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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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No, you know what? Kaizuki was right to not accept this -- and that's what we're tacitly doing every time that we simply argue how Kyouko should handle her guilt. Except she's not at fault, in any sense of the term. Her blaming herself is the intended result of enemy action. I'm done passively cooperating with the Incubators' systemic victim-blaming.

[X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
[X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.
 
[X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
[X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.
 
[x] Godwinson

Because even if other people have the fore in this conversation, there's a time, a place and a reason to step in. And this is it.

I may see about adding to this vote later, or maybe not, but this core here is good and should be done.
 
Godwinson said:
No, you know what? Kaizuki was right to not accept this -- and that's what we're tacitly doing every time that we simply argue how Kyouko should handle her guilt. Except she's not at fault, in any sense of the term. Her blaming herself is the intended result of enemy action. I'm done passively cooperating with the Incubators' systemic victim-blaming.

[X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
[X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.
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*Extreme Eyebrows*

...

No, I'm going to bed *right now* lol. I can think andor talk in the morning.
 
[x] Godwinson
Just also want to mentioned that we are bringing up the topic of Kyouko's family quite abruptly. Does Mami know about what happened to Kyouko's family, cause I think to everyone else, Kyouko's guilt seems to be coming from her familiar farming and general 'stealing' lifestyle.
 
[X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
[X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.
 
Godwinson said:
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
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This actually raises a question - did Kyoko personally tell Kyubey not to touch her family's memories the same way we told Kyubey not to touch the families of ours?

That's something that probably ought to be confirmed before trying to play that card. Because if it turned out that Kyoko personally instructed Kyubey not to do it before the incident happened, it could backfire pretty hard.
 
[X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
-[X] Keep your Grief senses on Kyubey's body and your eyes on where you think Yuma is. Madokami knows, you need a distraction.
-[X] Break for voting if Kyouko or Mami transform.

I think Mami is handling it okay, and our stated role is ensuring this talk happens, providing Mami with moral support and not ordering Sayaka and Homura to hold Kyouko's legs down while we press her jaws locked so that she couldn't swallow them. And, jokes aside, I'm kinda worried about Sabrina here. We've assumed a passive role which means Kyouko feels free to take potshots at her when she's just standing there in the peanut gallery, and that's not even saying anything about how she behaves towards Mami to drive her away. I know that I wouldn't be able to stay calm through this if I was personally involved, and I don't know that many people who would, but Homura stopped us, she believes in Mami, and so should we.
Checking up on Yuma and Coobie is a bit of a busywork, but it still could be important, so, why not.
 
PistachioCookies said:
This actually raises a question - did Kyoko personally tell Kyubey not to touch her family's memories the same way we told Kyubey not to touch the families of ours?

That's something that probably ought to be confirmed before trying to play that card. Because if it turned out that Kyoko personally instructed Kyubey not to do it before the incident happened, it could backfire pretty hard.
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He could've done it on purpose, even, demonstrating the capability to alter the memories of people around him, telling her that it's really not that different from what she was doing to her dad's congregation and making her react by having her say to stay the hell away from her parents.

Whether he actually did any of that is another question entirely, that's social manipulation a tad more sophisticated than anything he's demonstrated so far. Maybe. Does he understand reverse psychology? I mean, maybe he does, otherwise his telling a Madoka about the whole godawfullness of Magical Girl system doesn't make that much sense.
 
PistachioCookies said:
This actually raises a question - did Kyoko personally tell Kyubey not to touch her family's memories the same way we told Kyubey not to touch the families of ours?

That's something that probably ought to be confirmed before trying to play that card. Because if it turned out that Kyoko personally instructed Kyubey not to do it before the incident happened, it could backfire pretty hard.
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Excellent point.

[X] Kaizuki
 
I think we need to let Mami handle this. Everything else undermines both Kyouyo and Mami's trust in us. If things do start to go up in flames, I'd say something along the lines of

[] What happened to your sister is not your fault, Kyouko.

The idea is to trick her into giving up details about her dad's actions and also diffusing the 'I killed my family situation' in such a way that Mami can jump back in.

Basically, argue with her. Be stubborn and deny what Kyouko is saying or at least make her explain herself.

I'm just not sure how to word that sort of thing.
 
