[Q] "So is this about your father, your falling out with Mami, or both? Because either way, if you're trying to run from your fears, you're just being a coward."
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Illinois
I KILLED AN ENTIRE COMPILER IN TWO DAYS
...
Y'know, last I remember it wasn't 10PM at night...
My morality and ethical sense just kind of die and slide out the window when I start thinking in XCOM, so while I support this notion, nobody should listen to me about it unless they already agree. >_<
*Thinking noises*
a*
Huh. Homu?
*More thinking noises*
The big problem is that basically we're now roughly at status quo ante bellum of TDS, with Mami in a much better position but still lacking any of the information that would've let her do... anything, really, instead of having vague philosophical talks with Kyouko that just didn't help the way she really would've liked them to have. So, when you say she seems to be flagging at the end, I'm seeing that too, but on top of that I'm also basically seeing that she's stuck in the same place she was when she was talking with Kyouko in TDS, and in TDS she got nowhere, ever. I think the odds of her getting somewhere here are astronomically low if she doesn't make some kind of big course shift, to something like "I don't care, I just want you around anyways" as a response to Kyouko's line about there being a place for people like her. Which, if we vote to let Mami keep handling things, we are basically hoping that she goes that direction. I doubt that will happen naturally. If we wanted something like that we would need to override Mami's self-worth issues, probably by telling her to be selfish or something like that.
motherfucker I CANNOT STOP PRESSING CTRL+S HOLY SHIT HELP
More generally, considering "we" as literally everyone but Kyouko, we really do only have two effective options: we can either push in the direction of "We don't give a fuck what kind of person you are/think you are, we want you around", or we can push in the direction of "You are not a bad person for what happened." If someone has a third option that isn't some linear combination of those, you're a genius, tell me.
Building off of that, then, we really do have two general directions to take, here: we either aim for Mami taking a route where e.g. "I don't care, I just want you around anyways" is procced. This is risky relative to what happened in TDS, because as Kyouko has been kind of expressing here, Mami has friends already. In a way, we're a validation of Kyouko's belief that Mami is better off without her, and there is a very real risk that Kyouko's response to "I don't care, I just want you around anyways" is "That is exactly why I have been staying away from you." I'm... less than enthusiastic about that possibility. If that were to play out, it sounds to me like a route where our foot gets shot off. It sounds awful.
Which brings me back to the other option: getting more information on the table about what actually fucking happened with Kyouko.
There's all kinds of degrees we can go to with that, all kinds of ways we could approach it.
We could poke Mami to push on it. That's definitely an option.
We could literally just bust it out ourselves. Just stand the fuck up, and put it out there.
We could try telling Mami the entire thing over telepathy. That might be... awkward. It's not a short peptalk, it's a moderately long story.
We could go with "the pickaxe", which almost inevitably results in the entire thing coming out after Sayaka and Mami "WTF" at us and then realize all the implications of the statement I wrote -- specifically, A) Kyubey intentionally didn't mindwipe someone, B) The lack of a mindwipe resulted in murder, C) Kyouko blames herself for what happened. Several dozen doubletakes later that results in some very pointed questions about "what exactly the fuck happened, Kyouko".
If that didn't have clear fallout attached to it, I'd just be pushing it outright.
We could go with a less, or, uh, maybe more inflammatory version of it, but with less of the nasty "Kyubey wants to kill people" stuff? Call it a warhammer instead of a pickaxe, I guess, where we would literally just fight Kyouplomancy with fire and go...
[] You know, Kyouko, I just -- isn't it literally Kyubey's job to prevent everything that happened? Like, he mindwiped everything to do with us off of Sayaka's parents just a week or two ago when we'd literally pulled them out of a burning building the day before, you'd think it was his responsibility to put a stop to things before they escalated from "My dad wandered in to find me standing over a bunch of dead-looking people in front of an altar wearing a red dress" to "My entire family is dead because my dad decided I'd made bargains with Satan and literally burned himself, his wife, and his other daughter alive after descending into alcoholism and becoming abusive."
This... does have the questionable benefit of making Kyouko feel like she has to defend herself* instead of just run off. Maybe.
If we bust out Kyouko's backstory we are in an entirely different ball game, although honestly I have no idea what that game will be like. Mami is not going to agree with Kyouko's believing that she is at fault for what happened, because Mami has sane expectations of authority figures. Sayaka is not going to agree with Kyouko's believing that she is at fault for what happened, because not only does Sayaka have sane expectations of authority figures, she's also witchbombed. Homura will probably react with "Shit, where's my notebook." (
)
... I should type more but this too long already and I have to get up tomorrow morning lol.
