Come to think of it, this useful separation between soul and body may have inspired him to invent soul gems.

I'm still not entirely convinced the Incubators "invented" the contract; seems more likely to me that they cobbled it together from other sources, whether it be crazy coobies spontaneously developing raw magic or outside, arcane-using species/civilizations. The QB Hivemind noticed something in there that violated thermodynamics, then paperclip-maximized it until we have the modern contract.

Okay, so that is the Incubators inventing the contract, and I'm just being pedantic. My point is, I don't believe they came up with it all by themselves.
 
I'm still not entirely convinced the Incubators "invented" the contract; seems more likely to me that they cobbled it together from other sources, whether it be crazy coobies spontaneously developing raw magic or outside, arcane-using species/civilizations. The QB Hivemind noticed something in there that violated thermodynamics, then paperclip-maximized it until we have the modern contract.

Okay, so that is the Incubators inventing the contract, and I'm just being pedantic. My point is, I don't believe they came up with it all by themselves.
I'm talking about soul gems, which contain the soul separate from the body while still linking them together, similar to Kyubey's halos. I didn't say anything about other elements of magical girl contracts.
 
I'm talking about soul gems, which contain the soul separate from the body while still linking them together, similar to Kyubey's halos. I didn't say anything about other elements of magical girl contracts.

Okay, so I'm even more of a pedant than I thought at first.

...*cough*

Anyway. The QB Hivemind is, well, a hivemind, right? The collective consciousness isn't concentrated in place, it's spread out among- aaand, I just realized that the soul and conscious are not the same thing. We know that (most) magical girls can't think when separated from their meatsack.

Huh. What does the Incubator Collective do with it's soul(s)?
 
I'm still not entirely convinced the Incubators "invented" the contract; seems more likely to me that they cobbled it together from other sources, whether it be crazy coobies spontaneously developing raw magic or outside, arcane-using species/civilizations. The QB Hivemind noticed something in there that violated thermodynamics, then paperclip-maximized it until we have the modern contract.

Okay, so that is the Incubators inventing the contract, and I'm just being pedantic. My point is, I don't believe they came up with it all by themselves.

I think I'm finally achieving my dream of answering to any serious question anyone has in the thread with quotes of my shitposts:
Lol
Crazy tinfoil hat time
Kyubey Collective is a Meguca from the previous iteration of the multiverse
In the previous system, there were no Incubators to regulate the Contracts, so everyone was making Wishes to the universe itself
Only they didn't Witch Out, they became Soulless after exhausting the finite amount of emotions they possessed after the Contract
And then they hunted other humans and devoured their emotions
So a normie came up with a plan to create a system, where the process would be regulated
They Wished to create such a system, and then retroactively became Soulless with a drive to regulate it, but without any memories about it
Law of Hope and Despair, everyone
They still need emotions to subsist, so they drain them from Witches

I'm pretty sure that's exactly how the plot of Mass Effect 3 was written.


To be serious, I think Coobies didn't find magic, magic found them.
:V

Okay, actually serious this time:
1) Emotions create magic
2) Coobies claim to not have emotions by and large
3) Insane Coobies are probably killed on sight for not conforming to the collective, though they also could be experimented on, I guess.

That leaves three most plausible scenarios:
1) Emotionless wasn't always their race's defining treat, they've developed it in process of their transcoobieist evolution, which means that they know what magic from the records of what they could do, and now they socially engineer sentient species around the universe to conform to the earlier records of their own race in order to create the necessary conditions to a magic-wielding society. That would explain how they establish contracts and know about magic in the first place, they wielded it before, but now they can't, though they still can draw magic out in others via their own magic of friendship scummery and lies by omission.
2) They met magic-wielding species and reverse-engineered their technology, otherwise, see 1.
3) Yeah, the shitpost above. Someone could have created them for this explicit purpose: combat entropy by throwing magic at it. Could be a precursor race, could be someone on Madokami's level who despaired and fought against the heat death of the universe, could be Incubators are just enforcers of some kinda fascist intergalactic empire that powers it's engines of industry by literal manifestation of suffering and despair.

Like, the thing is, it doesn't look like a situation that has developed naturally: a space-faring race discovering a type of energy that they specifically cannot harness by themselves in any meaningful way. Like, how did they discover it in the first place, for starters?
 
Gonna have to think more to properly respond, but-

could be Incubators are just enforcers of some kinda fascist intergalactic empire that powers it's engines of industry by literal manifestation of suffering and despair.

Didn't Sabrina herself speculate coobie's just using the "fight entropy" angle to... I dunno, justify itself, or something? While lichbombing Niko? Hang on, lemme dig up the quote.

I mean, the least charitable but still true interpretation of its words is that it's collecting energy to metaphorically keep the lights lit back home. That's technically fighting entropy. And the most generous is maybe that Grief Seeds are being used as the core of giant mecha to power the drill that will pierce the heavens."
 