"Interject if something comes up that you feel a need to respond to with "Okay, that's just not true." "
Does this apply to her saying she killed her family?
EDIT: I do like the current vote, I just find this curious.
 
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Ace98 said:
"Interject if something comes up that you feel a need to respond to with "Okay, that's just not true." "
Does this apply to her saying she killed her family?
EDIT: I do like the current vote, I just find this curious.
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Well, yes though more along the lines of "Their deaths are not your fault." I feel that part of the problem is Kyouyo blaming herself for things that while they aren't her fault, did come about through her actions. We can't get through that because we don't really hold any moral authority over her. Mami does. At the same time, we have most of the picture while Mami has only what Kyouko tells her and that is going to be colored and cherry picked by her guilt. Really getting through that is going to take more than one conversation, but it's again something we aren't really in a position to do. I feel only Mami can do that.

All that means is our goal is getting a discourse started where Mami can adress the issues behind Kyouko's stonewalling, and do it in such a way that no one feels cornered. That means getting Kyouyo's issues out there without blurting them out ourselves when there are people around Kyouko doesn't really know or trust.

And that means getting Kyouko to say something herself.

At the same time, pressing Kyouko is a bad idea, and this is and needs to remain Mami's show.

One way to do that is simply denying her the only opinion on what happened. I wouldn't explain anything or go into details - it's Kyouko's story to tell. But forestalling her from implying anything false? And presenting a simple second opinion for Mami to work off of? That might be worth it.

At the same time, Mami might not need the help. In fact, I think that's essentially Kaizuki's vote.

Edit:
Thinking on it some more, I think having Mami agreeing with us vs having Mami be the first person to say it with no Input from us would make enough of a difference for Kyouko that staying quiet unless Mami seems absolutely stuck is probably the better idea.


[X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.

also, why is there the option 'say something to Kyuubei' if the bunnycat left? I think we need to find the Bunnycat.
 
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Raiseth said:
Does he understand reverse psychology?
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I was going to say that Kyubey definitely knows all the ins and outs of human psychology since that information is vital to the efficiency of energy collection, but then I rememberes that it was totally blindsided by Madoka's divine and Homura's demonic ascension, so...
I guess it depends on the polarity of the emotional asspull flux in the current plot.
 
PistachioCookies said:
This actually raises a question - did Kyoko personally tell Kyubey not to touch her family's memories the same way we told Kyubey not to touch the families of ours?

That's something that probably ought to be confirmed before trying to play that card. Because if it turned out that Kyoko personally instructed Kyubey not to do it before the incident happened, it could backfire pretty hard.
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jmcdavid said:
Excellent point.

[X] Kaizuki
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I really don't think the possibility of Kyouko having asked beforehand is high enough to be worth holding off for. Not when the original series shows us for a fact that Kyuubey tries to get people killed. (Goading Kyouko into sacrificing herself in a half-baked dewitching attempt, potentialbombing Homura.)

It doesn't take a great understanding of people to realize that revealing a magical girl to the local leader of a church with a centuries long history of persecuting "witches" has a high probability of a negative outcome for the magical girl.

If anything is needed before the break it can by a simple:

[] Restrain yourself and ask if Kyouko ever asked Kyuubey to stop mindwiping people she cares about

and then go off.

EDIT: see Torgamous's post
 
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The Phoenixian said:
If anything is needed before the break it can by a simple:

[] Restrain yourself and ask if Kyouko ever asked Kyuubey to stop mindwiping people she cares about

and then go off.
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Even if she did, it was almost certainly a result of earlier manipulations that we just can't point to as easily. This shit is Kyuubey's fault somehow. I don't like a conditional that leaves it as hers.
 
Torgamous said:
Even if she did, it was almost certainly a result of earlier manipulations that we just can't point to as easily. This shit is Kyuubey's fault somehow. I don't like a conditional that leaves it as hers.
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If you go down the causality chain far enough, everything bad happening to magical girls is Kyuubey's fault somehow, since without it little ignorant kids wouldn't have such an easy way to fuck up their lives. That's why we're trying to adfligo this damn systema in the first place.
But in this case, one step below Kyubey on the chain of causes for "this shit" is definitely Kyouko's wish. Of course I'm not saying that she should be blamed, as she didn't know any better, but still.
 
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