For a more fringe position, Kreia (and Verla apparently) think the Force is an evil god.

This has more merit than you might think. First, the force wants to be used. If all force users get killed, new ones will pop up from previously non-force sensitive lineages. The Star Wars universe will not accept force users going extinct.

Second, the force is all about balance, which is constantly being misinterpreted as the victory of the light over the dark. That's not balance, that's monotony. Balance is having light and dark in equal measure. This means that if all dark side force users are wiped out, new ones will be born and start learning from scratch.

Third, the dark side of the force is inherently corrupting. You can use it and stay a good person if you're careful and informed, but if you're the first dark sider after a purge you won't have that caution or knowledge. Therefore you'll probably fall and fall hard. You can't get around this by using positive emotions either, because positive emotions are part of the light side (Just never touched on for some reason).

Fourth, force users are compelled to seek out and challenge other force users, light and dark alike. Dark siders start wars of conquest or terror to feed their appetites, and light siders can't live them themselves if they don't try to defend the innocent.

Taken all together, the force in Star Wars acts like nothing less than a galaxy wide conflict generator, one that will destroy any attempt at lasting peace the inhabitants try to build. The force users will pull everyone else back into war and chaos time and time again even if they get wiped out completely every time it happens. In truth, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the entire thing is orchestrated by a Worm-entity gathering lots and lots of juicy data, because this is something they'd approve of.
 
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You can't get around this by using positive emotions either, because positive emotions are part of the light side (Just never touched on for some reason).
Not a SW lore specialist, especially not in regards to whatever Disney canon is... but old Expanded Universe canon, i'm pretty sure i remember hearing about a Dark Sider who fueled their powers through simple happiness. It's not a Positive/Negative duality, it's an Order vs Chaos duality, tranquility vs passion. Except the Order side is kinda screwed because most of the rest of your analysis is sound, if a bit headcannony, so chaos just happens, either instigated by the Dark Side, or due to the Force trying to rebalance itself (because Light side winning, excessive Order, brings stagnation and all)

Though, there is that one species that once invaded and has no ties to the Force whatsoever...
 
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Not a SW lore specialist, especially not in regards to whatever Disney canon is... but old Expanded Universe canon, i'm pretty sure i remember hearing about a Dark Sider who fueled their powers through simple happiness. It's not a Positive/Negative duality, it's an Order vs Chaos duality, tranquility vs passion. Except the Order side is kinda screwed because most of the rest of your analysis is sound, if a bit headcannony, so chaos just happens, either instigated by the Dark Side, or due to the Force trying to rebalance itself (because Light side winning, excessive Order, brings stagnation and all)

Though, there is that one species that once invaded and has no ties to the Force whatsoever...
That one species specifically had their connection to the Force ripped away by a sapient, force sensitive planet. Nothing natural about it.

In other news George Lucas always intended the Dark Side to be a corruption of the Force and 'restoring the balance' meant getting rid of the Dark Side. But between decades and several dozen authors' worth of EU content and whatever the hell Disney is going to do you can pick and choose whatever you want. I personally feel like being able to use the Dark Side without immediately 'grief spiraling' into a Sith Lord is fine, but people tend to take that too far and you end up with a bunch of edgy, special snowflake 'Grey Jedi' fanfics where an author insert gets to use all the 'cool' Force powers and maintain smug moral superiority over both the Jedi and the Sith.

But that's a massive derail. The only relevance this has to Madoka is, 'fuck no, don't witch out for superpowers or convince anyone else to.' Magia Record ain't canon and we won't be getting conveniently docile pseudo-stands as a power up. No falling to the Dark Side.
 
But that's a massive derail. The only relevance this has to Madoka is, 'fuck no, don't witch out for superpowers or convince anyone else to.' Magia Record ain't canon and we won't be getting conveniently docile pseudo-stands as a power up. No falling to the Dark Side.

I get the feeling we're going to have to get a pseudo-stand; Doppels are one of the few ways we know of for a meguca to communicate with their witch without becoming said witch. And if the theories on Feathers being Dedolere are correct, Sabrina needs to communicate with her witch.

