it totally happens in the PSP game through implication; namely that Mami fights a witch she already beat before (and it's a witch Kyoko also defeats independently on her own time prior to losing her family).
If you are refering to Gisela, it's clearly stated that it was the first witch Mami fought and she let it get away. She didn't defeat it the first time, which is partly why she is saddled with that guilt of hers.

Also it's completely and totally where Charlotte comes from in the anime Timeline, as the only other explanations are incredibly retarded Magical Girls dropping theirs on their way through town or Kyubey being uncharacteristically malicious.
Yeah, this is the big one. Before rebellion, everyone assumed that it was a familiar born witch, but then Nagisa happened. I suppose it could be because of Nagisa's young age, but *shrug*.

Truth is, the idea that Familar born witches grow up into an exact copy of their parent is just dumb, plus it also opens a whole new can of worms. By that logic, over time, any given city is going to be slowly dominated by one strain of witch. The witch that is most successful at fending of Magical girls is going start multiplying, to the point where a given area is going to be pretty much dominated by them. We should be seeing alot more of the same type of witch, instead of the hodgepodge that we are getting now, but I'll let Firn decide which rules his witches are operating by.

The idea that we could've stopped Nagisa is strongly implied not to be canonically impossible; if it was a 'fresh' Witch it wouldn't of needed to hatch like it did. Compare to Oktavia, who was basically IMMEDIATELY active.

Side note: according canon, by the time we came across Nagisa, she would have already contracted. Her wish was for a cheesecake to share with her dying mother, but then she realized that she could have used the wish to save her mother instead and instantly witched out. If it weren't for Oriko, we would have been dealing with a contracted Nagisa instead of Yuma.
 
[x]Look at the Witch soul while keeping barriers up. Compare with the grief specks we've seen in meguca gems.
[x]Shred the face with grief pulling and let it all into the gem when its dead. No games.

Welp that was an interesting disscution.
 
If you are refering to Gisela, it's clearly stated that it was the first witch Mami fought and she let it get away. She didn't defeat it the first time, which is partly why she is saddled with that guilt of hers.

She still ends up defeating it when Kyoko also defeats it by herself, so you haven't really solved the problem. Also, I recall there being two routes to that event on whether or not it go away. Playthroughs I've seen/had have gone both ways, though it's been over a year to be honest.

Yeah, this is the big one. Before rebellion, everyone assumed that it was a familiar born witch, but then Nagisa happened. I suppose it could be because of Nagisa's young age, but *shrug*.

Nagisa means all of jack and shit. She becomes Charlotte. Did she become THAT PARTICULAR Charlotte? Maybe, maybe not. A Familiar of Charlotte's that becomea a Witch becomes a new Charlotte.

Truth is, the idea that Familar born witches grow up into an exact copy of their parent is just dumb, plus it also opens a whole new can of worms. By that logic, over time, any given city is going to be slowly dominated by one strain of witch. The witch that is most successful at fending of Magical girls is going start multiplying, to the point where a given area is going to be pretty much dominated by them. We should be seeing alot more of the same type of witch, instead of the hodgepodge that we are getting now, but I'll let Firn decide which rules his witches are operating by.

The PSP game canonizes it, so whatever. The more important question is if Familiars become a new type of Witch, what determines their nature, names, forms, etcetera?

We also don't know if it's possible for a single 'type' of Witch to multiply in this way. For example, what if Familiars only strive to 'grow up' when their mother is dead? What if they need to be 'emancipated' from the Witch either by its death or the Witch 'letting it go'?

Side note: according canon, by the time we came across Nagisa, she would have already contracted. Her wish was for a cheesecake to share with her dying mother, but then she realized that she could have used the wish to save her mother instead and instantly witched out. If it weren't for Oriko, we would have been dealing with a contracted Nagisa instead of Yuma.

Yea, she instantly witched out. Fucking irrelevant, because if that was the case we'd of had a Witch materialize in a hospital room or whatever in a manner similar to Sayaka's insta-Oktavia, with the Witch fully able to go in seconds.

Compare to Charlotte, which was sticking in a wall for some reason soaking up grief (or whatever it was doing) and basically refused to hatch for FUCKING HOURS (It is very noticeably sunset as opposed to mid-day when Madoka comes back with Mami).