*-- from accusations of being a non-terrible person
...
Y'know, last I remember it wasn't 10PM at night...
My morality and ethical sense just kind of die and slide out the window when I start thinking in XCOM, so while I support this notion, nobody should listen to me about it unless they already agree. >_<
*Thinking noises*
a*
Huh. Homu?
*More thinking noises*
The big problem is that basically we're now roughly at status quo ante bellum of TDS, with Mami in a much better position but still lacking any of the information that would've let her do... anything, really, instead of having vague philosophical talks with Kyouko that just didn't help the way she really would've liked them to have. So, when you say she seems to be flagging at the end, I'm seeing that too, but on top of that I'm also basically seeing that she's stuck in the same place she was when she was talking with Kyouko in TDS, and in TDS she got nowhere, ever. I think the odds of her getting somewhere here are astronomically low if she doesn't make some kind of big course shift, to something like "I don't care, I just want you around anyways" as a response to Kyouko's line about there being a place for people like her. Which, if we vote to let Mami keep handling things, we are basically hoping that she goes that direction. I doubt that will happen naturally. If we wanted something like that we would need to override Mami's self-worth issues, probably by telling her to be selfish or something like that.
motherfucker I CANNOT STOP PRESSING CTRL+S HOLY SHIT HELP
More generally, considering "we" as literally everyone but Kyouko, we really do only have two effective options: we can either push in the direction of "We don't give a fuck what kind of person you are/think you are, we want you around", or we can push in the direction of "You are not a bad person for what happened." If someone has a third option that isn't some linear combination of those, you're a genius, tell me.
Building off of that, then, we really do have two general directions to take, here: we either aim for Mami taking a route where e.g. "I don't care, I just want you around anyways" is procced. This is risky relative to what happened in TDS, because as Kyouko has been kind of expressing here, Mami has friends already. In a way, we're a validation of Kyouko's belief that Mami is better off without her, and there is a very real risk that Kyouko's response to "I don't care, I just want you around anyways" is "That is exactly why I have been staying away from you." I'm... less than enthusiastic about that possibility. If that were to play out, it sounds to me like a route where our foot gets shot off. It sounds awful.
Which brings me back to the other option: getting more information on the table about what actually fucking happened with Kyouko.
There's all kinds of degrees we can go to with that, all kinds of ways we could approach it.
We could poke Mami to push on it. That's definitely an option.
We could literally just bust it out ourselves. Just stand the fuck up, and put it out there.
We could try telling Mami the entire thing over telepathy. That might be... awkward. It's not a short peptalk, it's a moderately long story.
We could go with "the pickaxe", which almost inevitably results in the entire thing coming out after Sayaka and Mami "WTF" at us and then realize all the implications of the statement I wrote -- specifically, A) Kyubey intentionally didn't mindwipe someone, B) The lack of a mindwipe resulted in murder, C) Kyouko blames herself for what happened. Several dozen doubletakes later that results in some very pointed questions about "what exactly the fuck happened, Kyouko".
If that didn't have clear fallout attached to it, I'd just be pushing it outright.
We could go with a less, or, uh, maybe more inflammatory version of it, but with less of the nasty "Kyubey wants to kill people" stuff? Call it a warhammer instead of a pickaxe, I guess, where we would literally just fight Kyouplomancy with fire and go...
[] You know, Kyouko, I just -- isn't it literally Kyubey's job to prevent everything that happened? Like, he mindwiped everything to do with us off of Sayaka's parents just a week or two ago when we'd literally pulled them out of a burning building the day before, you'd think it was his responsibility to put a stop to things before they escalated from "My dad wandered in to find me standing over a bunch of dead-looking people in front of an altar wearing a red dress" to "My entire family is dead because my dad decided I'd made bargains with Satan and literally burned himself, his wife, and his other daughter alive after descending into alcoholism and becoming abusive."
This... does have the questionable benefit of making Kyouko feel like she has to defend herself* instead of just run off. Maybe.