(Of course, I doubt Dedolere would be conveniently docile. Nothings ever that easy.)
 
I get the feeling we're going to have to get a pseudo-stand; Doppels are one of the few ways we know of for a meguca to communicate with their witch without becoming said witch. And if the theories on Feathers being Dedolere are correct, Sabrina needs to communicate with her witch.

(Of course, I doubt Dedolere would be conveniently docile. Nothings ever that easy.)
The thing is, we don't actually know of this, because it's non-canon to the quest. Magia Record stuff is not being used. Being dumb enough to try making a Doppel is one of the few things that Firn might Bad End us for.
 

Some lovely piece of fan art I found here.

Given the mechanics of Star Wars metaphysics/The Force and Homu's... issues, can Sabrina help prevent her from immediately falling to the dark side?

Depending on the interpretation of the force one goes with Sabrina might have enough issues keeping herself from falling to the dark side. A lot of the light side stuff is based around a very traditional "villains act, heroes react" type archtype - not a character who actively amasses power in an attempt to help everyone.
 
Depending on the interpretation of the force one goes with Sabrina might have enough issues keeping herself from falling to the dark side. A lot of the light side stuff is based around a very traditional "villains act, heroes react" type archtype - not a character who actively amasses power in an attempt to help everyone.
Sabrina has enough self awareness that she'd realize she's falling... But I'm not sure she's self aware enough to stop herself. Even accounting for us.

Heh. It'd be Homura saving Sabrina from falling to the Dark Side. And parental figures trying to save their child figures from the Dark Side doesn't have the best record in Star Wars. (Han and Kylo, Obi-Wan and Anakin)
 
Lowlife pt. 38
You blink in confusion for a moment, trying to parse that. How does it all come together? Then your brain kicks into gear.

It's...

Well, you know that Homura likes the concrete. Perhaps you might attribute that to her experiences and lack thereof, and to your thoughts that no one ever really taught her the best ways to learn. Perhaps you might want to ground the notions you're introducing in the same way, but...

Homura asked you a question because she wants to learn. Because she wants to understand. And she learns best, does best with clear-cut steps and verifiable results.

You can work with that, you think.

"You've already started," you say. You don't move from your spot, shoulder-to-shoulder with Mami, Homura on her far side. "How it all comes together is..."

You chuff out an amused breath, and raise a hand to wave at Mitakihara: frozen in time stop, but Mitakihara nevertheless. Your home, your friends.

"I mean, people are behaving differently towards you, right?" you say. "And as I mentioned - that's because of what you are doing. So that's where it all begins: just being willing to try is a start. Because people... as a general rule, people have empathy for other people. If someone else is hurt, you want to help them, right?"

"It's not too hard to see if someone's trying to make overtures of friendship," Mami adds. "And in having empathy, if you see someone else who's reaching out, you're inclined to give them a chance yourself. I imagine... I imagine other mes must have tried."

Homura nods.

"Yeah," you say, tilting your head to slant a grin towards Homura. Give her some examples, something concrete she can hold on to. "So, to ground this hypothetical in reality: how things have changed this time is that you're actively fighting with us, and people know what you're fighting for. That's big, in and of itself. It changed the context of why you were acting so standoffish: without context, you would have come across as callous and kind of scary, now it's... part of your history. You've been fighting and suffering so long that it's become a, a defense mechanism, but you're still trying."

"It's part of what led to Sayaka calling you cool," Mami says, smiling slightly. "Because someone who's experienced and worn down by those same experiences but still determined, still fighting for the good of others is worthy of respect and admiration. She... I wouldn't have had the opportunity to see it, to understand, had you not been willing to show us."

"Context is a good word," you say. Suddenly, you're feeling a bit too restless to just stay seated, and you hop to your feet, standing on thin air once more as you pace back and forth on thin air.

"Context is the real difference," you say, gesturing emphatically at Homura. "You've been trying for years to scare Madoka off this life, and I understand that." You fix Homura with your gaze, solemn and serious and hoping that she gets it. "But without the context of knowing why you would want to do that, people viewed you with suspicion. It meant that everyone saw your actions in the most negative light."

