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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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BungieONI said:
This turn, we do 3 and get 5 into Rune Metal and one into Defense in Depth. Next turn we do 3 and get another 5 and one into Girded in Metal and finish Rune Metal and get... something, we don't know what. We've paid for it by Defense In Depth pt 3 not being complete on turn 11, sitting at 2 actions remaining, and the Warmachine request not being complete. Or some other combination of those three. We would then have to do 2 actions on Defense in Depth, one on whatever replaced Girded in Metal (Possibly not completing it) and one on Warmachines. That'd finish Warmachines and Defense in Depth 3 before turn 12.

But if we focus on defense then we can finish Defense in Depth Part 3 now with overflow, along with Girded in Metal. Then work on whatever replaces Girded in Metal on turn 10, and the next part of the Defense in Depth chain if there is one, or the Warmachine and the next part of Defense In Depth. On Turn 11 there's whatever request replaces Warmachines or the thing that replaced Girded in Metal, or multiple other options. More layers and defense requests completed means we're safer when the sieges start, and can happily just while away more time with research than if we spend time on research now and gimp the number of defense requests we actually complete before turn 12.

Basically, I am valuing Defense as waaaaaaay more valuable than research right now. Particularly research that is pure knowledge, that we'd then have to research and build proper infrastructure to actually use. And in terms of the gates being left weak vs magic, they'd be made out of Gromril and Stone already magically resistant materials and Snorri isn't an idiot and knows daemons use magic. Runes of Spelleating, or Spellbreaking are par for the course.
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The gates will be done before turn 12 either way, one of them though is going to have a master rune combo of f-off magic on it which is chaos main way of breaking through our defenses. No hellcannons at this time period.

Basically my thoughts
Turn 9- 3 rune metal pt 3, 1 girded in metal (this finishes)
Turn 10- 3 rune metal pt 3, 1 on the difficult warmachine
Turn 11- at least 2 on defense in depth pt 3 with the gromil and stone slab for a gate this time backed with our new master rune, could go to all 4 to make the combo on the gate and all really stick

In this case we are doing research that is highly likely getting us an anti-magic Master Rune, we can then apply that to the gates for defense part 3 with part 4 of the defense chain applying to defenses behind part 3 we still have time to work on those. But in this case we have crafted a Legendary Gate using our shiny new Master Rune.
 
BungieONI said:
Basically, I am valuing Defense as waaaaaaay more valuable than research right now. Particularly research that is pure knowledge, that we'd then have to research and build proper infrastructure to actually use. And in terms of the gates being left weak vs magic, they'd be made out of Gromril and Stone already magically resistant materials and Snorri isn't an idiot and knows daemons use magic. Runes of Spelleating, or Spellbreaking are par for the course.
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If we put Spell eating and Spellbreaking, we might want Master Rune of Valaya or the Rune of Warding as the third.

Rune of Valaya weakens demons and resists magic resistance. While the rune of warding makes the gate stronger by absorbing the magic.

Master Rune of Spite also combines nicely. Though i'd put something else... Spellbreaking and Demon slaying? Break spells and hit demons that attack the gate.
 
Void Stalker said:
The gates will be done before turn 12 either way, one of them though is going to have a master rune combo of f-off magic on it which is chaos main way of breaking through our defenses. No hellcannons at this time period.

Basically my thoughts
Turn 9- 3 rune metal pt 3, 1 girded in metal (this finishes)
Turn 10- 3 rune metal pt 3, 1 on the difficult warmachine
Turn 11- at least 2 on defense in depth pt 3 with the gromil and stone slab for a gate this time backed with our new master rune, could go to all 4 to make the combo on the gate and all really stick

In this case we are doing research that is highly likely getting us an anti-magic Master Rune, we can then apply that to the gates for defense part 3 with part 4 of the defense chain applying to defenses behind part 3 we still have time to work on those. But in this case we have crafted a Legendary Gate using our shiny new Master Rune.
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I'd go at least 3 on defense in depth turn 11, so that our Gromril trait procs.
 
wrecksalot said:
I was unaware that Defense in Depth part 3 and 4 would dissapear if not done right now, I was under the impression that between the King with a Legendary Weapon, his hammerers with Gromril armor, and the many dwarven fortifications we have already built that the hold won't explode in the next 2 turns and we can then do the Inner Hold Defenses properly.
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Which is not what I'm saying.

Void Stalker said:
The gates will be done before turn 12 either way, one of them though is going to have a master rune combo of f-off magic on it which is chaos main way of breaking through our defenses. No hellcannons at this time period.