If we bust out Kyouko's backstory we are in an entirely different ball game, although honestly I have no idea what that game will be like. Mami is not going to agree with Kyouko's believing that she is at fault for what happened, because Mami has sane expectations of authority figures. Sayaka is not going to agree with Kyouko's believing that she is at fault for what happened, because not only does Sayaka have sane expectations of authority figures, she's also witchbombed. Homura will probably react with "Shit, where's my notebook." (
)... I should type more but this too long already and I have to get up tomorrow morning lol.
*-- from accusations of being a non-terrible person
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- Location
- Illinois
*Point*, hasn't seemed like it really works, though, and Mami pulled it just this post.
- Location
- Here
In the interest of generating alternatives: One significant difference between now and the start of TDS is a larger social circle. It's one thing for Mami to say "I don't care about your claims to being a terrible person, I like you and want you back" There are different emotional overtones for Sabrina, Sayaka and Mami (and Homura I suppose, but that's currently irrelevant unless she decides to spring her time travellerness) to agree on "We like you and would like to see more of you and your adoptive daughter. You are the only one who gives your claims of being a terrible person credence."
The notion that Mami has friends because Kyouko isn't in the picture is absurd. It would be a nasty thing for Kyouko to say, but no more credible than the rest. Not that that persuades Kyouko, exactly.
The problem is she's not listening. She doesn't want reconciliation (in her current frame of mind). She's actively resisting. Valid solutions need to do something about that. I think your pickaxe scheme is indeed likely to derail the conversation and cause Kyouko to be more responsive, but I don't have a clearer than you do what that different ball game is, as it were.
I think it would be nice to have a solution causing Kyouko to engage again, which focused more on the present. Like, this is pure, sterile self-flagellation. Of course, that's from my point of view, not having vivid memories of my father's murder-suicide. And she doesn't have her wish magic. Tentatively, I'm leaning toward the opinion that 1) Kyouko blames herself for that and 2) She won't engage with anything else until she can at least cast some doubt on that blame.
Apologies in case this is less coherent than I'm currently capable of judging. Sleep now.
tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
It might just be that Kyubei is the Incubator of Earth, and he don't get to speak with other Incubators all that often, as interplanetary communication cost energy.
Since when do Sayaka have parental issues?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
We created them when we suggested that Sayaka might be, in fact, our waifu, remember?
But yeah, point, her family situation is largely fanon.
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tarrangar
Fat arctic chicken
I wouldn't call that parental issues, sure it might be occasionally embarrassing, but parents with a sense of humor don't really qualify as parental issues, or at least don't qualify as serious parental issues, and if every small thing you don't like about your parents qualified as parental issues, then more than 90%+ of the planet would have parental issues, and the rest would have a hero worship problem in regard to their parents.We created them when we suggested that Sayaka might be, in fact, our waifu, remember?
But yeah, point, her family situation is largely fanon.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Er. It was a joke, and then I agreed with you?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Actually I think it did work, it's just Kyouko is stubborn enough, with enough going, on that one breakthrough won't get through it all. Defense in depth is a pain to beat.
The bigger issue is if Mami can sustain her push that she's not going to judge Kyouko/hold what Kyouko did over her against Kyouko being all... Kyouko.
Sayaka might actually end up helping, she's had the most interaction with Kyouko recently and hopefully views her as a friend as well. So she might intervene ecen if we don't.
Somewhere out there is this.I, for one, welcome our new feline overlords.
- Location
- UK
I think I'm finally achieving my dream of answering to any serious question anyone has in the thread with quotes of my shitposts:
To be serious, I think Coobies didn't find magic, magic found them.
Okay, actually serious this time:
1) Emotions create magic
2) Coobies claim to not have emotions by and large
3) Insane Coobies are probably killed on sight for not conforming to the collective, though they also could be experimented on, I guess.
That leaves three most plausible scenarios:
1) Emotionless wasn't always their race's defining treat, they've developed it in process of their transcoobieist evolution, which means that they know what magic from the records of what they could do, and now they socially engineer sentient species around the universe to conform to the earlier records of their own race in order to create the necessary conditions to a magic-wielding society. That would explain how they establish contracts and know about magic in the first place, they wielded it before, but now they can't, though they still can draw magic out in others via their own magic offriendshipscummery and lies by omission.
2) They met magic-wielding species and reverse-engineered their technology, otherwise, see 1.