The specific thing is that Incubators do not have individual emotions. The Incubators are a single "person" (emotionally and perhaps magically speaking) who has an entire species worth of bodies that they are the mind of.
Um, how did you reach that conclusion, the fact that their back mouth/opening is powered by a sliver of magic? Seems like a big leap of logic, unless I'm missing something?
 
The specific thing is that Incubators do not have individual emotions. The Incubators are a single "person" (emotionally and perhaps magically speaking) who has an entire species worth of bodies that they are the mind of.

That's actually... maybe?
I don't believe it's possible to create a uniform collective out of several individuals, because the compete breaking of boundaries between participants is more likely to result in a singularly insane entity with a multiple personality disorder than anything monolithic. Edit: and we have an example for that, Sabrina. :V
( well, Sabrina considers herself a singular entity, so maybe it is possible, if our dewichified conglomerate theory is correct, but it, eh, requires magic, which Incubators don't really wield properly, so. )
Instead, I think that Incubators created a partially melded self-supporting gestalt by forcing conformity through generations of repetitive conditioning and selective purging of the outliers.

In other words, I think the Incubators brainwashed their own species by cloning themselves again and again and again, then making the clones believe in the same things and behave like the rest of them do, and then they enforced it by creating a permanent telepathic link between every individual.

Like, if they were appendages of a Hive Mind from the start, then maybe, but Kyubey refers to some concepts that frankly don't make sense if he's talking about himself. Like, considering emotions a psychological deviation when you are the only member of your own race sounds really insane.


Then again, maybe I'm wrong and it's possible, since it's all speculative fiction for now.
 
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Um, how did you reach that conclusion, the fact that their back mouth/opening is powered by a sliver of magic? Seems like a big leap of logic, unless I'm missing something?

Canonically, Kyubey was highly interested into the Kazumi Magica situation because Jyubey offered the rare oppurtunity for Kyubey to speak with another Incubator.

...As if that's not a thing he otherwise gets to DO.
 
Canonically, Kyubey was highly interested into the Kazumi Magica situation because Jyubey offered the rare oppurtunity for Kyubey to speak with another Incubator.

...As if that's not a thing he otherwise gets to DO.

Yeah, but Kazumi Magica is also Highly Heretical.
Since it also introduces an idea that not every Witch drops a Seed just to enforce a Diabolus Ex Machina.
 
Oh, oh, before anyone else figures it out, I think I've found a line that will make Kyouko actually fight us:
[Q] "That's bullshit Kyouko, and we both know it. Stop covering for your dad who went cuckoo in the head after finding out Magic is real."
-[Q] "Boo-fucking-hoo, my daughter brainwashed me a congregation. He was the responsible adult in that situation, he should've tried for a solution before going murderhobo."
--[Q] "Like, seriously, has anyone ever heard about t h e r a p y?" Look at Kyouko, Mami, Homura... Sayaka. "Never mind, forget everything I said."

I absolutely don't promote voting for anything even resembling this, but I wanted to showcase the inherent problem of Kyouko's human condition is that the authority figure in her life explosively failed her. Of course she doesn't trust any relationship where someone might be considered her superior or holding power over her, she literally can't. She is subconsciously terrified of the very idea.

That explains why she is able to create other bonds: Yuma is her little sister, Sayaka is her trainee kouhai, and whenever Sabrina looks like Kyouko might be indebted to her, Kyouko goes prickly and tries to balance the scores as soon as possible. That's one of the pivots for Kyouko's issues in reconciling with Mami: she still respects her and holds her in high regard, and she is just scared shitless of that.

Mami showing that she is on the same level as Kyouko on the imaginary totempole is actually really good in that regard.

Puella Magi, where only Homura doesn't have any parental issues because she's too busy having Madoka issues.
 
umm I need to think about this but Kyouko is basically going 'I screwed up SO badly I can never forgive myself and I won't let anyone forgive me either!'

Mami meanwhile has gone past her issues and is in the territory of 'I'm not going to let my friend hurt like this, regardless of how bad she claims she is'. I mean Mami wasn't there for Kyouko when she lost everything, I don't think Mami will allow herself to back down now to help her friend this time - she failed Kyouko once, she won't do it again.
 
Plausible conjecture as it is, it is just conjecture.

They could also be dead, or abandoned her after she was old enough to have known them! Or completely fine not dead people and Homura was lying about her past to get people to stop bothering her, though the fact that she lives alone does lend more credibility to the guesses involving them not being in the picture somehow.
 
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Yeah, but Kazumi Magica is also Highly Heretical.
Since it also introduces an idea that not every Witch drops a Seed just to enforce a Diabolus Ex Machina.

For what it's worth, that idea is backed up by the PSP game and Magia Record, and I think also Suzune Magica(?).

