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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[] Cannongerbil

Looks good to me.
 
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@Cannongerbil
That rewrite doesn't consult Mami to start with, which I thought was something we were trying to move away from? Also, favors? That phrase sets off alarm bells, goes directly against being diplomatic, and sabotages attempts at building long term bridges.

Cannongerbil said:
Uh, Ugo, you're doing that thing again where we ask for someone's opinion and then steamroll ahead with what we've got planned without even considering what they have to offer.
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The idea was to run the plan by Mami and adjust as needed, but I see that may have been unclear.

Cannongerbil said:
The main issue is that if we give them basically carte blanche infinite magic no strings attached, that could cause some major problems down the line if they start abusing that. I know we would cut off infinite cleansings the moment word reaches us of what they've done, but I'd rather not enable them to do so in the first place. The line preceding that already establishes our motive, and the favours bit is to drive home the point that the services that we offer won't be entirely without strings.
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Then we spell that out rather than being vaguely sinister. Say we'll cleanse within reason and if they don't abuse it, but don't go "YOU OWE US NOW YOU OWE US NOW" like we're some kind of meguca mafia. The idea of "favors" is just awful, and fairly useless. We can't enforce it if we ever actually need it, as shown by Akiko's "favor" here, and it burns goodwill that we'd get by not attaching such a vague, paranoia-inducing major condition on our help.

"Favors" is not a good way to start things off with the Toyko group at all.
 
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'Lement said:
Just realized.

"Sabrina, the teenage witch" is from a show.

Sakura has been pulling Ramiel on us!
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We should ask Sakura if that's why she keeps calling us Witch girl. It'll be like when Sabrina assumed Hiroko and Masami knew she was with Mami because of her clothes.

I also want to see how well Sakura deals with us going from Grief-bending terror to brain damaged meguca at the drop of a hat. :D
Ugolino said:
Say we'll cleanse within reason and if they don't abuse it, but don't go "YOU OWE US NOW YOU OWE US NOW" like the meguca mafia.
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...but Yakuza!Madoka looks so cool! :p

I wonder what Homura would think of that outfit on Madoka?
 
I agree with you about favors, but it's really hard to come up with the right wording for what we actually want, because our conditions are not simple given how most MG groups live.

As far as I can tell, it seems most MG groups use a loose network of alliances supported by these so-called "favors". When Akiko offered us the favor, she was mentally elevating us to the same level as other territory-controlling groups that she deals with. That the favor exists is what she & other group leaders use as a pretense to ask things of the groups that aren't explicitly mercenary (Ueda's group does not seem to be explicitly mercenary), and is more like dressing on the final agreement than anything that's actually considered as part of the price.

What we're looking for are conditions: restrictions on actions and an agreement to act a certain way. And honestly, we don't actually know what we want at this time. So I think we need to send her home and work this out later, using the final resolution of this Sendai conflict as a baseline for what we should expect from those we offer free cleansing in the future.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I agree with you about favors, but it's really hard to come up with the right wording for what we actually want, because our conditions are not simple given how most MG groups live.

As far as I can tell, it seems most MG groups use a loose network of alliances supported by these so-called "favors". When Akiko offered us the favor, she was mentally elevating us to the same level as other territory-controlling groups that she deals with. That the favor exists is what she & other group leaders use as a pretense to ask things of the groups that aren't explicitly mercenary (Ueda's group does not seem to be explicitly mercenary), and is more like dressing on the final agreement than anything that's actually considered as part of the price.

What we're looking for are conditions: restrictions on actions and an agreement to act a certain way. And honestly, we don't actually know what we want at this time. So I think we need to send her home and work this out later, using the final resolution of this Sendai conflict as a baseline for what we should expect from those we offer free cleansing in the future.
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I'd rather lay the groundwork now. "We're willing to cleanse your group from time to time and any others if you don't act crazy or do anything abhorrent" covers the bases and doesn't have unpleasant implications- and honestly, I really don't want to lower us to the other MG group's level by using "favors".

It's a small thing, but I want us to change the way things work and encourage cooperation even for something like this. It'll help get across that we want cooperation rather than this tit-for-tat nonsense everyone's using as well.
 
