Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
OK So I get the logic of the 'Blame Kyuubey' vote ideas and I agree with it. What happened to Kyouko's family was not her fault. Kyuubey decided not to mindwipe adults like he normally does.

But... is this a situation where pointing something out once will make any really effect? Kyouko sees a direct line of cause and effect between her telling her dad about being a magical girl and the death of her entire family. Kyouko might very well just say or point out that means Kyuubey simply didn't cover for her own screw up. Kyuubey didn't tell her dad about magic she did. She's the one that made the wish, she's the one that got people to listen to her dad, she's the one that told her dad about everything.

I mean could work, but it could also offend her own sense of justice/need punish herself and make her push against Mami and Co all the harder.

Kyouko wants everyone to blame her, to push her away for the actions she 'caused'. We have to not blame her, and that ruins everything Kyuubey could be trying to cause with his actions. Kyouko won't forgive herself? Well we forgive her. We will pass no judgement or hold any grudges. We offer only a hand in friendship and the hospitality and aide of an alliance.

Blaming Kyouko for her actions assumes she ha been aware of the consequences of those actions - she's a 13 or so year old girl making a wish out of a power which can warp nature under the supervision and 'guidance' of a being of unfathomable intelligence. Blaming her for the outcome of something like telling her parents about how she gained literal magic powers is rather like charging someone for murder due to insisting on having a picnic where a meteor strike occurs a moment later, or assuming malice on the part of someone from a lost tribe of the Amazon finding a grenade and accidentally killing his village when he throws the strange fruit away.

It is tragic ways I cannot fathom, nor ever really wish to fathom, but it is not a tragedy which can be laid at Kyouko's feet.

But it may be a looong while before she sees it as such.
 
Last edited:
[X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
-[X] If things are seriously not working:
--[X] Telepathically, to Mami:
---[X] "You can help her, you are good enough, but you do not have the right tools. You need to know what actually happened. Find out."

Don't want to risk that Kyouko actually did ask Kyubey not to wipe.
 
DB_Explorer said:
OK So I get the logic of the 'Blame Kyuubey' vote ideas and I agree with it. What happened to Kyouko's family was not her fault. Kyuubey decided not to mindwipe adults like he normally does.

But... is this a situation where pointing something out once will make any really effect? Kyouko sees a direct line of cause and effect between her telling her dad about being a magical girl and the death of her entire family. Kyouko might very well just say or point out that means Kyuubey simply didn't cover for her own screw up. Kyuubey didn't tell her dad about magic she did. She's the one that made the wish, she's the one that got people to listen to her dad, she's the one that told her dad about everything.

I mean could work, but it could also offend her own sense of justice/need punish herself and make her push against Mami and Co all the harder.

Kyouko wants everyone to blame her, to push her away for the actions she 'caused'. We have to not blame her, and that ruins everything Kyuubey could be trying to cause with his actions. Kyouko won't forgive herself? Well we forgive her. We will pass no judgement or hold any grudges. We offer only a hand in friendship and the hospitality and aide of an alliance.

Blaming Kyouko for her actions assumes she ha been aware of the consequences of those actions - she's a 13 or so year old girl making a wish out of a power which can warp nature under the supervision and 'guidance' of a being of unfathomable intelligence. Blaming her for the outcome of something like telling her parents about how she gained literal magic powers is rather like charging someone for murder due to insisting on having a picnic where a meteor strike occurs a moment later, or assuming malice on the part of someone from a lost tribe of the Amazon finding a grenade and accidentally killing his village when he throws the strange fruit away.

It is tragic ways I cannot fathom, nor ever really wish to fathom, but it is not a tragedy which can be laid at Kyouko's feet.

But it may be a looong while before she sees it as such.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think this is a situation where Kyuubey's involvement makes a difference, and very much so. The fundamental point here is that Kyouko was not alone in her family's death and that, where she might have fucked up, the inaction of the other party was active malice.

As it so happens there was someone there* who could have stopped it, who had plenty of information on hand to predict how it would fray their relationship, who could have argued that point if needed, who could have called in Mami at any time instead of letting her learn what happened to Kyouko from the news, but overarchingly someone who could helped Kyouko and chose to do nothing.