There is absolutely no fucking way that was Charlotte-Prime's birth event. Nagisa probably isn't canonically savable via Homura's loops, Firn fudged things to facilitate Sabrina's Golden End plans as far as Named Characters go.
 
Last edited:
There's a lot of leeway there, really. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Grief Seed of a magical girl who died in a hospital was found in a hospital- Nagisa might well have died in the hospital the same day. Seed hatching being universally instantaneous was never confirmed and Sayaka'd already started to "curse the world" by the time her gem went dark, while Madoka's imploded. Plus we seemed to have the same effect as Charlotte with Gertrud.

Mami certainly didn't consider a Witch hatching from a pulsing grief seed to be anything unusual.
 
Last edited:
Maybe witches have a hibernation cycle - after they use too much energy they revert to a grief seed and spend time "sticking in a wall for some reason soaking up grief".
 
There's a lot of leeway there, really. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Grief Seed of a magical girl who died in a hospital was found in a hospital- Nagisa might well have died in the hospital the same day. Seed hatching being universally instantaneous was never confirmed and Sayaka'd already started to "curse the world" by the time her gem went dark, while Madoka's imploded. Plus we seemed to have the same effect as Charlotte with Gertrud.

Not entirely sure that means much. If Nagisa insta-witched from regretting her wish then she 'cursed the world' way harder and faster than Sayaka ever could've, and Madoka's Grief Seed implodes to release the Witch. We don't see Sayaka's do that, we see it break out of the Soul Gem. And we don't see Madoka's grief Seed break out either. These are connected, but not simultaneous events.

Mami certainly didn't consider a Witch hatching from a pulsing grief seed to be anything unusual.

You mean Mami, the person who introduced the plot point of Familiars becoming Witches in the first place? :p

Maybe witches have a hibernation cycle - after they use too much energy they revert to a grief seed and spend time "sticking in a wall for some reason soaking up grief".

Maybe. Again though, this wouldn't work with the idea of Nagisa having contracted that day, since you don't hibernate immediately after birthing and then re-hatching because ugh this is stupid.

The idea of Witches hibernating is an interesting one, though, especially in conjunction with Higure's theorycrafting of Witches using humans as heat sinks for their grief. Returning to a Grief Seed is a moment of reprieve from their suffering, but a temporary one.
 
Maybe it depends on the personality of the Witch? Creating a barrier and attacking people makes sense if you're like Sayaka and "Curse the World." Manifesting as fast as possible to "get to work" makes sense for Madoka, who only wished to "Save the World," even after becoming a Witch.

Nagisa, in contrast, can be said to only "Curse Herself." Her Grief came from self hatred after making such a horrible Wish, not hatred of others and the world. It makes sense that, rather than immediately manifest and try to kill people, she would remain "dormant" as long as possible before lashing out at other in an attempt to relieve her suffering.

I do find the idea of Witches "escaping" into hibernation fascinating, however. I wish we had more case studies to work with...
 
Last edited:
hmm...does anyone know how Grief Cubes (that demons drop in LOC) work? We may be able to figure out something if we at lease know the basic on how that works.
 
hmm...does anyone know how Grief Cubes (that demons drop in LOC) work? We may be able to figure out something if we at lease know the basic on how that works.
It's never elaborated on much, as far as I can tell. I tend to assume they're concentrations of atmospheric Grief, which manifest Wraiths when at full capacity. Killing the Wraith leaves behind a "drained" Grief Cube. While these still have significant Grief within them, it is less than the Grief that was used to create the Wraith. Magi may then, presumably, transfer Grief from their Soul Gems to these partially-full Grief Cubes. Once the Cubes are almost full enough to manifest another Wraith, they are given to the Incubator.

They're inferior to Grief Seeds because they aren't a Soul-just a Grief construct. They don't generate Grief of their own, but are instead just manifestations of atmospheric Grief and the Grief of the Magi who use them for cleansing. They can't be stuck in a generator somewhere to permanently stop entropy.