If we're to take it at face value, it's possible it might be something like "A newborn Witch needs to kill atleast one person to form its Grief Seed's shell" or some shit, or "Going in TOO HARD on a Witch can destroy the Grief Seed, and perhaps Kyouko did this in episode 9 on purpose as part of her suicide bomb."
 
My gut reaction from the update is to respond to Kyouko somehow, but on sober reflection I'm not sure that's a good idea. Maybe just comment to Mami privately through telepathy? (Although Kyouko is skilled enough and knows Mami well enough that she might spot that.)
 
My gut reaction from the update is to respond to Kyouko somehow, but on sober reflection I'm not sure that's a good idea. Maybe just comment to Mami privately through telepathy? (Although Kyouko is skilled enough and knows Mami well enough that she might spot that.)
Yeah, we've pretty much agreed that we should just keep quiet. Mami already got past the worst of it by herself.

We're just the moral support and, if things hit the fan, a panic button.
 
For what it's worth, that idea is backed up by the PSP game and Magia Record, and I think also Suzune Magica(?).

If we're to take it at face value, it's possible it might be something like "A newborn Witch needs to kill atleast one person to form its Grief Seed's shell" or some shit, or "Going in TOO HARD on a Witch can destroy the Grief Seed, and perhaps Kyouko did this in episode 9 on purpose as part of her suicide bomb."
Could it also be that there's a stage at which a Familiar has grown enough that most people will think its a full blown Witch, but it isn't actually one yet, so it doesn't drop a Seed?
 
Two thoughts. First, I think Sabrina's appropriate role is to hand Mami weapons with which to defeat Ophelia, as long as we have something that seems likely to work. In agreement with Redshirt Army's sober reflections. I consider Kaizuki's plan to be a form of this. Mami has sort of stalled, because she is missing pieces. Pieces such as Kyouko's backstory, but also including Kyouko's role as Yuma's replacement, new-and-greatly-improved mother figure.

The second thought is that it is critical to understand whether Kyouko's guilt pertains to her wish, or whether she feels guilty because of giving up on Mami's style of heroism, and living since then in a way that she considers despicable (even if neither Sabrina nor Mami would look on it so harshly. That's not the point). I can't actually decide whether it's one, the other or both. Or maybe it's some sort of self-flagellating superposition, in which she can use one to guilt herself out of forgiving herself for the other, thus maintaining the shame for both.

An answer to that question would make it clear which approach to take. In either intervening directly (I don't recommend) or arming Mami (currently prefer). If you think Mami will uncover the missing pieces on her own... I think she needs a pick-me-up, at least. She seemed to be flagging at the end, even as Kyouko hardened on the harder-to-argue-against position of "There's a place for people (sinners) like me," mixed with "I didn't and don't live up to the standards Mami expects of herself," which is outright true.

That last bit is significant, if not necessarily what we want to emphasize (maybe it is). Neither Mami nor Sabrina expect Kyouko ever to thoroughly eliminate all familiars at the risk of starvation. Because the risk of starvation is gone. It was a high standard. Soldiers get rare medals for less valor than holding such a standard consistently, for years, until it eventually kills you. It's not a good standard, but without breaking the system there are no truly good options. Now it's just... not a decision Kyouko has to make. We don't need her to be that kind of person. I don't consider that there's nothing wrong with someone for falling short of that. However, Mami hasn't made that point explicitly, and I'm not sure if it's important that Kyouko hear that.
 
For what it's worth, that idea is backed up by the PSP game and Magia Record, and I think also Suzune Magica(?).

If we're to take it at face value, it's possible it might be something like "A newborn Witch needs to kill atleast one person to form its Grief Seed's shell" or some shit, or "Going in TOO HARD on a Witch can destroy the Grief Seed, and perhaps Kyouko did this in episode 9 on purpose as part of her suicide bomb."
Suzune Magica does nothing of the sort. While Haruka Kanade's grief seed is not seen dropping, a seed with an identical top to hers is shown later in the manga. Kagari's seed meanwhile explicitly does drop.

Note that both of these are killed as newborn witches, which directly contradicts the first possibility there.

Yeah, Walpurgisnacht exists as an example of a witch that apparently drops no grief seed, but whatever scenario it is that makes that happen, it ain't this.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure we've had this argument, and I've raised this exact evidence, before now.

Two thoughts. First, I think Sabrina's appropriate role is to hand Mami weapons with which to defeat Ophelia, as long as we have something that seems likely to work. In agreement with Redshirt Army's sober reflections. I consider Kaizuki's plan to be a form of this. Mami has sort of stalled, because she is missing pieces. Pieces such as Kyouko's backstory, but also including Kyouko's role as Yuma's replacement, new-and-greatly-improved mother figure.
Yeah, I agree with this line of thought and I like Kaizuki's "pickax to the wall" because of that. I think the best role we can fill here is filling in information gaps between everyone and this is a good time to step in do some of that.
 
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