*And I do mean right there. By the TDS manga, Kyuubey was in the building when the witch attacked.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I think this is a situation where Kyuubey's involvement makes a difference, and very much so. The fundamental point here is that Kyouko was not alone in her family's death and that, where she might have fucked up, the inaction of the other party was active malice.

As it so happens there was someone there* who could have stopped it, who had plenty of information on hand to predict how it would fray their relationship, who could have argued that point if needed, who could have called in Mami at any time instead of letting her learn what happened to Kyouko from the news, but overarchingly someone who could helped Kyouko and chose to do nothing.

*And I do mean right there. By the TDS manga, Kyuubey was in the building when the witch attacked.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Someone who could have helped Kyoko by following it's usual operating procedure, but did nothing instead. That's important. It didn't just not help, it broke its usual MO to avoid helping.
 
jmcdavid said:
But did it decide to do that on its own, or did Kyouko ask it not to mess with her dad's memories?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I see that as very much irrelevant.

If Kyouko asked, Kyuubey could easily have done any number of things, up to and including just talking to Kyouko about the risks she faced in making that choice.

And yes, that particular failure is just an extension of his normal failure of not actually explaining any of the dangers of becoming a magical girl. Which, it should be remembered, very much is actively malicious.

Every possible defense of Kyuubey here is damning and that has major implications for how much Kyouko should blame herself.

One of the major things to consider is that when people fail, they can either blame themselves, or they can blame the world around them. Right now, Kyouko is solely blaming herself for what happened when the rest of the world around her is far more at fault than her own actions are.

So, an addendum then.

[X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
[X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.

[X] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. Other people there had their own choices to make and, more than anyone else, there were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and deliberately chose not to. That would be in bad faith even if it wasn't directly against his usual MO.


EDIT: made an expansion. The depreciated original, for reference:

[] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. There were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and chose not to.
 
Last edited:
The Phoenixian said:
So, an addendum then.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Maybe shift your focus from Kyubey not helping to Kyubey actively fucking Kyouko up

Because she can rationalize Kyubey not helping by saying that she shouldn't expect anything from anyone, and it's her own fault for being weak and stupid
But Kyubey deliberately causing all this focuses her on an antagonist, someone to oppose other than herself
 
Raiseth said:
Maybe shift your focus from Kyubey not helping to Kyubey actively fucking Kyouko up

Because she can rationalize Kyubey not helping by saying that she shouldn't expect anything from anyone, and it's her own fault for being weak and stupid
But Kyubey deliberately causing all this focuses her on an antagonist, someone to oppose other than herself
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Edited in an expansion:

[] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. Other people there had their own choices to make and, more than anyone else, there were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and deliberately chose not to. That would be in bad faith even if it wasn't directly against his usual MO.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Edited in an expansion:

[] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. Other people there had their own choices to make and, more than anyone else, there were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and deliberately chose not to. That would be in bad faith even if it wasn't directly against his usual MO.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Fuck, I've slept too little for this...
I think it's still not clear enough that Kyouko should blame Kyubey instead of herself, but I honestly don't know
Now excuse me while I meme and ahitpost
 
I mean, the most direct possible way to say it would be something like

[] It is one thing to use her guilt as a drive to better herself, it is entirely another thing to use that self blame to blind herself to the actions of everything and everyone else around her. Kyuubey's actions, and inactions, are far more malicious than anyone else's here and if there is fault it lies on him.
 
The Phoenixian said:
I see that as very much irrelevant.

If Kyouko asked, Kyuubey could easily have done any number of things, up to and including just talking to Kyouko about the risks she faced in making that choice.

And yes, that particular failure is just an extension of his normal failure of not actually explaining any of the dangers of becoming a magical girl. Which, it should be remembered, very much is actively malicious.

Every possible defense of Kyuubey here is damning and that has major implications for how much Kyouko should blame herself.

One of the major things to consider is that when people fail, they can either blame themselves, or they can blame the world around them. Right now, Kyouko is solely blaming herself for what happened when the rest of the world around her is far more at fault than her own actions are.

So, an addendum then.

[X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
[X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
[X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.

[X] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. Other people there had their own choices to make and, more than anyone else, there were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and deliberately chose not to. That would be in bad faith even if it wasn't directly against his usual MO.