For creating them...well, I'd say do it the natural way. We know Grief tries to "hold together" when it leaves our control range. Let's go find somewhere empty and drop a large amount of Grief outside of our control. If I'm right, it should develop into a Wraith, which we may then kill for its Grief Cubes. They won't supplicate Kyubey, but they do represent a stable, lasting alternative to Grief Seeds for Magi to use...if we can find a way to produce enough.

Hell, once we have a few to study, we might be able to find a way to make them without the intermediate step of creating a Wraith.
 
It's never elaborated on much, as far as I can tell. I tend to assume they're concentrations of atmospheric Grief, which manifest Wraiths when at full capacity. Killing the Wraith leaves behind a "drained" Grief Cube. While these still have significant Grief within them, it is less than the Grief that was used to create the Wraith. Magi may then, presumably, transfer Grief from their Soul Gems to these partially-full Grief Cubes. Once the Cubes are almost full enough to manifest another Wraith, they are given to the Incubator.

They're inferior to Grief Seeds because they aren't a Soul-just a Grief construct. They don't generate Grief of their own, but are instead just manifestations of atmospheric Grief and the Grief of the Magi who use them for cleansing. They can't be stuck in a generator somewhere to permanently stop entropy.

For creating them...well, I'd say do it the natural way. We know Grief tries to "hold together" when it leaves our control range. Let's go find somewhere empty and drop a large amount of Grief outside of our control. If I'm right, it should develop into a Wraith, which we may then kill for its Grief Cubes. They won't supplicate Kyubey, but they do represent a stable, lasting alternative to Grief Seeds for Magi to use...if we can find a way to produce enough.

Hell, once we have a few to study, we might be able to find a way to make them without the intermediate step of creating a Wraith.

TL;DR, a Grief Cube is basically a Grief Marble with the ability to hatch into a Wraith.

Experiment: Could we try to see if we can make Grief Marbles hatch into Wraith-like entities?
 
TL;DR, a Grief Cube is basically a Grief Marble with the ability to hatch into a Wraith.

Experiment: Could we try to see if we can make Grief Marbles hatch into Wraith-like entities?

That gives me an idea. We create a marble but then drain the grief out of it while using our grief control to hold the outer structure together. The end result is a hollow marble which might attract grief to fill it. Maybe leave a tiny cloud of free grief inside to act as the attractor since marbleized grief doesn't seem to act feel or act like normal grief.
 
We can probably make artificial grief seeds once Mami teaches us how to make proper solids with our magic.

On another note, I'd rather not conduct any experiments that could potentially harm civilians.
 
Undue Alarm pt. 21
You stare down at the Witch, or at least you assume that's the Witch, bobbing gently in the bubbling, spitting pit of oil beneath, your wings beating to keep you aloft. You don't particularly feel like touching down on the metal grill beneath you.

A vague thought at the back your mind wonders about convection. If that's boiling oil down there, shouldn't it be blisteringly hot up here? It's barely warm enough in here to bring a light sheen of sweat to your face.

Then again, magic.

You take a deep breath, more as punctuation than anything, and immediately regret it as you get a lungful of the noxious, grease laden air. The breath reverses itself and you gasp shallowly instead.

... if this Witch is trying to disgust you to death, it's not doing too badly.

Reaching out with your other senses, you take a look at the Witch.

In the depths of the roiling, turbulent oil, you find a bubbling, hissing speck, the abyssal wellspring of Grief that is the Witch. A sepulchral voice whispers in your mind, a Name running icy fingers down your spine.

Gwen.

It's a familiar feeling, much like any other Witch you've faced so far... or indeed, any of the cores you find in any puella magi Soul Gem... including your own. You can't say that it's really different from any other Witch you've encountered, other than-

Gwen.

You know, bone deep, that this particular Witch is Gwen, and not, say, Aurora or Hildegard. That is its identity, nothing more and nothing less.

The Witch, Gwen, seems to be scudding around somewhere under the surface of the boiling oil, and that face is apparently a decoy, or some such. Still...

You reach out with your powers, and rip the Grief comprising the pasty face away to your control. It collapses in on itself, ashen remains mixing into the roiling oil.

A burbling, pained howl answers you, loud enough to send gobbets of oil bouncing off the surface of the oil and rattle the metallic walls around you. The oil churns beneath you, a mass of oil surging upwards to form a distinct figure, a hulking juggernaut moulded out of ugly, brown oil. A titantic face leers at you, jagged hole of a mouth gaping wide, and multiple heavy, dripping tentacles formed out of the oil whip around threateningly.

