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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Voikirium said:
You can really tell it's a dwarf thread by all the unearned arrogance we have towards fighting the elves.

Daily reminder that:
-The absolute dregs of their society managed to conquer the better part of a continent
-That said exiled dregs managed to make the nr.2 Superpower of the setting, rivaled only by the other Elven Superpower
-That the war was, if anything, more ruinous for the dwarfs than the elves, since the Elves are still absolute masters of Ulthuan since the Sundering while every year the Dwarfs lose more and more territory and holds to the Goblins, itself possible because the War of the Beard ruined them

Perhaps more importantly, if I was Soulcake reading this, I'd pencil in some form of "Elf tech knockoff" in much the same way the Griffons are our dragon knockoffs.
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is their any chance we can still avoid the war?

also is the gazual order gonna to become the national internal police of dwarves(in hersey matters?)
 
Woltaire said:
is their any chance we can still avoid the war?

also is the gazual order gonna to become the national internal police of dwarves(in hersey matters?)
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There was a post a ways back where the GM laid out what we could and could not change, and the war of the beard was in the technically possible, but very unlikely category IIRC. So it's possibble, but don't hold your breath.
 
Woltaire said:
is their any chance we can still avoid the war?

also is the gazual order gonna to become the national internal police of dwarves(in hersey matters?)
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I hold out hope because the second the war starts the discussion around elves is going to evolve from obnoxious to unbearable, but that really would be more Soulcake's call, wouldn't it?
 
Woltaire said:
also is the gazual order gonna to become the national internal police of dwarves(in hersey matters?)
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I'm pretty sure the canonical Order of Guardians was exactly that in canon, which is what this Gazul order seems to be a precursor of. Of course, depending how things go, they might end up with significantly less focus on the undead.
 
Woltaire said:
is their any chance we can still avoid the war?

also is the gazual order gonna to become the national internal police of dwarves(in hersey matters?)
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We are highly unlikely to be able to avert the war. Part of it is because of our position (in the far north) and there's very little ability for us to interfere in the events.

Like, we *might* be able to get a visit by Malekith during his 'walk the earth' phase before he found the Crown of Power and let his ambition/bitterness about the events on Ulthuan go to his head (before that happened he was one of the best champions of Order around and gained the respect of Dwarfs, enough to be called Dwarf friend).

There's *a lot* of factors that went into making the war inevitable/unavoidable.

Like for example, the unwillingness of the Elves in their pride and shame to not tell the Dwarfs about their civil war and the splitting of their people. If the Dwarves knew about the Sundering it could have allowed a better outcome.

But the first and foremost precipitating factor is the stubbornness of the Dwarves and the pride of the Elves.
 
Voikirium said:
You can really tell it's a dwarf thread by all the unearned arrogance we have towards fighting the elves.

Daily reminder that:
-The absolute dregs of their society managed to conquer the better part of a continent
-That said exiled dregs managed to make the nr.2 Superpower of the setting, rivaled only by the other Elven Superpower
-That the war was, if anything, more ruinous for the dwarfs than the elves, since the Elves are still absolute masters of Ulthuan since the Sundering while every year the Dwarfs lose more and more territory and holds to the Goblins, itself possible because the War of the Beard ruined them

Perhaps more importantly, if I was Soulcake reading this, I'd pencil in some form of "Elf tech knockoff" in much the same way the Griffons are our dragon knockoffs.
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Keep in mind a few things.

One elves had a massive advantages in mobility, force projection and the fact their logistical base was not also under attack.

They had uncontested aerial supremacy because of their dragons, and other sundry flying beasts and magic, which the dwarves outright did not have at that time.

The dwarves were only ruined because the Slaan decided to basically delete entire parts of the empire, in concert with them exhausting themselves against the elves AND opening the way for greenskins to assault them en masse.


This was when there were no "Northern" or "Eastern" holds, when there were not Branakroki who have been upticking like mad since their natural predators got smacked by angry short hairy things, and without any palce to really go to if the Slaan decide to muck up the mountains. Now we have all those things. I don't believe the Elves will fold, or that we'll even launch anything more than a utterly token raid on Ulthuan at best, but we can contest them a lot more strongly now, which in turn can turn into one or two things. One a quick and bloody fight that makes the elves realize that maybe this was not the best idea and to chill, cutting the war short, or turn it into a massive meatgrinder that makes the previous one look tame.

