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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Nerevar said:
As long as we take appropriate precautions, I'm fine with doing that. But I am going to insist on said precautions.

Once again, Meseeks are beings for whom existence is suffering, and who will do whatever it takes so they can finally die and end that suffering. The entire concept is a moral nightmare, much like most stuff in Rick and Morty. We should avoid that concept as a base for any of our constructs.

We won't know that until we make one, which is why we should prepare for the possibility they will be Dedolore's familiars even if that's unlikely. We'll want a containment sphere of grief in a vacuum to deal with the risk of it accidentally igniting the atmosphere like Sabrina could do casually at any time, enough backup to be able to take on what might be on the level of a Clara Doll, and before we even consider it, we need to try feeding Grief to a normal familiar to make sure that a familiar that inherited our Grief bending wouldn't be able to just instantly mature itself into a Witch without needing to kill people. And of course, we need Sabrina plugged into a Clear Seed and our friends ready to kill the familiar in case the feedback we got when we tried to hyjack a familiar hits us with one we created and we're not mentally up to breaking the connection when it happens.

I still think we should do more basic research and just asking our friends questions about familiars before we try to make our own, since Sabrina is the most dangerous person to be doing that sort of experiment.

I also think we should avoid going for "familiar" in our initial griefhax attempts in the direction of "familiars". That is to say, "fly" instead of "fly familiar", and see if what comes out is a familiar or if it's something else. If it is a familiar, we'll have learned something and established a level of control over the form of the familiar that we wouldn't otherwise have been sure of. If it isn't a familiar, we'll be no worse off for having made the attempt.

Might also be worth considering that a Witch Kiss might be a safer thing to attempt than a standard familiar. Our analysis of a Witch Kiss indicated it had a similar structure and composition to a familiar, but we've never heard of a witch kissed individual maturing into a Witch or a Witch Kissed individual becoming independent of its Witch, thought that again is something we ought to ask more knowledgeable people about before jumping to conclusions.

Either way, we never actually figured out how to make a familiar when we were researching the matter earlier. So doing more observation of existing familiars is required before we'll even be in a position to try to create one of our own anyway. Similar to how we needed to observe barriers in detail before we could figure out how to make one ourselves.
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Im fine with precations, Homura I think is the best option still with her timestop and Mami is Mami.

For the Meeseks box I actually think we could still use it, we HAVE been able to modify how witch constructs work before like making fire not actually burn at all so making it so that the meeseeks dont actually feel pain should be doable aswell. If not thats why the pokeball is the next best option.

Im feeling confident about them being Sabrinas since so far EVERYTHING sabrina has made has been hers, her barrier, her constructs, everything. The quote about the barrier being hers was what really sold me on this. Doesnt mean we shouldnt be careful but I am more certain about it, and thats not even counting the fact that our soulgem is intact, so its not just our witch in there, there seems to be more evidence pointing at familiars being ours than not.

Still dont get where the idea of them having our grief bending comes from, it just never made sense to me, and even then, so long as we use enchanted grief to avoid a trance and HOLD it tight it shouldnt even be a problem, like the idea that it could outgrief bend us just doesnt make sense.

The mental thing does seem a bit more worrying but in that case we would ha e our friends in standby to break us out but if the familiars truly belong to sabrina this should be a non issue.

I think we know more about familiars than our friends unless its combat related, like they dont know about the whole 'made from the heary of magical girls before they witch out' thing so I dont think they will be able to tell us much at all... Niko on the other hand...

The problem with the fly test is that it will most likely end up as a normal witch construct like our chibi and not an independent agent like we want, the idea of going beyond our range would only work with familiars I think.

Sabrina was actually pretty confident she could remove a witch kiss, its likely she could make something similar and would make for a good test to see if something witch kissed could leave our range, so I do think we should do this first, maybe with a cat or something or a bird.

Im pretty certain Sabrina could make one if she tried, she DID get a very good look on how they work and the way they work is what makes me hopeful they could leave our range. Like we watched that chiken in detail before trying to grab it.

Edit: Also to be extra safe, when we do try to experiment with stuff, I think we should avoid associating it with our witch asmuch as possible, like isntead of calling it a witch kiss call it... Idk Sabrina's peck? Something like that, cause if we go with the mentality of 'lets make a witch familiar' we are gonna get a WITCH familiar, instead we should go with 'lets make a Sabrina familiar' and leave witch out.
 