EDIT: made an expansion. The depreciated original, for reference:

[] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. There were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and chose not to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm with DB_Explorer here.
The logic may be sound but I don't think Kyouko will accept it because of her own involvement.
We can't solve all of her psychological issues in one night, she's not even sitting down damn it.
It's neither the time not the place, we need to stop getting sidetracked by shiny traumas and just get her and Mami to somewhat make up.

In short: leave this to mumipilot, maybe encourage her, but we shouldn't engage Kyouko right now.
 
[X] DB_Explorer

I generally agree with DB's raised points, in that I don't think Kyouko will be willing to ascribe Kyubey much (if any) blame towards the deaths of her family, regardless of evidence.

In my own personal experience with depression, after you've spent years blaming yourself for something, letting go of that is absolutely not something that you do over the course of a single conversation - and indeed my personal tendency was to angrily lash out at any suggestion that I wasn't the sole architect of my misfortune.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[X] DB_Explorer

I generally agree with DB's raised points, in that I don't think Kyouko will be willing to ascribe Kyubey much (if any) blame towards the deaths of her family, regardless of evidence.

In my own personal experience with depression, after you've spent years blaming yourself for something, letting go of that is absolutely not something that you do over the course of a single conversation - and indeed my personal tendency was to angrily lash out at any suggestion that I wasn't the sole architect of my misfortune.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I can second this, admittedly not as someone who has experienced depression myself, but as someone who has spent years trying to help a friend back from the brink of it. It's not even just anger, the idea that they could be wrong in how they have assigned blame becomes wholly inconceivable to them, and it takes lots of time and effort to help them see the truth of things. They'll assume falsehoods, engage in bad-faith debate tactics, because it has nothing to do with logic, it's all emotion. They feel wrong, and they believe that feeling must be fact.

Right now, Kyouko is panicking and having a depressive spiral, probably as a result of her nervousness. We might actually want to make sure she's fully cleansed, but even without that, the only way through this is to keep at it, don't let her walk away, don't let her give up on us.
 
Last edited:
*checks thread between finishing PT and going to work*... oh Redshirt voted for me before I make a a vote.

No pressure then *hides at work*
 
Unrelated question to whatever is going on at the moment...

Is the only description of Mika Nakano this paragraph?

"
Your first impression of the girl is that she's someone used to laughter. Nakano Mika -and it has to be her- looks older than you, perhaps about eighteen, and she's startlingly skinny. Her costume is a set of sleek, flowing robes the same emerald green as her eyes. Laugh lines crease her face as she looks around at everyone.
"

Asking for a friend. Literally. Since I'm commissioning art from said friend for Mika Nakano. (Also for Tsuruya Yuki)
 
Redshirt Army said:
[X] DB_Explorer

I generally agree with DB's raised points, in that I don't think Kyouko will be willing to ascribe Kyubey much (if any) blame towards the deaths of her family, regardless of evidence.

In my own personal experience with depression, after you've spent years blaming yourself for something, letting go of that is absolutely not something that you do over the course of a single conversation - and indeed my personal tendency was to angrily lash out at any suggestion that I wasn't the sole architect of my misfortune.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I very much disagree with the idea that argument can't get through to Kyouko and I think you're looking at things too much through your own lens and not enough through Kyouko's character.

As Homura pointed out, one of Kyouko's biggest things, from her surface character top even the themes losing illusions with her magic and wish rejection, is honesty. With others but also with oneself. Notably, one of the things in series that actually does get through to Kyouko is Homura challenging her illusions. Half remembered but paraphrasing she stop a potential fight in its tracks with: "I am on the side of those with clear heads, and against those who engage in pointless battles. Which are you?"

And, frankly, that may well be the reason she's pushing back as hard as she is right now. From her perspective, her knowledge base, and what we've said so far, our group having no blame for her probably looks a lot like we're not being honest with ourselves and just choosing to see the world through rose tinted lenses.

It's like with Mami and our relationship with her: We said the words about how she matters to us, but we until we really dug in and explained why we felt the way we did it was just empty platitudes that never got through to her.