Regardless looking down on dwarves in a dwarf thread is kinda... kinda odd. Like really man you didn't expect dwarven beard combing to happen?
 
aceraptor said:
Like for example, the unwillingness of the Elves in their pride and shame to not tell the Dwarfs about their civil war and the splitting of their people. If the Dwarves knew about the Sundering it could have allowed a better outcome.
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Of course, that'll involve quite a bit of hypocrisy on the dwarves part this time around, given that we seem to be doing the exact same sort of secret keeping with the chaos dwarves. Would be interesting if we actually manage to reform Malekith, but then the chaos dwarves do basically the same thing from our end. We might get a reversed war of the beard, with (chaos) dwarven raids on the elves being the root cause, rather than the other way around. Because I highly doubt a dwarven high king being any more willing to admit the civil war than the elven king was.
 
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The absolute masters of Ulthuan since the Sundering had... a very fat Goblin entirely wreck a province beyond repair?

Seems a tad of an odd definition of absolute master. Or do Orcs just not count?
 
Voikirium said:
-That the war was, if anything, more ruinous for the dwarfs than the elves, since the Elves are still absolute masters of Ulthuan since the Sundering while every year the Dwarfs lose more and more territory and holds to the Goblins, itself possible because the War of the Beard ruined them
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Incorrect. While all the shade being thrown at the elves is indeed unwarranted, the Dwarves were recovering from the war just like the elves were. Then some dumb lizard got the idea to adjust the continents, causing a massive earthquake followed by endless tides of Skaven attacking. Along with endless tides of Orks also attacking. I doubt the elves would be doing so well if an endless horde of dark elves jumped them right after the war. I am aware that the dark elves did jump them. They were not an endless horde where you can kill 100 to 1 and still lose badly.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
Of course, that'll involve quite a bit of hypocrisy on the dwarves part this time around, given that we seem to be doing the exact same sort of secret keeping with the chaos dwarves. Would be interesting if we actually manage to reform Malekith, but then the chaos dwarves to basically the same thing from our end. We might get a reversed war of the beard, with (chaos) dwarven raids on the elves being the root cause, rather than the other way around. Because I highly doubt a dwarven high king being any more willing to admit the civil war than the elven king was.
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How is that hypocrisy when the one who shaved beards and humiliated the peaceful envoys asking for Weregild or at least an explanation were the Elves directly?
 
TehChron said:
How is that hypocrisy when the one who shaved beards and humiliated the peaceful envoys asking for Weregild or at least an explanation were the Elves directly?
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Hm... perhaps hypocrasy was the wrong word. Irony perhaps works better? Mostly find the idea of the dwarves being the ones who start the war by refusing to admit to a civil war amusing.
 
I want the War of the beard/War of Vengeance to be averted naturally after all it does in the end is weaken two different nations that fight against Chaos and anything/one seeking to destroy the world. Thus it should be in our interests to avert said war if at all possible but we are also playing as a dwarf and not just any dwarf but a dwarf runelord of Kraka Drakk meaning that in the end our primary objective should be to seeing the Dwarven people thrive first and foremost everything else is second to that. At least for me that is and honestly if the Karak Ankor does go to war with the Elves(still is a long ways off) I want to see what Snorri can do by then and how much butt we could kick and hopefully it would be us that created the Anvils of Doom or at least helped in there creation.
 
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aceraptor said:
Like, we *might* be able to get a visit by Malekith during his 'walk the earth' phase before he found the Crown of Power and let his ambition/bitterness about the events on Ulthuan go to his head (before that happened he was one of the best champions of Order around and gained the respect of Dwarfs, enough to be called Dwarf friend).
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yeah, we need to get that crown and smash it with the force of several meteor

fuck that bullshit and the mess it cause
 
Yeah, pre Crown Malekith was an asshole, but not full on malevolent insane dillweed. And let's be honest, the Dawi are not free of assholes either.
 
Hey everyone, pls don't get to nuts on the Elf hate. I'd rather not have us get close to a Rule violation, yeah?
Dwarfs are not, despite their fervent wishes, a perfect group of individuals or culture.

Intense stubbornness, obsession over the settling of any debts to the point of self destruction, intense material interest, a distrust of the novel, and a psyche that either means they endure and bury issues or break-in completely unsalvageable ways.
 
Voikirium said:
You can really tell it's a dwarf thread by all the unearned arrogance we have towards fighting the elves.