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DataSnake said:
I agree in general, but I'd go with "relay bug" instead of "fly."
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While making a relay is something I've wanted to try for a long time, it should really be independent of attempting to make a familiar, the first time at least. That way, if only one of the experiments fails, we know where we went wrong. I also want to see if we can give somebody a construct that lets them control some Grief. Our previous attempts never involved handing the control off to somebody else, just creating a "control" Griefhax; the error that we got then was not a "I can't do this" migraine, it was "I can't get this to work this way", so it should be possible to do something with "control" if we try alternate approaches.
 
Lopezelpesado said:
No issue trying anyways but we are most likely gonna end up with an empty witch construct like our chibi.
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Sometimes, it can be very important to test something, even when we can say what the result would most likely be. Firn's ideas of what works our own overlap to some extent, but there's a reason we've debated this endlessly. I really want to ask Yuki to let us use Warehouse-kun as a lab where all of our Science! minded allies can get together and work on stuff. Sharing our ideas with them, and their ideas on what to try, is unlikely to be a waste of time. That we know some of the things alternate versions of some of these people can do with their powers could be a big help.
 
Wyrd said:
Sometimes, it can be very important to test something, even when we can say what the result would most likely be. Firn's ideas of what works our own overlap to some extent, but there's a reason we've debated this endlessly. I really want to ask Yuki to let us use Warehouse-kun as a lab where all of our Science! minded allies can get together and work on stuff. Sharing our ideas with them, and their ideas on what to try, is unlikely to be a waste of time. That we know some of the things alternate versions of some of these people can do with their powers could be a big help.
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As I said, no issues with trying, im just saying it based on our previous experience making something similar.

The familiars we want to make will be essentially be different from normal familiars, normally familiars are made literally the moment a meguca witches out and can even be influenced by their surroundings the moment they witch out (Like with Nagisa and her Nurses) but Sabrina is still very much alive and non witched out and the grief she controls all has traces of magic in it unlike normal grief witches use.

Any familiar we make should be more similar to a Sayaka clone than an actual familiar since it would carry a bit of us instead of our witch.

I have the suspicion that any magicl girl could actually make a familiar, Mami has actually tried to make something like that before with dolls but only managed to make them move a bit but with no life (which is incredibily sad) but I think what she was missing back then was using emotion based magic instead of just regular magic.

Familiars are made by a magical girls heart after all, so she needed to put her heart to, or emotions in this case, for it to actually work.

Atleast thats my theory on it, though I also want to check out those teddy bears that girl with the museum has since they are pretty much freaking familiars and knowing how they work would help a LOT. Next time we meet with the asurano girls we should inspect one.

Also a question, Yuki has a lot of control over her buildings... Could she change the time dilation inside of one?
 
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Lopezelpesado said:
Also a question, Yuki has a lot of control over her buildings... Could she change the time dilation inside of one
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I doubt it, not because of how her power works, but because of what Firn would want to deal with. Too much time to focus on Science! could detract from the people, and this story is all about the people.

We definitely need to discuss so much of what we've learned with our allies, such as Clear Seeds reacting differently depending on the emotion you infuse into the magic, meaning there are likely other effects that change by infusing magic with emotion. Some of the things we want to test could be things our allies already know, too. We don't really have anybody arguing against doing this, so much as we have failed to win votes to actually follow through, at least in the time I've been here. I bring it up, again, to improve the odds of us remembering the next time it would actually make sense to have this conversation.
 
Wyrd said:
meaning there are likely other effects that change by infusing magic with emotion
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Sabrina never did do anything further with her angelic wings from infusing her grief control magic with Hope/Happiness.
Couldn't fly with them through normal grief control, so they were dumped for using the all-natural devilish wings, until M.O.P. became the standard mode of travel.
Here's hoping that using Hope-Infused-Magic for reality bending Grief constructs make them stop feeling Witch-y and start feeling like an Angelic/Paladin like beacon of Hope.
 
Edison_Trent said:
Sabrina never did do anything further with her angelic wings from infusing her grief control magic with Hope/Happiness.
Couldn't fly with them through normal grief control, so they were dumped for using the all-natural devilish wings, until M.O.P. became the standard mode of travel.
Here's hoping that using Hope-Infused-Magic for reality bending Grief constructs make them stop feeling Witch-y and start feeling like an Angelic/Paladin like beacon of Hope.
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Enchanted grief makes making constructs easier and with no trance (which will be great for familars) but I dont think we have tried used emotion based magic to enchant grief yet... Or anything really. There is a chance that it actually lessens the witchy feeling... Maybe, but remember that Sabrina is actually not that good with magic itself outside of grief manipulation since her wish only really focuses on grief. Like she is incredible with magic only if its related to grief I think, if she uses grief to enchant she can make pretty much any type of enchantment she wants, though with the caviet of it only working in her range, without grief she kinda sucks.