You forcibly rein your words in, take a breath, and turn to face Homura squarely, smiling gently at her.

"Are we making sense so far, Homura?" you ask. You need to make sure you're not just metaphorically running off without her, after all.

"I... think so," Homura says. Her brows are still drawn together into that frown of concentration as she soaks it all in, hands fidgeting on her lap and amethyst eyes dark as she considers the matter.

"It's something that would have fed into itself, too," Mami says, sighing. "Someone who already had misgivings would naturally see any further actions in an unfavourable light. And I... imagine that I would have contributed, too. If you had rebuffed my overtures towards friendship, I... would have eventually viewed you with suspicion or hostility, and tried to drive you out. I'm sorry."

"It's..." Homura's brow knits a little further, uncertainty and discomfort in equal measure mixing in with intense thought. "It wasn't your fault?"

"It certainly wasn't yours, either," Mami says. "But thank you, Homura." She smiles. "And I... I hadn't intended for this, but if I may use this interaction as an example, did you notice what you did there?"

Homura tilts her head, uncomprehending.

"You showed empathy," Mami says, clasping her hands together and giving Homura a thoughtful look. "You weren't certain of the right thing to say, right?"

A nod, Homura's expression now tinged with a trace of worry - worry that she did the wrong thing.

"But even then, you tried to say something to ease my concerns," Mami says, smiling now. "You tried to reduce the guilt that I felt."

"I... did?" Homura says, her tone less questioning and more that of someone probing carefully at thin ice. "I..."

"You did," Mami says firmly. "And it worked, because I felt better for the reassurance. You might not have the, ah, experience, or vocabulary that others have to express it sometimes, but even making the attempt to reach out to others is valuable."

"Completely agreed," you say, beaming at Mami and Homura both. You're thoroughly glad you asked for Mami to be here. "The attempt alone is worth a lot, and that you're less experienced, less certain, doesn't make it any lesser. In some ways, the opposite - to go back to what we were talking about earlier, context. Even if someone doesn't know your history, they... guess. They can see that you're trying, they guess at some of your history, and draw their own conclusions. And by analogy, it's like seeing, say, a firefighter out there with a limp but still trying to help."

You find yourself leaning forward, gesticulating emphatically. Because this is important, this is how Homura is, and you... as much as you want her to learn, you want her to believe. That's every bit as important. But you also need to not scare Homura, so you force yourself calm down again, and not loom over Homura.

"Does that make sense?" you add in a softer tone. "I know I've been asking that a lot, but it... it's important that I'm not just rambling to myself, it's important that you're following. So please, please speak up if even the smallest thing doesn't make sense?"

And it definitely feels like you've been rambling a little. Which is... not, on reflection, a bad thing. You'd come into this conversation with an intention to teach, but frankly, it's more important for Homura to learn - and part of that is adapting on the fly. So you've taken Homura's questions and followed them, allowing her to dictate the pace. That's a good way to do it, you think.

"It's not an imposition to ask questions," Mami says. "It is, in fact, expected of a learning process."

You beam at Mami once more, reaching out to take her hand. She shoots you a swift smile, and returns her attention to Homura, whose brow has, to your faint surprise, smoothed out.

"No," she says quietly. "It makes sense."

"That's-" The twist of relief unspooling in your chest isn't quite a surprise, but it's welcome nevertheless. Something in the way Homura says it lets you believe it - that she's begun to understand, that something of what you're saying is making an impact, and you're glad. "That's good."

Mami squeezes your hand lightly.

"So, ah," you say. "On a slight tangent, Homura, a bit of advice?"

Homura's attention snaps to you, laser-focused once more.

"If someone asks you a question, it's perfectly OK to... to use your experiences as a reason to not answer. It's OK to say that it's too painful or uncomfortable for you," you say slowly. "It's OK to admit that there are things you won't, or don't want to talk about. That's not weakness to admit, and if someone respects you, they'll back off. Especially people like Sayaka and Madoka, who have some of the context. Do you follow?"

