'd say that Turn 41 is a fair milestone to go back to having apprentices. We released them in Turn 33, and having seven decades without apprentices is a very long time. I don't think we've ever not crafted anything or not done any research for that long, which this would be equivilent to. THat schedule would, by my reckoning, allow us to do the Cult commissions and have completed the current Alchemy research we have visible to us.
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Pffft no. Go back to four actions the moment we get five?

I'd really rather not, especially when the only difference for our Apprentices is that they might get lucky and be able to roll for an Alchemy specialty after we grab Eltharin and the Almanacs. Akazit seen there in our list is most definitely not the only part of this particular project, its basically unlocking the field for us.

And, and, we don't even need new apprentices to pass on alchemy knowledge once Snorri has it at an acceptable level to him. We already have three we could do that to, which will become five in a century or two, and Snorri will pass it onto them without any further input needed from us as players.

Intentionally pinching our action count the moment we have an action free from Grom to attempt to solve something we already have solved, the passing on of Alchemy knowledge, when we could be using that extra action to use our traits at a level of effect and efficiency we haven't had before is dumb.

I do think we could grab more apprentices later, but turn 41 is way too early.
 
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Jreengus said:
So, on the one hand I want to get the basket done before Valaya leaves so I'm happy to do it before the armour commission, but on the other hand I don't think it's likely to help with the commission itself so I don't think it's essential to do it before hand. I'd be ok with rearranging stuff but you'll have to convince the others who want it to help with the armour.
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Splitting the actions would allow the runes to be applied to 5/12 actions worth of armour, since Snorri is unlikely to use one of the 2 new runes on every armour anyway that should be quite close to full benefits.
Not sure there is much more I can say to convince the armourers, from what I remember that argument was close to getting ugly and I don't want to restart it.

The main point of the action splitting is to have some wriggle room in case something comes up in turn 39/40 (Yorri, a campaign, etc.) while maintaining the overall progress if nothing happens.
Putting 3 actions into the basket in turn 38 turns the research into a single action project. This almost guarantees that it will be completed as soon as we have a spare action which is either turn 40 or 42. Valaya will hopefully still be around by then.
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
Turn fifty is thirteen turns away not seven as we're just finishing up turn thirty-six now.
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As Bungie suggested, I am working from the assumption that we will be doing both the Valaya and Gazul requests, and so will not have any extra actions before turn 42 to begin with. After that, I am guessing that getting significant progress on Alchemy will be a project equivalent to Rune Metal so far. Between that and the other big ticket projects that the thread wants to work on, that takes us somewhere close to turn fifty.
 
My view on apprentices is that we should nab some after the Ancestor gods disappear, and we should use the time until then grinding rep and researching Akazit with the end goal being that we will get the AG's seal of approval on our work into Akazit before they leave. This will give us the leeway needed to potentially form it into a guild distinct from the Runesmiths down the line without to much grumbling.
 
Smartphone said:
My view on apprentices is that we should nab some after the Ancestor gods disappear, and we should use the time until then grinding rep and researching Akazit with the end goal being that we will get the AG's seal of approval on our work into Akazit before they leave. This will give us the leeway needed to potentially form it into a guild distinct from the Runesmiths down the line without to much grumbling.
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I don't think Snorri will be able to found a Guild, period. He is pretty much a hermit and doesn't really play politics. While founding a Guild is something that I could see taking up 2 actions every turn for a few centuries.
 
MrHobbit said:
I don't think Snorri will be able to found a Guild, period. He is pretty much a hermit and doesn't really play politics. While founding a Guild is something that I could see taking up 2 actions every turn for a few centuries.
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I think those are two different things.

One is ability, the other is willingness.

Snorri may or may not in distant future become able to create a new Guild.

IF that occassion arises, there's probably gonna be a vote whether Snorri does so or not.
 
I'm against taking any further apprentices. Five is enough, and I'd rather give soulcake the space to develop those characters than add more.
 
Jreengus said:
@soulcake can we put building runes on/in Snorri's workshop?
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I'm not gonna mechanically track that barring a few exceptions like an anvil or something along those lines. At least for effects that you want to be applied to the stuff you make. I mean you can make it for sure, but don't expect the improvements it'll add to stuff you make to have enough of an effect to say, bump it a tier or something. That's almost solely the realm of gear you wear, tools you use, traits you have etc.

Im basically saying a very strong but soft no to "fill the workshop with banners, statues or idols that improve our crafting ability in various ways" or turning the Workshop into that, at least mechanically. Narratively, let fly. Building large-scale Runework to affect a large area isn't out of question, in fact its something Im tinkering with rn tbh, but nothing like that if you catch my drift.
 
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Out of curipsity, does the entrance to our workshop have some kind of giant rune that pours either burning flames or molten lava over anyone trying to breech the entrance? Because that honestly sounds amazing to me, and not metagaming to make a better workshop in the slightest. Just a killier one!
 
soulcake said:
I'm not gonna mechanically track that barring a few exceptions like an anvil or something along those lines. At least for effects that you want to be applied to the stuff you make. I mean you can make it for sure, but don't expect the improvements it'll add to stuff you make to have enough of an effect to say, bump it a tier or something. That's almost solely the realm of gear you wear, tools you use, traits you have etc.

