"Connections" are annoying.
If she severs the connection between Sabrina and the thread, that might be amusing/oh god why.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
If she severs the connection between Sabrina and the thread, that might be amusing/oh god why.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"Mami, Mami, look! My brain damage's been cured! I'm FREE!""Connections" are annoying.
If she severs the connection between Sabrina and the thread, that might be amusing/oh god why.
*Kirika antimagics the effect*
"YEE-What were we talking about? Nevermind, I have tea to microwave. Did you know I speak, like, dozens of languages? Ooh, dibs on Kazumi's hat. That'll make Sakura believe I'm not a Witch!"
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...Homura's gotta have at least one nuke in that shield of hers, right?
Does the JSDF even have nuclear capability?
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And probably not, unless she's used loops to travel elsewhere in the past, or timestop-ambushed American nuclear assets moving through the region (pretty unlikely to have happened). Most iterations of Homu with nukes I've seen in the fandom have been looping for a lot longer than this one has.
EtchedSteel
*mumble mumble*
- Location
- Lima. Peru
Kirka likes Sabrina just the way she is.
Mostly because being the only
Emdeman
The Atlantic Federation
- Location
- Australia
Fake edit: Some the earlier stuff was written before I saw later quotes. I'm too lazy to change the whole thing but feel the point's still pertinent. The later stuff I answered there so read the whole thing before replying. Lots of tone shifts.
One example of a consequence, availability of free cleansing do not solve geographical issues. So seeds are still needed for MG's who can't travel hundreds of miles easily or practically. So the focus turns to increasing the number of grief seeds you have. Covertly steal seeds from other MG's, surprise gank them from behind anonymously and then mug them. Or, a sufficiently ruthless group could just exterminate an isolated MG group and take all their seeds. Who would know otherwise if there were no survivors?
The favours we ask should be light and not onerous most of the time, demonstrating our benevolence through acts. They could even be passed off as good deeds. The only time we ask a heavy favour should be in a desperate situation if theres a natural catastrophe or where we are personally at risk. It would be in their self-interest to help keep their meal ticket alive, again its entirely up to them to come. Sure some won't due to reasons, but we'll have enough gratitude that many will.
To take the cynical point of view, it could be said that much of the aspects of the meguca world are a result of human nature which aren't going to change because of us or our abilities. It'll just be channelled in different ways, if we ignore it and assume everyone acts like a paragon then that human nature will only channel into different aspects we might want to avoid.
Even if most veteran meguca want a normal life we currently do not possess that capability on even a medium scale. We need a lot of science to get to that point. All we'd do now is ease the burden on some groups. I get your point and mostly agree with it. Less hunting means more witches, though there are less new witches coming in.
Yours is an optimistic scenario that I want to reach, but I feel like there needs to be some stepping stones in the middle before we can get there. MG's won't change overnight but if they take us seriously and respect us, we can roll out our innovations to a receptive audience with less violence and bloodshed.
Your overreacting if you think continuously asking Mami her opinion on things is going to make things a lot better. It just irritates me when successive votes of ask Mami about this, she is right there next to us if Firn wants to her to share an insight she will do it. Forcing Firn to give Mami's opinion on everything in the update will be tedious for him. But I see no harm in indulging you currently on this issue so theres not point arguing on this further. I was talking about the general consult others, form a plan from what they say and do it type of votes (not Mami specifically). They come off as lazy and if we keep doing it and making the QM do things for us it will come back to haunt us.
We are not going to change their mindsets by offering unlimited magic. It will increase the greed and make it more underhanded.
One example of a consequence, availability of free cleansing do not solve geographical issues. So seeds are still needed for MG's who can't travel hundreds of miles easily or practically. So the focus turns to increasing the number of grief seeds you have. Covertly steal seeds from other MG's, surprise gank them from behind anonymously and then mug them. Or, a sufficiently ruthless group could just exterminate an isolated MG group and take all their seeds. Who would know otherwise if there were no survivors?