"It's a good thing," Mami murmurs. "It lets them know that there are topics that they shouldn't press, and because they respect you, they would be more inclined to leave the topics alone entirely. They might come to Sabrina or me, if it isn't a private matter, and..." Mami smiles. "We know enough to redirect them, or assuage their concerns."

Homura nods slowly, her expression clearing like it's a revelation. And perhaps it is, the traces of relief leaking into her expression and her posture a welcome sight.

"And to return to the original topic- well, originalish topic, how it all comes together is that... you're already in a position whereby if you make overtures of friendship, people will at the very least be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt," you say. "Explaining things, getting them to trust you, that kind of thing... it all fits under the same umbrella."

"It never..." Homura exhales. "It never worked before. I tried to... to tell people."

You turn to face her squarely, considering. She doesn't look upset, per se, just... baffled. And she's alluded to the question before, too.

"I was going to address that, actually," you say. "The short answer is circumstances - circumstances are different now. You are different now. You have information and advantages now that you didn't, that if you choose to employ it, you could reach out to just about anyone who's not immediately hostile to you. With or without my help."

"All you have to do is try," Mami takes up the thread of conversation. "Not everyone is immediately friendly, no. And unfortunately, not everyone acts in good faith. But our little circle of friends, for example - you, me, Sabrina, Sayaka, Hitomi, Madoka? And... most people?" Mami chuckles lightly. "If they see you reaching out, whatever the cause, whatever the manner, they will respond in kind."

"And there's... something related there that I want to address," you add, your tone gentling. "You've fought for a long time, Homura, and you've... encountered endless hardships. Much of it with trying to convince people of what you're saying, and I know you've had difficulty there. But things are different now, right?"

You wait until she nods. Not as reluctant as before, more certain, more steady. Because you're saying nothing that she can't see as true, or so you hope.

"You are different now, as I said," you continue. "And I have every confidence that if you should run into some situation where I'm not around to help -which isn't completely unlikely, since, well, you know how I keep running around- that you can talk things out with people. It might not be easy - but you're not useless. OK?"

Homura's gaze locks with yours, and you know she hears what you're not saying. You're not going to let this loop fail. You're not. But if.

If.

She'll be going forward armed with more knowledge, more understanding than she's ever had.

"There's a concept called learned helplessness," you add. "It's exactly what it sounds like: experience after experience 'teaching' you the same thing, that you can't succeed on this one thing. Well: we have evidence that it's not true. And the best way to overcome that is to just... let yourself relax. Laugh, and smile, and joke when you can, where you can. It's like recovering from an injury, learning how to walk again."

And there you fall silent, letting Homura digest that. Because therein lies your reassurance and an implicit course of action you suggest for her: for her to let her walls down. She's already starting to, and you're asking her to take the leap of faith. Perhaps you've given her enough reasons, laid out the costs and benefits and fallbacks sufficiently clearly, but ultimately, the choice is hers.

She's been willing to try this much. She has been trying. You're not sure how much of it is conscious, but now, you've laid it all out before her.

Finally, slowly, Homura nods.

[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)

=====​

You know, I'm really glad on an OoC level that you guys decided to bring Mami along for this conversation, for many reasons - not least of which being that writing Sabrina ranting at Homura for several updates is both difficult to write and is boring to read. :V
 
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In this update:

Sabrina: "Homura, being Murderface does not help convince people to trust you."
Mami: "Empathy works!"
Homura: "So...more hairflips, less ominous silence and pointing guns at the Incubator?"
Sabrina: This was a triumph. I'm making a note here: huge success. It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.
 
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You know... It's a damn good thing we brought Mami along for this, because looking at it, she's been helping to fill in the gaps between what Sabrina's saying. She's taking the cues from Sabrina and building on that and her own understanding of Homura, and that's helping to convince her as much as anything we're doing. Which makes sense, considering that while Homura trusts Sabrina, she's also only known her for a couple of weeks, while she's known Mami for years -- on an emotional level, it'd make sense for Mami's input to have a hell of an impact.