Hmmm have we ever tried using grief to enhance ourselves? Normally megucas use magic for this but what if we used grief and magic? How strong would we get?
 
Lopezelpesado said:
Enchanted grief makes making constructs easier and with no trance (which will be great for familars) but I dont think we have tried used emotion based magic to enchant grief yet... Or anything really. There is a chance that it actually lessens the witchy feeling... Maybe, but remember that Sabrina is actually not that good with magic itself outside of grief manipulation since her wish only really focuses on grief. Like she is incredible with magic only if its related to grief I think, if she uses grief to enchant she can make pretty much any type of enchantment she wants, though with the caviet of it only working in her range, without grief she kinda sucks.

Hmmm have we ever tried using grief to enhance ourselves? Normally megucas use magic for this but what if we used grief and magic? How strong would we get?
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We have used Grief constructs to enhance Sabrina. The result is an Infinity Gauntlet, with a different gem slot filled depending on the exact wording of what we were trying to enhance at the time. Further experimentation on that is needed.

As for Sabrina not being good at magic, she's just fine at generating magical energy, and with infusing that energy with specific emotions. What she lacks is the instinctual awareness of how to do things with that energy that she has for Grief, so she has little to work with beyond a month of life experience as a meguca. That's also a month experience being alive, period. Mami, on the other hand, has put a lot of time and effort into learning what she can do, so she should definitely be involved in our experiments that aren't a danger to her, whether physically or mentally. We've had enchanting sessions where we got together and each of us worked on our own projects, just with the others there for feedback, and that seems an idea that should continue.
 
Wyrd said:
We have used Grief constructs to enhance Sabrina. The result is an Infinity Gauntlet, with a different gem slot filled depending on the exact wording of what we were trying to enhance at the time. Further experimentation on that is needed.

As for Sabrina not being good at magic, she's just fine at generating magical energy, and with infusing that energy with specific emotions. What she lacks is the instinctual awareness of how to do things with that energy that she has for Grief, so she has little to work with beyond a month of life experience as a meguca. That's also a month experience being alive, period. Mami, on the other hand, has put a lot of time and effort into learning what she can do, so she should definitely be involved in our experiments that aren't a danger to her, whether physically or mentally. We've had enchanting sessions where we got together and each of us worked on our own projects, just with the others there for feedback, and that seems an idea that should continue.
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Pretty much yeah, Sabrina is an expert with grief and a novice with normal magic.

I mean more like general enhancement, like using grief to mobe faster or hit with even more strenght than with just magic.

Also there IS another example of an enhancement, we made a band that made us godlike while fighting, likely at the same level as Mami or even more. Makes you realize just how little we have messed around with grief constructs.
 
Lopezelpesado said:
I mean more like general enhancement, like using grief to mobe faster or hit with even more strenght than with just magic.
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Yes, but why would we do that when any such buff we could give ourselves is less effective than what we can do with nanogrief in our radius? We don't lose biggaton fights. We can lose certain conceptual fights, and no enhancement beats that. We can absolutely lose social fights, and using enhancements to win those is distasteful. We can lose tactical fights, and enhancements there aren't going to be applied to us (because again, radius of omnipotence).

Range improvement research is viable, though I'd figure the method is more likely to be some combination of megucas powers rather than familiars (which hits the themes of this quest better, working together with friends or directing minions?).
Familiar research... risky, but possible.

By my reckoning, a witch is just the magical girl lost in despair. Yes, Prime!Sayaka did not respond to Kyoko or Madoka... while she was overwhelmed by Grief. No sh-t she didn't respond well. I suspect were we able to drain a Witch of Grief without returning them to Grief Seed state, we might get something more comprehensible out of them. As it is, we're knocking them out rather than dealing with anything - not ideal, but better than letting them run rampant.

All that being said, it is possible that familiars, even tied to our Shadow, would not intentionally harm those we care about. Might verge on a Rebellion-esque situation, but the risk is less than commonly asserted. It remains non-zero, and indeed quite significant, especially if we are aiming for autonomy and self-sustainability.