The point of favours is to make them indebted to us. That way they will be less likely to do some we disapprove off and we have more leverage to peacefully change their more awful habits. The function of the favours act in a similar manner to the conditions like not acting nefarious according the Sabrina's definition of the word. In the latter way, the MG's know which rules they can muddy or get around whereas in the former way, they will be more cautious of acting a way the obviously idealistic Sabrina disapproves of since they don't know. Both cases don't work if one party is acting irrationally so theres no point of arguing that.
The favours we ask should be light and not onerous most of the time, demonstrating our benevolence through acts. They could even be passed off as good deeds. The only time we ask a heavy favour should be in a desperate situation if theres a natural catastrophe or where we are personally at risk. It would be in their self-interest to help keep their meal ticket alive, again its entirely up to them to come. Sure some won't due to reasons, but we'll have enough gratitude that many will.
I see where you are coming from. Again I don't feel this is a big issue of contention so I'll drop it. I already mentioned my main beef with it above and it was not character specific.
Every MG is not going to come into proximity of Sabrina, in fact I doubt we can even reach most meguca. Most info on us will be heard through the grapevine, that is not conducive to building a good impression of Sabrina. We cannot succeed at an idealistic route if people continually sabotage us if they think there is gain from it.
To take the cynical point of view, it could be said that much of the aspects of the meguca world are a result of human nature which aren't going to change because of us or our abilities. It'll just be channelled in different ways, if we ignore it and assume everyone acts like a paragon then that human nature will only channel into different aspects we might want to avoid.
Using Oriko to spy on many MG groups strikes me as a bad idea. There will be too many meguca to watch performing their daily lives, I don't see it as practical. The precog is good for a strategic threat against us but it is not wide enough to cover every incident any random MG encounters. Oriko would go mad first. Notice how in the current conflict Oriko did not know that details of what happened, just the effects it had like how many people were involved. We had to find out the context ourselves.
Even if most veteran meguca want a normal life we currently do not possess that capability on even a medium scale. We need a lot of science to get to that point. All we'd do now is ease the burden on some groups. I get your point and mostly agree with it. Less hunting means more witches, though there are less new witches coming in.
Yours is an optimistic scenario that I want to reach, but I feel like there needs to be some stepping stones in the middle before we can get there. MG's won't change overnight but if they take us seriously and respect us, we can roll out our innovations to a receptive audience with less violence and bloodshed.
Thank you for addressing my concerns and writing such a detailed response. Not mentioning how we can cleanse seeds is a big secret to keep and forgoes a considerable amount of good. But I feel the cons edge out the pros at the moment, besides I think it will be temporary at best. *crosses fingers on the results of grief science*
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1. We've barely consulted Mami at all, even lately. That's our reason for concern. Again, it'd be lazier not to ask, but less helpful character-wise. And it WILL help, even as part of an overall effort. We need to get her to not be scared of disagreeing with us/having her own opinion/telling us when we're wrong, or we're a complete failure at helping her.
2. I disagree that greed'll be a significant factor in the long run. Survival is a motivator for a lot of the worst issues with the current system, and when we take that away, there'll be less reason for that kind of behavior.
3. Favors are a non-starter, as this mess proves. They're one-time, limited, and can be readily ignored on a whim. Far better to just try and influence their behavior indefinitely via goodwill and showing a better way.
4. Oriko's powerset is for emergencies and potential significant threats mostly, yes.
5. Yes, we'll need to work to make our optimistic scenario work, but if we don't even try to do better than the current system, right from the start, then we're just sinking to their level rather than bringing them up. We've already resorted to intimidation where we had to, let's not add to that unnecessarily with the "favors"- which'll imply all sorts of unwanted things based on their past experiences.
2. I disagree that greed'll be a significant factor in the long run. Survival is a motivator for a lot of the worst issues with the current system, and when we take that away, there'll be less reason for that kind of behavior.
3. Favors are a non-starter, as this mess proves. They're one-time, limited, and can be readily ignored on a whim. Far better to just try and influence their behavior indefinitely via goodwill and showing a better way.