You grin tightly in response, unimpressed.

The juggernaut lunges upwards, grungy brown oil pouring upwards as the tentacles lance at you.

You raise an eyebrow.

The tentacles dissolve, oil losing cohesion and flaking away as you rip away the Grief making up the tentacles.

That burbling howl again.

You wave your warhammer like a conductor's baton, and without any further fanfare, tear away the Grief forming the Witch's head.

The enormous figure of oil quivers for a moment... and collapses, sludgy brown oil pouring back down. The Barrier around you wavers, dissolving into raw Grief that pours ceaselessly into the Grief Seed. You carefully release the Grief you've taken control of after entering this Barrier, bringing the levels of Grief under your control back to what you had before.

The Barrier gives up the ghost completely, and jolts you back into reality, disgorging you in the alley, and torrential rain, beside the old restaurant. The deluge of rain instantly plasters your hair flat against your skull, but you breathe deeply of the pleasantly cool and thankfully clean air out here.

You take a moment to look around, and grab the Grief Seed from the ground - the rain drowned out the usual noise of the Grief Seed landing, but you home in unerringly using your senses, anyway.

It's still early - that was a particularly unimpressive specimen of a Witch, you think, though probably a little problematic for a puella magi without some kind of area of effect attack, or your unique capabilities. It's not like Kyouko's spears could stab what were, on reflection, mounds of living salt to death, you reason.

Eh. Perhaps it's just as well you killed that Witch after all?

Regardless, it's only about 3:30PM in the afternoon, you think, about half an hour before Mami and the others end school.

[] Just hang around the school and wait for them
- [] Where to, afterwards?
[] Do something?
- [] What?
[] Write-in


=====​

Gwen, the Witch of self hatred. Her nature is rejection. Her Barrier is desolate and empty, inhospitable to outsiders.
 
Last edited:
[x]Inspect Hildegard. See if it's still expelling grief, how it reacts to SMALL amounts of grief being put near it, how it reacts to small, carefully applied amounts of magic, and if it's safe to put near Gwen's seed. Inspect it with regular meguca senses before we put it away again and keep it in a different pocket from our other seeds.
[x]Head to the school.
- [x]Meet up with Mami and the others.
-[x]Ask about their day, what the others want to do, and go with it. Maybe visit Sayaka or Hitomi?
-[x]Mention we ran into Masami and the out of town girls to Mami via telepathy. Everything turned out okay but we kind of need to talk to her about that later.
 
Last edited:
Eh. It's kinda pointless since we promised to reveal magic 'on Sayaka's terms'. We'd just be killing time. It's also raining so outdoor activities are a no go. I'd just leave it up to Mami or Madoka personally.
True, but that clause is there for if they don't really have much in the way of ideas...and Sayaka interaction's probably still useful since we need to mend bridges and keep working on the social stuff.
 
[x]Ugolino

Hmm, I think I might have found a possible landmine in the Mami Lichbomb issue.

Mami knows that the soul gem fills up with corruption as she uses magic, and she assumes that Magical girls lose their magic if the soul gem fills up completely. If she learns about the fact that the soul gem is actually her soul, then shouldn't she be able to guess that whatever happens to her when her soul gem fills up completely is alot worse than just simply "Losing your magic"?

Best case scenario is that she assumes that they simply die. Worst case scenario is that she asks Kyubey to clarify, at which point...
 
[x]Ugolino

Hmm, I think I might have found a possible landmine in the Mami Lichbomb issue.

Mami knows that the soul gem fills up with corruption as she uses magic, and she assumes that Magical girls lose their magic if the soul gem fills up completely. If she learns about the fact that the soul gem is actually her soul, then shouldn't she be able to guess that whatever happens to her when her soul gem fills up completely is alot worse than just simply "Losing your magic"?

Best case scenario is that she assumes that they simply die. Worst case scenario is that she asks Kyubey to clarify, at which point...
We can tell her that the soul gem's vital and that Masami or Sakura might have died. Bomb defused?
 
Back
Top