...and it occurs to me (over 10 minutes after posting this originally), that this is a continuation and confirmation of how things work out better when we're working together than when we're working alone. We stopped approaching Homura's worries as though they were an obstacle to overcome by talking at her, and later that same evening, she opened up to Mami about the loops. We make sure Mami is with us when we talk about Homura being able to deal with people, and she more-than-doubles the impact. It doesn't just result in getting more traction, it results in our friends being more able to help each other. Which, really, just comes back around to one of the cores of the quest...
As a general rule, the answers are hidden in the general direction of being kind, emphatic, and so forth. So continuing to be nice tends to have you stumble over the answers, as has happened before. Quite simply: the answers are in the direction of being excellent to people. They're not in the direction of being Hard Girls Making Hard Choices.

Oh, and one more quote for you guys:
It's always about the people, isn't it?
It's always been about people. Mami and Homura and Sayaka and Madoka. Kirika and Oriko. Masami and Hiroko.
It's always about the people.
=====​
Isn't it?
Saving the world, saving one broken little girl. What's the difference, eh? It's always about the people...
Gee it's like people are important :V
Being a magical girl isn't just about fighting. It's about people.
It's always been about the people.
 
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[Q] Okay, so now you officially know as much as I do about Social. The student becomes the master, and all that jazz.
 
It occurs to me that having proof that telling people can work might cause Homura to blame herself more for it not working in the prior loops whereas previously she could believe that people like Mami and Sayaka could simply never accept the real truth of the situation no matter how well it was explain.
 
If we're treating this like a classroom, maybe we could give her 5-10 minutes to internalize the lessons or ask further questions, then we could maybe give a pop quiz? Like present a scenario (theoretical or otherwise) and ask what would Homura do?
 
Homura knows how to social.

Homura knows how to empathy.

Homura knows how to dialogue.

The only thing Homura was lacking, the only thing Homura needed from all of this effort was emotional affirmation that it was OK to do those things again with the expectation that Homura would succeed.

Homura is better at being a human and being a person than Sabrina!


I do not know how to reinforce that lesson of affirmation, or if Homura even needs that lesson to be reinforced.

Especially now that Sabrina "Figure Of Power In Homura's Life" Vee and Tomoe "Figure Of Adulation In Homura's Life" Mami have done the equivalent of telling a depressed adolescent that the school was wrong to repeatedly punish her for fighting back against bullies, so she actually is still a good person, and actually good persons are always allowed to actually make friends, no matter how loudly the system has lied to her that she's an awful terrible person who deserves nothing and a bad student.
 
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Firnagzen said:
As a general rule, the answers are hidden in the general direction of being kind, emphatic, and so forth. So continuing to be nice tends to have you stumble over the answers, as has happened before. Quite simply: the answers are in the direction of being excellent to people. They're not in the direction of being Hard Girls Making Hard Choices.

Oh, and one more quote for you guys:
Firnagzen said:
It's always about the people, isn't it?
Firnagzen said:
It's always been about people. Mami and Homura and Sayaka and Madoka. Kirika and Oriko. Masami and Hiroko.
Firnagzen said:
It's always about the people.
=====​
Isn't it?
Firnagzen said:
Saving the world, saving one broken little girl. What's the difference, eh? It's always about the people...
Firnagzen said:
Gee it's like people are important :V
Firnagzen said:
Being a magical girl isn't just about fighting. It's about people.
Firnagzen said:
It's always been about the people.
*MAGICAL COMMUNIST SABRINA VEE THEME INTENSIFIES*
 
It occurs to me that having proof that telling people can work might cause Homura to blame herself more for it not working in the prior loops whereas previously she could believe that people like Mami and Sayaka could simply never accept the real truth of the situation no matter how well it was explain.
I mean, yes, but it's also true: She failed because she expected to fail, because she'd failed before.
Believing others were at fault was an excuse to keep from examining the true source of the failure (introspection is hard), a scape goat.

If she starts assigning undue blame to herself, she's scapegoating again, this time herself. The important part here isn't assigning blame - it's going forward.
She needs to see that success is possible, and that she can succeed, and if she was at fault in the past, what those faults were so that she can avoid repeating them.
 
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