4. Oriko's powerset is for emergencies and potential significant threats mostly, yes.
5. Yes, we'll need to work to make our optimistic scenario work, but if we don't even try to do better than the current system, right from the start, then we're just sinking to their level rather than bringing them up. We've already resorted to intimidation where we had to, let's not add to that unnecessarily with the "favors"- which'll imply all sorts of unwanted things based on their past experiences.
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- Location
- Somewhere near L1... I think
Does she know about the megucas being liches, because if yes then all of my nope.
They're our go-to guide for "Grief and meguca Science: how NOT to do it" so...yes, yes they do.
Isn't that also the series where
they use parts of one girls witch to create clones of her as a way of trying to bring her back or something?
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeppers. They're gonna know. More than we do, maybe.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
- Pronouns
- Any
You're demonstrably wrong. We are right in the middle of a situation where survival wasn't a proximate concern but greed, among other things, led to atrocities.
This mess proves nothing. We took out the prospective employer, and had the employee comprehensively outgunned. Expecting favors is an excellent means of altering the behavior of someone who wants an ongoing business relationship with you. Everyone is going to want an ongoing business relationship with us, because it's incredibly lucrative.
You, on the other hand -
- aren't looking to make any substantive efforts to control their behavior at all.
Not all favors are equal, and claiming they're uniformly evil is laughable. Expecting assets to oppress a bunch of hapless locals is a bad thing. Asking them to provide seed couriers, adopt ethical practices or halt unethical ones, funnel us intel, act as ambassadors in other areas or support other agents are all reasonable expectations and unambiguously good, valuable services.
It isn't greed that caused this. It's Akiko being completely insane and the others' misguided loyalty and friendship.
The point is that favors are demonstrably worthless as shown by all the good it did with Akiko, where building positive relationships with as many of them as possible will help in a worst case scenario.
Favors are simultaneously extreme enough to be bad PR and lead to second thoughts and narrow enough to be unhelpful for our purposes. Besides, I'd rather just flat-out ask them for those things later rather than trying to wedge a favor-shaped lever in from the start for no real benefit.
The point is that favors are demonstrably worthless as shown by all the good it did with Akiko, where building positive relationships with as many of them as possible will help in a worst case scenario.
Favors are simultaneously extreme enough to be bad PR and lead to second thoughts and narrow enough to be unhelpful for our purposes. Besides, I'd rather just flat-out ask them for those things later rather than trying to wedge a favor-shaped lever in from the start for no real benefit.
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Muramasa
Best Girl
Err... it was a measure of greed that insured that loyalty in the first place. It's because of Akiko that the Sendai group lives quite comfortably. I'm going to disagree with you there.
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I'm reading "She's done right by us" as loyalty more than greed- ie: "she's helped keep us alive". Regardless, I think loyalty to their friend was a major-if not the only-factor for them flat out rejecting our offer/ trying to get someone else to negotiate.
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FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
- Pronouns
- Any
That doesn't demonstrate worthlessness. It demonstrates that, if we're taken out of the picture and our assets are both unable to help us and inadequately compensated, they may not remain loyal. This isn't exactly a surprise.
They're bad PR only with godawful spin management, in no way 'narrow', and not being upfront about what you want is neither good PR nor 'no-strings-attached'.
What it shows is that favors aren't worth the breath it takes to demand them relative to working on hearts and minds when it comes to dealing with another Sendai situation. Demanding favors actively gets in the way of hearts and minds.
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FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
- Pronouns
- Any
'Hearts and minds' does not mean 'no strings'. Expecting ethically sound tasks to be undertaken in exchange, as and when necessary, is both reasonable and something we should be upfront about. 'Hearts and minds' involving no concessions, no obligations, no expectations, just
would be incredibly dumb.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
- Pronouns
- Any
...
You are for making a, and I quote, 'indefinite' commitment.
Both options are business transactions, whether you want to admit it or not. Both are highly favorable for them. But yours is not favorable for us or our agenda, since it immediately loses us any possible leverage. If we make an offer and then add smallprint, it'll hurt our rep a lot more than expecting certain limited in-kind services upfront.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Has the UG been lich-bombed yet?
EtchedSteel
*mumble mumble*
- Location
- Lima. Peru
Remember they took Rin's SG when we arrived to Sendai, so yes.