Considering them children, on the other hand... well, there'd still be some issue of Grief not under Our Control. That's probably the biggest thing in the way of familiars and familiar-like entities in a practical sense.
 
Dantalion said:
Yes, but why would we do that when any such buff we could give ourselves is less effective than what we can do with nanogrief in our radius? We don't lose biggaton fights. We can lose certain conceptual fights, and no enhancement beats that. We can absolutely lose social fights, and using enhancements to win those is distasteful. We can lose tactical fights, and enhancements there aren't going to be applied to us (because again, radius of omnipotence).

Range improvement research is viable, though I'd figure the method is more likely to be some combination of megucas powers rather than familiars (which hits the themes of this quest better, working together with friends or directing minions?).
Familiar research... risky, but possible.

By my reckoning, a witch is just the magical girl lost in despair. Yes, Prime!Sayaka did not respond to Kyoko or Madoka... while she was overwhelmed by Grief. No sh-t she didn't respond well. I suspect were we able to drain a Witch of Grief without returning them to Grief Seed state, we might get something more comprehensible out of them. As it is, we're knocking them out rather than dealing with anything - not ideal, but better than letting them run rampant.

All that being said, it is possible that familiars, even tied to our Shadow, would not intentionally harm those we care about. Might verge on a Rebellion-esque situation, but the risk is less than commonly asserted. It remains non-zero, and indeed quite significant, especially if we are aiming for autonomy and self-sustainability.

Considering them children, on the other hand... well, there'd still be some issue of Grief not under Our Control. That's probably the biggest thing in the way of familiars and familiar-like entities in a practical sense.
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I mean, there have been a few situations were sabrina had to fight up close, having an extra omph wouldnt be amiss.

Witches are pretty much made entirely out of grief without an ounce of magic in them, cant really drain them the same way we do clearseeds without them retreating into them.

Sabrina hasnt really needed her witch at all to do the stuff she does, everything she has made has been hers, from barriers to constructs.

If we make a familiar we HAVE to make sure we are making a Sabrina familiar not her witch,if sabrina goes thinking about her familiar beong her witches then she will more likely get her witch familiar.

Make some enchanted grief to avoid trance aswell since people really believe it will have our same power (Though I dont know ANY familiar that does that) and will absolutely blow up the planet the moment its born or out grief bend us and instantly become a witch.
 
So, I don't think this has been noted by anyone in the quest yet (if so, my apologies, I haven't been keeping up terribly well), but Homura's extremely adverse reaction to learning she's responsible for Madoka's increasing potential is likely in part due to the timeloop when Madoka asked Homura to kill her rather than allow her to become a witch -- specifically because of the destruction it would cause, which she did not want. In the subsequent loops, Madoka's potential, and thus witch, and thus destruction caused, increased due to Homura's actions. Regardless of the outcome of this loop, learning about her role in Madoka's potential would mean being faced with having been responsible for something Madoka would rather die than allow to happen being made drastically worse, over and over.
 
Yeah, there's a reason Homura gives up and starts to witch out at the end of the show after a hundred loops of failing at this exact same point- learning that she was responsible for ratcheting up Madoka's potential (and thus making her fate worse every single time she loops) is the truth that can break her as surely as learning about witches breaks Mami in canon.
 
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A slightly off-topic question, but when did Kazumi get lichbombed? I've been rereading PMAS and well...

Firnagzen said:
Of course, you can't start with the lichbomb, even if it's a fact of magical girl life... Speaking of which.
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Firnagzen said:
"I don't think I know what you're talking about, but I believe you when you tell me she might know something... troublesome," she says slowly, and smiles, razor-sharp and bitter in contrast to her normal effusive bubbliness. "It wouldn't be the first time I've dealt with something like this before."

You rock backwards a little.

"I think..." she says, still slow and thoughtful. "I think Niko might know what you're talking about. She's... mentioned something like this before. She said I didn't want to know, and I trust her."

She shrugs, and gives you a more normal smile. "So I didn't ask. If my Niko says I don't want to know, I guess I don't want to know."
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implies she wasn't during the Asunaro arc, but
Firnagzen said:
"Soul Gem collectors..." Kazumi mutters, sounding vaguely disquieted. "So, kidnappers?"
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says she is now.