Daily reminder that:
-The absolute dregs of their society managed to conquer the better part of a continent
-That said exiled dregs managed to make the nr.2 Superpower of the setting, rivaled only by the other Elven Superpower
-That the war was, if anything, more ruinous for the dwarfs than the elves, since the Elves are still absolute masters of Ulthuan since the Sundering while every year the Dwarfs lose more and more territory and holds to the Goblins, itself possible because the War of the Beard ruined them

Perhaps more importantly, if I was Soulcake reading this, I'd pencil in some form of "Elf tech knockoff" in much the same way the Griffons are our dragon knockoffs.
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I'm not even speaking from a position of of dwarf arrogance but condescension aside a bad arguments a bad argument.
  1. They conquered and settled parts of a continent with no organized resistance. The Druchi have feats, owning naggaroth isn't one
  2. Literally after they schemed for the reigning super powers to cripple one another in a bid to exploit it. A bid that resoundingly failed.
  3. It weakened both parties badly. One got attacked in the rear by greenskins and devastated by earthquakes. The other dealt with civil war that tore the continent and left entire cities emptied. It's a faulty assertion that Dwarfs lost- just that geographically their position was more exposed. Especially since we know all the Elf colonies that were destroyed or abandoned, but I don't know if any major Karaks fell in the War of the Beard
  4. I'm glad this isn't your quest then. The Sauron with the deathstar style of writing is trite, lame, and missing the point. Look at how Soulcake has explored the differences in Hashut's cult now than it's been smashed in the East. It didn't get something 'to make up for the loss', it hasn't been reduced to a zero-sum game, they're a different foe fighting a different enemy (us) than they were in canon. Now neither faction can't prefer to pretend the other doesn't exist. That's what I expect to see against the Elves. Moreover- I suspect if the Griffons facilitate greater communication and travel to Ulthuan, the Elves might not be able to hide the Sundering. Which is far more interesting than 'nah, Elves have developed engineering further than canon for inexplicable reasons'.
I'm far more excited to see how we cooexist with the elves than how we fight them- but the argument 'nah, the Elves were only pretending to lose a major war and get pushed off a continent- they're the real winners' just doesn't hold water in OTTL or TTL.
 
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Karugus said:
I'm glad this isn't your quest then. The Sauron with the deathstar style of writing is trite, lame, and missing the point. Look at how Soulcake has explored the differences in Hashut's cult now than it's been smashed in the East.
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It's a bit late for me to be arguing any of the other points and I'll gladly confess that I am, at best, a man with half the facts trying to argue against an untruth that keeps showing up of "the elves are paper tigers" variety, but to be clear, I mostly don't do that sort of thing either, it was 95% meming and 5% 'hm that's very presumptive, innit...'?

Like in my Estalia quest the players have reached the position of "could probably take the entire rest of the Peninsula thanks to a smart alliance, an inherited professional army and their improvement to said army" and I have no intent of taking that away from them because I get that's dumb.
 
soulcake said:
Hey everyone, pls don't get to nuts on the Elf hate. I'd rather not have us get close to a Rule violation, yeah?
Dwarfs are not, despite their fervent wishes, a perfect group of individuals or culture.

Intense stubbornness, obsession over the settling of any debts to the point of self destruction, intense material interest, a distrust of the novel, and a psyche that either means they endure and bury issues or break-in completely unsalvageable ways.
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Imma back this as someone who'd rather see things go Tolkien with there being some natural...rough edges due to species difference but overall being able to work together rather than the hating or overtougting one or the other.

From what I remember of the books, after chaos was beaten back the first time, both the Elves and Dwarves got more than a bit full of themselves and their own 'superior culture' with some shade being thrown on the other because different. It took Malekith actively sabotaging and setting things up to fan that into mutual animosity and skirmishing...and a ***RESOUNDLY*** dumb decision by one elven king in particular to set them off in full blown war.

Both sides borked up **hard** and the only ones that 'won' were Malekith and his bands of murder hobos in their Fantasy fortress trailers aka the black arks :p

We already have the Branrokki being the first true allies the Dwarves made as opposed to the elves *and* doing so in such a way that iirc made a serious impression on the dwarves and lessened the impact of the Elven offer.

We got the Northern Holds properly connected to the Dwarven Empire this time around as well as a properly fortified Underway as opposed to the exposed and unreinforced one of canon, which will make it harder for the holds to be cut off and for the greenskins and skaven to get in hopefully.

The Chaos dwarves have become actual cultists instead of a full civilization, thus in a way keeping the Dwarves on their toes and not getting complacent about duplicity and treachery that allowed Malekith to canonically set up his nonsense.

And the Brana also make a good start and go between with the Elves and Dwarves in that they can interact well with each and at least sort of relate it to the others.

Avoiding the War of Vengeance will be difficult but it won't be impossible imo and is something I want to actively work towards.

I'd much rather see the 2 races living in peace than not.
 
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