Im basically saying a very strong but soft no to "fill the workshop with banners that improve our crafting ability in various ways" or turning the Workshop into that, at least mechanically. Narratively, let fly. Building large-scale Runework to affect a large area isn't out of question, in fact its something Im tinkering with rn tbh, but nothing like that if you catch my drift.
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I was thinking about putting ancestor runes on our workshop to get the building effects that are noted in the ancestor rune info post. Would that work?
soulcake said:
Where Smednirs Rune is most obvious is when it's inscribed on a structure. Metalwork that leaves the building is better, edges are honed faster, plates fit together more easily, less metal is wasted, the forges burn hotter, more consistently and use just a tad less fuel. It's here that you have to disregard the placebo as a possible explanation.
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soulcake said:
On buildings, war machines that leave a workshop bearing his Rune are better. Material is less likely to have imperfections, measurements are sharper and more precise, just little nudges and pushes that build into great things.
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soulcake said:
On structures, which is almost universally a Runesmith's workshop there has been a traceable improvement on the quality of goods leaving the shop in question, but again it could simply be because Runesmiths are a perfectionist sort and the Rune of Thungni is less seeni n the workshops of Journeymen and Younger Masters who may not have learned the Rune yet.
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MrHobbit said:
Apprentices are hardly equilavent to crafting and research. Snorri has trained nine apprentices. While the Quest has trained five. As far as I as concerned what you propose will only lead to character bloat and the cheapening of the Apprentice system.
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Indeed, apprentices are arguably significantly more important than either, as they can go on to do their own research can craft their own runes. However, I think it's fair enough to consider them as roughly comparable categories.

Snorri has made nineteen creations of note and only trained five apprentices. He's falling well behind on the apprentice front. Teaching more apprentices doens't cheapen the apprentices that have been trained before. Ask any teacher whether teaching another student 'cheapens' the value of their previous classes and they'll correctly look at you like you're mad.

And after apprentices graduate I expect most of those characters to fade from the story as Fjolla has largely done. They'll move on with their own lives, quite possibly in other parts of the Karaz Ankor and we'll just very occasionally hear news of what they're up to, just as we'll here about what the people we make runic items for are doing with them. I think that if we want to consistently hear detail about what other characters like that are doing we'll have to invest actions in them, and that means actually having apprentices around for Snorri to interact with because he's teaching them. I think not having apprentices will just mean we don't have those kind of personal interactions, rather than taking apprentices causing character bloat, it's that having apprentices s what will keep Snorri from becoming a hermit and locking himself up in his workshop not interacting with people.

Generally, being a teacher means that you need to let your students go after you've taught them. You don't cling on them, you find joy and validation in each new batch that comes along.
 
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Alratan said:
Indeed, apprentices are arguably significantly more important than either, as they can go on to do their own research can craft their own runes. However, I think it's fair enough to consider them as roughly comparable categories.

Snorri has made nineteen creations of note and only trained five apprentices. He's falling well behind on the apprentice front. Teaching more apprentices doens't cheapen the apprentices that have been trained before. Ask any teacher whether teaching another student 'cheapens' the value of their previous clases and they'll correctly look at you like you're mad.

And after they graduate I expect most characters to fade from the story as Fjolla has largely done. They'll move on with their own lives, quite possibly in other parts of the Karaz Ankor and we'll just occasionally here news of what they're up to, just as we'll here about what the people we make runic items for are doing with them.
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Snorri has trained nine apprentices. The Quest oversaw the training of five. Every Runesmith and especially the Runelords are always going to have created more Cool Stuff than they are going to have trained apprentices.

The point is, having more apprentices forces soulcake to give less time to each apprentice, which is what we've seen with Fjolla. I find that proposition extremely unpleasant. As we train more and more, soulcake is just going to abstract it away more and more, which is what we've seen with Karstah and Nain compared to our earlier three Beardlings. It will get more impersonal as time goes on, and it will get more and more of the questers sick and fucking tired of sacrificing 10 actions that could be used for research and getting more research avenues to proc our traits.
 
Jreengus said:
I was thinking about putting ancestor runes on our workshop to get the building effects that are noted in the ancestor rune info post. Would that work?
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Wouldn't Snorri already be using those? We had to spend actions on runing/building our workshop IIRC and he should at least have Thungni's rune.
 
Honestly, considering that Snorri has trained 9 apprentices, had 3 of them become Master Runesmiths for sure, and the two currently Journeyman Runesmiths can still do any runework that doesn't need a Master Rune...

I'd say he's definitely done his duty to ensure that the ranks of the Runesmiths grows. Especially as I find it likely that at least one of our current trained Master Runesmiths will become a Runelord.

I also think we're likely to take a couple more apprentices on at some point. But I also agree that for the current time, we have done our duty there. So now is the time to focus on advancing the ability of the Dwarves by advancing the Gromril metal chains, and developing a Dwarven knowledge of Alchemy. With likely a few side projects here and there.
 
Pyro Hawk said:
Honestly, considering that Snorri has trained 9 apprentices, had 3 of them become Master Runesmiths for sure, and the two currently Journeyman Runesmiths can still do any runework that doesn't need a Master Rune...

I'd say he's definitely done his duty to ensure that the ranks of the Runesmiths grows. Especially as I find it likely that at least one of our current trained Master Runesmiths will become a Runelord.

I also think we're likely to take a couple more apprentices on at some point. But I also agree that for the current time, we have done our duty there. So now is the time to focus on advancing the ability of the Dwarves by advancing the Gromril metal chains, and developing a Dwarven knowledge of Alchemy. With likely a few side projects here and there.
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When our newest batch of apprentices has apprentices, we can try our hand at taking three apprentices.

Let me show you how it's done, beardlings :V
 
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