So I'm just checking if I accidentally skipped a part or lack reading comprehension here. Take into account that I haven't read Puella Magi Kazumi Magica so I don't know what happened in there.
 
Kebabulon said:
A slightly off-topic question, but when did Kazumi get lichbombed? I've been rereading PMAS and well...



implies she wasn't during the Asunaro arc, but

says she is now.

So I'm just checking if I accidentally skipped a part or lack reading comprehension here. Take into account that I haven't read Puella Magi Kazumi Magica so I don't know what happened in there.
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Best guess is Niko lichbombed her off screen.

We know Niko was Witchbombed but not Lichbombed when we talked and we ended up accidentally lichbombing her because we didn't consider you can be witchbombed without also being lichbombed.

We also know that when Niko figured out the Witchbomb, she offered her friends the choice to learn it or not. Presumably once we lichbombed Niko, she made a similar offer using the new information we gave her and they decided to learn the new one.

It makes sense they might have chosen differently regarding the lichbomb versus the Witchbomb, since Niko would be able to tell them basically that it's uncomfortable but not nearly as horrifying as the first thing she offered to tell them.

This would also give Niko the chance to use our standard lie about what happens when your Soul Gem goes dark in order to encourage Kazumi to be better about self-care, since thinking you'll die if your Soul Gem goes dark is way more motivating than thinking you'll just lose access to your magic like Kyubey told Sayaka happens when she asked about what happens when your Soul Gem goes dark.

It might have also come up during the attempt to capture Niko's clone, since I know one of the options we considered for restraining her was a gemsnatch. My memory isn't the best.
 
strange_person said:
Somewhere, Kyubey's ears suddenly perk up.
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Did not expect to be summoned from 2014, but I have, so that's neat.

Was very on the SCIENCE train back then. Realized eventually that this wasn't really a game which was supposed to be beaten that way, and more-or-less chose to leave it to those more in-tune with our cast and our good QM for social purposes, rather than continuing to harp on about pragmatic solutions and how to save the universe with R&D/Logistics. It seems to be going smoothly, from what I can see.
 
Higure said:
Did not expect to be summoned from 2014, but I have, so that's neat.

Was very on the SCIENCE train back then. Realized eventually that this wasn't really a game which was supposed to be beaten that way, and more-or-less chose to leave it to those more in-tune with our cast and our good QM for social purposes, rather than continuing to harp on about pragmatic solutions and how to save the universe with R&D/Logistics. It seems to be going smoothly, from what I can see.
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We have had many long discussions of Science! over the years since our last session. If more votes passed to spend time doing it, I'm sure Firn would write more material where we see the results of our experiments put to good use. For all that the story focuses heavily on the people, Science! gives those people tools to accomplish things they can't without. It's just such a long time out here to wait for the next opportunity, but like you, I don't vote on the social stuff as much, as that's not where my skills shine. When we see Yuki in a bit, I want to discuss using Warehouse-kun as a Constellation Science! lab.

If we do get one, the first thing we should make for it is some tesla coils. No mad Science! lair is complete without a few.
 
Madoka: I wish for unlimited wi...hatchoo!
Kyubey: Unlimited witches, coming right up.

{a wild Walpurgisnacht has appeared}

Homura: Would that have worked out the way she wanted it to, even if she hadn't sneezed?
Kyubey: Not really.

{Walpurgisnacht summons reinforcements}
Sabrina: *attacks Walpurgisnacht*
{2x wild Walpurgisnacht have appeared}
{Walpurgisnacht [1] is slain}
{Walpurgisnacht [2] summons reinforcements}
{Walpurgisnacht [3] summons reinforcements}

Kyubey: No takebacks, though!

{4x wild Walpurgisnacht have appeared}
Madoka: *remembers something from her math homework*
{1x Kremhild Gretchen has appeared}

Homura: *starts casting Yes Takebacks*
 
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You know, I wonder if Kyuubey (in a world with Wraiths) didn't want to say 'they'll steal your emotions' because a potential recruit might get scared off by that, could instead say 'you'll lose your magic' like how he deflects about Witching? Griefseeds do seem to lose the colorfull whatever they have in them as a Soulgem, which seems to be the closest thing we've seen to an indication of where magic is located within it. Perhaps that's part of the conceit it uses there?

Edit: Also what if when we ever do try using whatever our version of a witches kiss is, it turns out we can use that to basically give people magic powers? Witches use them to control people, but if they weren't so ruled by negative emotions could people use the power granted if allowed?
 
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