3) Yeah, the shitpost above. Someone could have created them for this explicit purpose: combat entropy by throwing magic at it. Could be a precursor race, could be someone on Madokami's level who despaired and fought against the heat death of the universe, could be Incubators are just enforcers of some kinda fascist intergalactic empire that powers it's engines of industry by literal manifestation of suffering and despair.
Like, the thing is, it doesn't look like a situation that has developed naturally: a space-faring race discovering a type of energy that they specifically cannot harness by themselves in any meaningful way. Like, how did they discover it in the first place, for starters?
I always assumed the Incubators (Or rather their creators) went the usual science route, discovering the secrets of the innermost fabric of the universe the 'normal' way, figured out how spacetime, quantum foam, all that jazz works and how to manipulate it according to standard physics.
Throughout their development they removed emotions as inefficient, ascended to become completely different to their original form the usual super sci fi transcendence way, and also discovered the secrets of consciousness along with all the other super science topics. Then one day, one of them looked at some emotional being using their new consciousness super science, and the famous words showed up.
"Huh, that's funny."
Because emotional consciousness violates conservation of energy. Sadly, they weren't able to exploit this directly, because emotional energy is weird and they can't use themselves, but exploiting some of their other super sciences they could do some weird stuff to it, effectively activating magic in an emotional being by shunting the emotional energy into reality or something else absurd.
From there just locating appropriate emotional cattle species (either humans being the best option or one of countless others), refining the process down to maximum efficiency (Magical Girls, Soul Gems, Witches etc) and you have PMMM.
(Just as an aside to this, my own headcanon is that the Incubators are an artificial race of drones created by the true leaders of the 'Incubator Civilisation' to handle this process effectively automatically and that said civilisation is really the only civilisation of that level in the universe, having either destroyed all competitors or being an effective alliance of all beings of that level. Partially because having multiple species of that level around would be kinda crazy and I suspect it would be illogical by Incubator mentality; better to be unified with no rogue elements. I suppose they could be locked in stalemate with some other equal power a few dozen galaxies over though.)
- Location
- Norway
Pure speculation, but if, as it could seem, Kyubeys mind /consciousness /whatever is in the gold hoops, what are the odds that they've straight up shoved their individual souls inside them? They could have used a similar method to contracting on themselves, but sans magic and danger of grief, since they're without emotion. Would also partially explain why the insane QBs are seen as a nuisance, and why/how the death of bodies don't matter too much, they probably have a safety measure in place to keep the rings safe.
Nickballas
Pride is an interesting aspect of human nature.
- Location
- Greece
Sabrina: Your soul is mine!
Mami:...
Kyoko:...
Sayaka:...
Sabrina:... Que?
Mami:Oh Sabrina.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
... Kyuubey is just a different forum quest where they min-max'd to the extreme.
The quest makes reams of excel spreadsheets, if your post does not provide sources your torn apart without mercy, a small cabal acts as a psedo board of review.
....... and then Sabrina shows up. Deciding she can save the ENTIRE UNIVERSE via what?
FRIENDSHIP?!
BAH what sort of trite anime BS is this?!
PS: Also they think throwing cold tea out is a waste, you can just microwave it to re-heat it... or better yet have coffee.
The quest makes reams of excel spreadsheets, if your post does not provide sources your torn apart without mercy, a small cabal acts as a psedo board of review.
....... and then Sabrina shows up. Deciding she can save the ENTIRE UNIVERSE via what?
FRIENDSHIP?!
BAH what sort of trite anime BS is this?!
PS: Also they think throwing cold tea out is a waste, you can just microwave it to re-heat it... or better yet have coffee.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Sooooo
What you're saying is
Kyubey is Marked for Death protagonist?
Makes sense as much as anything, I guess
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
wait what?
THERES ACTUALLY A QUEST WHICH IS THE HELL I DESCRIBED?! D :
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
[Q] Spritz Kyouko with a spray bottle every time she acts tsun
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
Hey Hazou may be very goal oriented, have a filter of morality that is a bit Blue and Orange, have trouble remembering people have angecy, and might have some amoral tendencies at times yes.
But he also has decided his purpose for existing is to help others and do it with the least amount suffering he can manage.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We can't be sure that the Incubators didn't do the same and this is just how the math worked out.
- Location
- Canada
Marked For Death may have a review board and spreadsheets, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to save the world with friendship too!
Besides, it has nothing on (I might be thinking of the wrong name here) Shepard Quest, which died long ago after the professional accountant who volunteered to manage it decided it was too much work and the author gave up.