Basically my thoughts
Turn 9- 3 rune metal pt 3, 1 girded in metal (this finishes)
Turn 10- 3 rune metal pt 3, 1 on the difficult warmachine
Turn 11- at least 2 on defense in depth pt 3 with the gromil and stone slab for a gate this time backed with our new master rune, could go to all 4 to make the combo on the gate and all really stick

In this case we are doing research that is highly likely getting us an anti-magic Master Rune, we can then apply that to the gates for defense part 3 with part 4 of the defense chain applying to defenses behind part 3 we still have time to work on those. But in this case we have crafted a Legendary Gate using our shiny new Master Rune.
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What about the other requests we could have been doing on Turn 10 and 11 that replace Defense In Depth pt 3, Girded in Metal, and the Warmachine. My point to both of you is that if we spend three actions on Rune Metal, on two turns, that is at least two defense oriented requests we can't do or even know exist. I don't want to pay that opportunity cost, particularly when the Gate is going to be made out of Pure Gromril anyway if we can manage it and the purification Master Rune is about pulling impurity out of the Gromril when we're forging it/working with it to refine it into a more pure state. To actually make use of that more pure state's benefits though would require infrastructure we don't have time to build.

The kind of Rune you're looking for we already have, and it's the Master Rune of Valaya. E: Case in point it went on Karaz A Karak's gates, for the purpose you are describing.
 
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Ferdiad said:
Man I wonder how much shit we've missed out on by essentially ignoring our masters mystery box option. I'm resigned to it never being taken before Chaos arrives at this point.
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Hopefully our master's caches will still be around if we don't choose to take it before Chaos fully erupts all over the world. Though, I have my doubts about that as Chaos running literally roughshod over everything kind of tends to ruin a lot of things. Taking it once would be nice as it was one of the main rewards we were given for choosing Kraka Drak, and it would at least show us in general how the mystery boxes will work, though I am assuming they will likely be rolled for.

But I understand the necessity of using our rather limited actions to give us the best possible chance of staving off Chaos, though I don't think the Underway will be getting to us anytime soon, nor will we be building the Ungruvalk to get access to a port on the Sea of Claws, so we may be cut off soon.
 
Japanime said:
Hopefully our master's caches will still be around if we don't choose to take it before Chaos fully erupts all over the world. Though, I have my doubts about that as Chaos running literally roughshod over everything kind of tends to ruin a lot of things. Taking it once would be nice as it was one of the main rewards we were given for choosing Kraka Drak, and it would at least show us in general how the mystery boxes will work, though I am assuming they will likely be rolled for.
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They are rolled for, its in the option text.

And yeah. It'd have been nice to go over them, but hey, world won't let us. But I understand the desire, hence why I made a variation that does poke one.
 
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Eh, we haven't started the defenses yet so I would be fine with dining the research first too before it as long as we do the Girdled action this turn.

We intended to do the research soon anyway right?
 
Man the King feels like an awesome guy. Making smart decisions managing the hold and killing things. Makes me want to outfit him with everything we can.

soulcake said:
[ ] [Simple] Girded in Metal: King Otrek has come to you with a request to engrave Runes on the Gromril armour of his royal guard, or Huskarls as members of the hold also call them. These doughty elders formed from his honour guard and the best warriors of the other clans seconded to his personal defence. The position is one of great honour for these dwarfs and their clans and rewards great. It is only part of the greater armament program King Otrek is undertaking, as he has commissioned many runesmiths for a variety of tasks, but the lives of these dwarfs and by extension his own, he only dares entrust to you. There is no rush, these are dwarfs still armed in Gromril armour and weapons after all. [Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other Will proc.
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Does this only include the honor guard or will the king also get his own suit? Do we need to overflow to do that or would it be something else?

I want him to have something either equal or superior to what we have, including the anti-magic gear.

Also what does the King think of Trollslayer? I mean I know that whatever it hits emds up exploding but I would like a sort of review on it performance. Does it work just as well on Demons? What about armored targets? How many runes of protection could it break through in one swing?

lol, I dont need to know all of that but I would love to actually see it used in a fight or something.
 
BungieONI said:
Which is not what I'm saying.


What about the other requests we could have been doing on Turn 10 and 11 that replace Defense In Depth pt 3, Girded in Metal, and the Warmachine. My point to both of you is that if we spend three actions on Rune Metal, on two turns, that is at least two defense oriented requests we can't do or even know exist. I don't want to pay that opportunity cost, particularly when the Gate is going to be made out of Pure Gromril anyway if we can manage it and the purification Master Rune is about pulling impurity out of the Gromril when we're forging it/working with it to refine it into a more pure state. To actually make use of that more pure state's benefits though would require infrastructure we don't have time to build.