Changing votes. I somehow missed that Cannongerbil re-did his/her vote, and thought that it was still this one:

[x] Keep Akiko unconscious
[x] Update Chouko. Ask them to meet up at the radio tower and pick up any bodies she finds along the way.
[x] Ask Ueda for her side of her story. Explain after done.
-[x] Give her the offer of providing free grief seed cleansings to her and her group, in return for their non-interference. Give her time to consult and discuss. Don't rush her to a decision.
[x] Telepathy Rin. Ask for her location, provide quick summary, ask if she needs help.
[x] Once the University group gets here:
- [x] Consult with everyone on our next course of action
- [x] Point: We want to gather the incapacitated girl's bodies
-[x] Bring up the idea of letting Sakura go to help out.
-[x] Go ahead and execute once we've got a definite plan.
 
NSMS said:
Changing votes. I somehow missed that Cannongerbil re-did his/her vote, and thought that it was still this one:

[x] Keep Akiko unconscious
[x] Update Chouko. Ask them to meet up at the radio tower and pick up any bodies she finds along the way.
[x] Ask Ueda for her side of her story. Explain after done.
-[x] Give her the offer of providing free grief seed cleansings to her and her group, in return for their non-interference. Give her time to consult and discuss. Don't rush her to a decision.
[x] Telepathy Rin. Ask for her location, provide quick summary, ask if she needs help.
[x] Once the University group gets here:
- [x] Consult with everyone on our next course of action
- [x] Point: We want to gather the incapacitated girl's bodies
-[x] Bring up the idea of letting Sakura go to help out.
-[x] Go ahead and execute once we've got a definite plan.
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Your thoughts on consulting Mami before anything else? I thought we wanted to move away from unilateral decisions? It's more for her sake than for practicality, but asking can't hurt, right?
 
Ugolino said:
Your thoughts on consulting Mami before anything else? I thought we wanted to move away from unilateral decisions? It's more for her sake than for practicality, but asking can't hurt, right?
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Hmm... I don't see any harm in it.
 
The phrasing relies on the others having a similar understanding as we do. It's assuming they use the same mental framework we do: fighting wars is abhorrent, killing civilians is abhorrent, doing horrifying experiments is crazy, skirmishing over territory might not be abhorrent but it's wrong. But other MG groups have demonstrably different mental frameworks, so such conditions need to be carefully thought through and made explicit.

Ugolino said:
Your thoughts on consulting Mami before anything else? I thought we wanted to move away from unilateral decisions? It's more for her sake than for practicality, but asking can't hurt, right?
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It shows a lack of understanding on the Mami issue. We should consult her at the times when we truly value her opinion, not for the sake of it.

If she proposes a plan that is notably different than our own, does the vote account for that? It doesn't. That indicates to me that we plan on asking her, assuming she agrees with what we already think, and plowing ahead anyway.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
The phrasing relies on the others having a similar understanding as we do. It's assuming they use the same mental framework we do: fighting wars is abhorrent, killing civilians is abhorrent, doing horrifying experiments is crazy, skirmishing over territory might not be abhorrent but it's wrong. But other MG groups have demonstrably different mental frameworks, so such conditions need to be carefully thought through and made explicit.



It shows a lack of understanding on the Mami issue. We should consult her at the times when we truly value her opinion, not for the sake of it.

If she proposes a plan that is notably different than our own, does the vote account for that? It doesn't. That indicates to me that we plan on asking her, assuming she agrees with what we already think, and plowing ahead anyway.
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I'd expect a cutoff if that does happen- and disagree. Consulting her more often shows we value her opinion in general. Added a line anyway.

Also favors seem to be a one-time thing. That isn't what we want, at all.

[]Run the plan by Mami. Adjust as needed.
[] Keep Akiko unconscious
[] Update Chouko. Ask them to meet up at the radio tower and pick up any bodies she finds along the way.
[] Ask Ueda for her side of her story. Explain after done.
-[] Give her the offer of providing free grief seed cleansings to her and her group, in return for their non-interference. Give her time to consult and discuss. Don't rush her to a decision.
[] Telepathy Rin. Ask for her location, provide quick summary, ask if she needs help.
[] Once the University group gets here:
- [] Consult with everyone on our next course of action
- [] Point: We want to gather the incapacitated girl's bodies
-[] Bring up the idea of letting Sakura go to help out.
-[] Go ahead and execute once we've got a definite plan.
 