This is why I've started gravitating to the ideas in the last post:

[] It is one thing to use her guilt as a drive to better herself, it is entirely another thing to use that self blame to blind herself to the actions of everything and everyone else around her. Kyuubey's actions, and inactions, are far more malicious than anyone else's here and if there is fault it lies on him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because I think we can, in fact, show Kyouko that she has not been honest with herself here, that pointing that out will certainly make her think twice, and that it will absolutely help, even if it doesn't solve everything in an instant.

The basic core points towards that:

1: In placing all the blame on herself, Kyouko is blinding herself to everything that doesn't fit with that.
2: In her cynicism she is also falling for the (metaphorical) illusion someone else wanted her to see.

Aside but related: The flipside of honesty here is the reason I'm massively averse to using telepathy to do anything; Doing so is essentially going around everyone's backs to manipulate the conversation and, well, Kyouko is both pretty likely to notice and unlikely to take kindly to that, no matter what the content of the message is.
 
Yeah so I'm here for like 15m

Read through the thread.

Points I wanna address:

- Kyouko maybe asked QB to unwipe notwipe -insert here- let her dad remember.
> I think this is neither impossible nor probable, and I have had literally a year and a half to consider it. More importantly,
>> "QB is at fault" is not a magic bullet. If it was I would've screamed at people to put it out so much sooner. Whether or not Kyouko asked for her dad to remember doesn't matter, because Kyouko's primary issue here is that she has been gaslit so incredibly hard by literally her role model, she's convinced of her fault either way. Knowing QB played into it would make her even more pissed at him than she is at herself, but it wouldn't solve her issues. It doesn't make her stop hating herself.

- My original use of "QB did it" anyway:
> I described it as a pickaxe aimed at the wall between Mami and Kyouko and that's what I meant to use it for. It was an excuse to crack open Kyouko's actual story, and little more.

- What actually matters
> Mami is actually something of a role model to Kyouko, as is made obvious by her talk of "not living up to Mami's standards". Yuma asked us to make this right; the only path to that is to get Mami into Kyouko's backstory where she can start dismantling all the goddamn gaslighting, because Mami is the only remaining person Kyouko views as having enough real, meaningful credibility that she'd actually listen. Might not have instant results but unlike everything we have done it *will* have results, and they *will* matter.
>> Is why I'm trying to say that basically the only thing that matters is that we get Kyouko's backstory to Mami.
>>> I'm fairly confident my vote works for that or I'd no be voting it.
>>> Is why I was willing to breach trust with pickaxe at this point -- because we're in a position where Mami hearing about Kyouko backstory lets her actually talk to Kyouko about it, finally, and pickaxe was a way to make sure it got out there
>>>> Why I'm not voting pickaxe anymore-- because this is pmas and we shouldn't need to breach trust to get to that place, we just need to make sure Mami goes that route (hence the "if things aren't working out, tell Mami she needs to learn Kyouko's backstory" backup line)
>>>> "No victim blaming" rationale from Brina is not wholly wrong but here akin to (though not the same as) trying to tell Mami earlier in quest that it's not her fault everyone leaves her it's because of QB. Doesn't actually work out by itself.

- Vote stands, I think. Interested in what DB has.
 
Last edited:
What we #should# do, is put QB's involvement on the table soon after Mami gets into Kyouko's backstory. *That* is something we will super want to do just because we can for lots of reasons, primarily not condoning victim blaming.

E: Apologies if I sound a little off atm, I decided on all of this yesterday when I had lots of sleep but didn't get a chance to post until today when I got less.
 
Last edited:
Wait.

Stop.

This is a teachable moment. Maybe. Behind the conditional, I mean.

Extant:
[] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
-[] If things are seriously not working:
--[] Telepathically, to Mami:
---[] "You can help her, you are good enough, but you do not have the right tools. You need to know what actually happened. Find out."

Proposal:
[] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
-[] If things are seriously not working:
--[] Out loud, to Mami:
---[] Mami, if you don't know how to help someone, it's typically not because you aren't "good enough" -- it's almost always because you don't understand their trouble. You usually prefer not to push people to explain themselves to you, instead opting to let other people come and explain their issues to you on their own, but one of the awkward facts about life is that people are generally really bad at deciding to do exactly that. It always seems easier, less risky to just... not tell anybody what's actually wrong. To not volunteer the information you need to understand their problem. It can be hard to tell when, but sometimes, you absolutely have to just push.

I have to get back to work though and uh just yeah bye again
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top