The kind of Rune you're looking for we already have, and it's the Master Rune of Valaya. E: Case in point it went on Karaz A Karak's gates, for the purpose you are describing.
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Why ever do research? We could have just been doing full requests since quest start and already have the defenses done by that line and be working on more weaponry and defenses, because really it never ends, there is always some new defensive wrinkle, more dwarves to outfit with runed weapons, more warmachines to equip with runes or specialized warmachines for our defenses. We do research to open up new capabilities and the purity aspect of pure gromil is eliminating the Chaos present which is the foundation of the enemies magic. If we have the Master Rune (Valaya as you indicate) than that means we are opening up some new combo to remove Chaos. That is the sort of breakthrough that I want on our gates.

And from research we know that Pure Gromil can be tainted, so over time that gate is no longer going to be Pure Gromil, by doing rune metal part 3, we make a gate that will last. So yes I will delay the next line of requests if that means the current ones can be done at a higher level thanks to finishing the next tier of research.
 
BungieONI said:
They are rolled for, its in the option text.

And yeah. It'd have been nice to go over them, but hey, world won't let us. But I understand the desire, hence why I made a variation that does poke one.
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I'd vote for it.

Considering the uptick of daemon sightings this turn, which to me is either a hint by the QM about Chaos soon being unleashed or simply the rolls by the Slann slowly beginning to falter in containing Chaos, I think we really do need to focus on actions that will yield us more immediate bang for our buck in staving off the coming onslaught. To me I think opening at least one of these caches would give us some more useful reagents or possibly maybe hints about the environment that may aid us later. While I do think finishing the Rune Metal Research tree is important, it's not looking to be completed anytime soon from what I can see, especially not with all of the infrastructure needed to utilize the Master Rune, as I think Chaos will come before all of that.
 
Void Stalker said:
Why ever do research? We could have just been doing full requests since quest start and already have the defenses done by that line and be working on more weaponry and defenses, because really it never ends, there is always some new defensive wrinkle, more dwarves to outfit with runed weapons, more warmachines to equip with runes or specialized warmachines for our defenses. We do research to open up new capabilities and the purity aspect of pure gromil is eliminating the Chaos present which is the foundation of the enemies magic. If we have the Master Rune (Valaya as you indicate) than that means we are opening up some new combo to remove Chaos. That is the sort of breakthrough that I want on our gates.

And from research we know that Pure Gromil can be tainted, so over time that gate is no longer going to be Pure Gromil, by doing rune metal part 3, we make a gate that will last. So yes I will delay the next line of requests if that means the current ones can be done at a higher level thanks to finishing the next tier of research.
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Good points but the worry is Rune Metal pt.3 is probably not the end of that chain and even if it is it will probably take another to be able make enough of the stuff for the gate or to make the Adamant Master Rune to use on it instead.
 
Abhishek M said:
Good points but the worry is Rune Metal pt.3 is probably not the end of that chain and even if it is it will probably take another to be able make enough of the stuff for the gate or to make the Adamant Master Rune to use on it instead.
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We get benefits for completing each section though, and in this case something that stops/draws out Chaos taint to leave something Pure in the metaphysical is a big boon with the Chaos onslaught coming soon. We also currently have Pure Gromil, which is what we can burn favor to use on the gate and with our knowledge from Part 3 ensure it remains Pure and stops any attempts to decay and weaken the gate.
 
I feel bad for not doing greedy heart yet, but the stuff we were talking about using it for is all after we finish the Rune Metal research

I think my vote may be based on what the Girded in Metal overflow would do, would it make more armor? In which case I would say explore, does it make the armor we rune better than it would be otherwise? Then I'd say we do the overflow
 
Weirdo said:
I feel bad for not doing greedy heart yet, but the stuff we were talking about using it for is all after we finish the Rune Metal research

I think my vote may be based on what the Girded in Metal overflow would do, would it make more armor? In which case I would say explore, does it make the armor we rune better than it would be otherwise? Then I'd say we do the overflow
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It's fine. A T5 material isnt something to use that fast without making sure it's the best possible way anyway. Besides it will last a few centuries if need be.
 
Abhishek M said:
Eh, we haven't started the defenses yet so I would be fine with dining the research first too before it as long as we do the Girdled action this turn.

We intended to do the research soon anyway right?
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We intended to do the research before we realized a horde of daemons was on the way.

Void Stalker said:
Why ever do research? We could have just been doing full requests since quest start and already have the defenses done by that line and be working on more weaponry and defenses, because really it never ends, there is always some new defensive wrinkle, more dwarves to outfit with runed weapons, more warmachines to equip with runes or specialized warmachines for our defenses. We do research to open up new capabilities and the purity aspect of pure gromil is eliminating the Chaos present which is the foundation of the enemies magic. If we have the Master Rune (Valaya as you indicate) than that means we are opening up some new combo to remove Chaos. That is the sort of breakthrough that I want on our gates.