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Suggestion for a new vote:

[x] Reply to Chouko: Akiko's de-gem'ed and Sakura's captive.
[x] Keep Akiko unconscious
[x] Run the basic outline (gather at the radio tower to discuss what to do now, suggest recruiting Sakura to collect incapacitated meguca more quickly) of the plan by Mami. If she has no objections continue on, if she has any suggestions incorporate them or remove parts of the plan as necessary.
[x] Update Chouko. Ask them to meet up at the radio tower and pick up any bodies she finds along the way.
-[x] Ask her how bad the damage is.
[x] Ask Ueda for her side of her story. Explain after done.
-[x] Tell her that we're willing to cleanse anyone's soul gems (demonstrate/explain cleansing if necessary), but only if they aren't going to use that magic to assault other Magical Girls or other nefarious purposes.
[x] Telepathy Rin. Ask for her location, provide quick summary, ask if she needs help.
[x] Once the University group gets here:
- [x] Consult with everyone on our next course of action
- [x] Point: We want to heal any civilians.
- [x] Point: We want to gather the incapacitated girl's bodies
-[x] Bring up the idea of letting Sakura go to help out, but don't force the issue if they seem reluctant.
-[x] Go ahead and execute once we've got a definite plan.
 
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Yeah, no problems with that vote.


[x] Keep Akiko unconscious
[x] Run the basic outline (gather at the radio tower to discuss what to do now, suggest recruiting Sakura to collect incapacitated meguca more quickly) of the plan by Mami. If she has no objections continue on, if she has any suggestions incorporate them.
[x] Update Chouko. Ask them to meet up at the radio tower and pick up any bodies she finds along the way.
-[x] Ask her how bad the damage is.
[x] Ask Ueda for her side of her story. Explain after done.
-[x] Give her the offer of providing free grief seed cleansings to her and her group, in return for their non-interference. Give her time to consult and discuss. Don't rush her to a decision.
[x] Telepathy Rin. Ask for her location, provide quick summary, ask if she needs help.
[x] Once the University group gets here:
- [x] Consult with everyone on our next course of action
- [x] Point: We want to heal any civilians.
- [x] Point: We want to gather the incapacitated girl's bodies
-[x] Bring up the idea of letting Sakura go to help out, but don't force the issue if they seem reluctant.
-[x] Go ahead and execute once we've got a definite plan.
 
Ugolino said:
Your thoughts on consulting Mami before anything else? I thought we wanted to move away from unilateral decisions? It's more for her sake than for practicality, but asking can't hurt, right?
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What @SWB said about trusting Mami. I'd definitely trust her insight here. She's got way more experience dealing with meguca fights than us. Presumably that comes packaged with experience regarding the surrender/aftermath talking bits as well.
 
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Krecart said:
What @SWB said about trusting Mami. I'd definitely trust her with this though. She's got way more experience dealing with meguca fights than us. Presumably that comes packaged with experience regarding the surrender/aftermath talking bits as well.
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re: SWB
Except that just asking her (with adjustments implied by the act of asking, honestly, why would we ask without adjusting our approach as needed) shows that we value her opinion, rather than just assuming again.
 
Great, now were the limpet. Asking Mami's opinion on every little thing. :p But seriously, good improvements all around. The favours issue was worrying.

[X] NSMS
 
Ugolino said:
re: SWB
Except that just asking her (with adjustments implied by the act of asking, honestly, why would we ask without adjusting our approach as needed) shows that we value her opinion, rather than just assuming again.
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Eh? I was mostly reffering to you saying we should ask her "mostly for her sake than for practicality" when she's the veteran with a rep that extends to Tokyo. This bit specifically:
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It shows a lack of understanding on the Mami issue. We should consult her at the times when we truly value her opinion, not for the sake of it.
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is what I was trying to echo.


[X] NSMS
 
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