And from research we know that Pure Gromil can be tainted, so over time that gate is no longer going to be Pure Gromil, by doing rune metal part 3, we make a gate that will last. So yes I will delay the next line of requests if that means the current ones can be done at a higher level thanks to finishing the next tier of research.
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*sigh*

Why ever do research? Because its useful, in many situations. But its not useful in crisis scenarios when it prevents us from doing things that are directly related to staying ahead of the crisis. Yes, we can finish the Rune Metal pt 3 before turn 11 and we can devise the Master Rune to purify it. Can't stick that and the Master Rune of Valaya on the gate, and the Master Rune of Valaya which we have is the proven tool for this particular problem you are trying to address based on canon about Karaz A Karak's gates. So the Master Rune we create won't be helpful for what you want. It won't help save lives, until we can devise the infrastructure to make Metaphysically Pure Gromril (Probably Adamant). Which is several turns away, even if we finish it before turn 11.

If we had no Daemon sightings done in such a way that it is clear as day a warning from Soulcake to get our butts in gear I'd be jumping on Rune Metal Part 3 right now. But we have Daemon sightings so, that ain't well advised in my opinion. So, trade it out for more defense.

Japanime said:
I'd vote for it.

Considering the uptick of daemon sightings this turn, which to me is either a hint by the QM about Chaos soon being unleashed or simply the rolls by the Slann slowly beginning to falter in containing Chaos, I think we really do need to focus on actions that will yield us more immediate bang for our buck in staving off the coming onslaught. To me I think opening at least one of these caches would give us some more useful reagents or possibly maybe hints about the environment that may aid us later. While I do think finishing the Rune Metal Research tree is important, it's not looking to be completed anytime soon from what I can see, especially not with all of the infrastructure needed to utilize the Master Rune, as I think Chaos will come before all of that.
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Pretty much this yeah. Rune Metal is important, the Heart is important, hell the Lights research is important. But it can come after we've finished at least Defense in Depth 3 and have the Murder Maze. And as I've been saying, taking Rune Metal in exclusion to defense requests is contraindicated by our current crisis, or potential crisis if you want to be generous.


It's been two hours.

[] Plan Almost Out of Time, But Not Metal
-[] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 4 turns.
-[] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 6 turns.
-[] [Simple] Defence. In. Depth Pt3: [Cost: (4-1) =3 actions] Productivity Like No Other Will proc. 2 Actions.
--[] Petition the Hold, Gromril: Petition King Otrek and the Council of Elders to consider the merits of turning the main gate into a giant slab of Runed Gromril and Stone. The cost is massive, but the defence and the prestige are...incredible. [Cost: 15 Favour with the Hold and 10 Favour with King Otrek]
-[] [Simple] Girded in Metal:[Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other Will proc. 2 Actions.
-[] Order: Invisible Diamonds.
 
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[X] Plan Almost Out of Time, But Not Metal

[X] Plan Almost Out of Time, But Not Metal or Places to Be

[X] Plan We Are Almost Out of Time, Go NOW.
 
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[X] Plan Almost Out of Time, But Not Metal
-[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 4 turns.
-[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 6 turns.
-[X] [Simple] Defence. In. Depth Pt3: [Cost: (4-1) =3 actions] Productivity Like No Other Will proc. 2 Actions.
--[X] Petition the Hold, Gromril: Petition King Otrek and the Council of Elders to consider the merits of turning the main gate into a giant slab of Runed Gromril and Stone. The cost is massive, but the defence and the prestige are...incredible. [Cost: 15 Favour with the Hold and 10 Favour with King Otrek]
-[X] [Simple] Girded in Metal:[Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other Will proc. 2 Actions.
-[X] Order: Invisible Diamonds.


And for those who wanted it so the tally doesn't get confused.
[] Plan Almost Out of Time, But Not Metal or Places to Be
-[] Odd Places 1/10: Look on Master Yorri's map and try and discover one of his marked locations. The locations will certainly be odd, but whether they'll be useful will remain to be seen. [Cost: 1 action] Roll for usefulness. 1 Action.
-[] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 4 turns.
-[] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 6 turns.
-[] [Simple] Defence. In. Depth Pt3: [Cost: (4-1) =3 actions] Productivity Like No Other Will proc. 2 Actions.
--[] Petition the Hold, Gromril: Petition King Otrek and the Council of Elders to consider the merits of turning the main gate into a giant slab of Runed Gromril and Stone. The cost is massive, but the defence and the prestige are...incredible. [Cost: 15 Favour with the Hold and 10 Favour with King Otrek]
-[] [Simple] Girded in Metal:[Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other Will proc. 1 Actions.
-[] Order: Invisible Diamonds.
 
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[X] Plan Almost Out of Time, But Not Metal

When we're under siege we will hit everything for the rune of metal...and hopefully everything will grow in time.
 
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