Wasn't that the group we felt was in an information bubble?

Maybe? I don't recall much of that discussion beyond basing which questions we asked of which IRC to be based on country of origin, and IIRC that was before they talked about making specific efforts to stay informed.

Looking at things here and now though, nyantokanyaru had contacts wide enough to hear we were a grief controller after the Sendai fight, even if we didn't immediately pick up on that.

All things considered they certainly don't sound like an information-isolated group.
 
You could try to spin me a yarn about how actually they're just in casual collusion with QB, or actually they're just horrifyingly competent and even more evil, but in all of those cases they constitute a group that Kyubey would surely be trying to take and point at us via manipulation. With an entity acting the way Iowa is -- that is, acting as an incubator weapon would -- there is no line between "just being that evil" and "working for Kyubey."

Not for our intents and purposes, and not for Homura's.

I don't argue with any of this
I just think that
[X] Iowa group is an Incubator weapon, or at the very least it looks exactly like one, acts exactly like one, and randomly has a clairvoyant that just so happens to fill the exact shape of "Kyubey is passing them intel."

Could be rephrased as something less sure of itself, like
-[] Based on their modus operandi, Iowa looks like a weapon used by the Incubators to dismantle small, well-off groups of Megucas. You can't be sure, but you heavily suspect.

Because honestly, their prescience could be explained by any bullshit Path to Victory expy Wish, like "I wish I knew exactly how to defeat all my enemies", coupled with enough Potential

I reiterate, I have no objections whatsoever against finding them and hugging the stuffing out of them with Grief
I have objections against strongarming Yuki into helping us by building a logical frame of them being an Incubator weapon aimed at us that we need to preemptively eliminate
Though yes, Redshirt Army's suggestion to hire them for this mission solves my concerns
 
Fairly long time reader, first time poster here. You've accomplished lots since then! (I recall last reading this story between... Ahh, I want to say after the mess in Sendai, but before Sayaka contracted.)

A particular thought: I think this is the most measured and rational response Sabrina's gotten to the offering of a Clear Seed. Props to them!

I also can't help but be terribly curious about our dear friend Kyuubey. What is its endgame? Part of me almost wants to theorize that it's sending volatile magical girl groups to make contact with us because we're getting a bit of a reputation for stabilizing them. Perhaps it's not trying to stop us from changing the magical girl system, but it's instead trying to shape how we change it so that it can continue collecting Grief. It doesn't have emotions, so I don't imagine greed for Grief would be pushing it to gather more faster if we're making a long-term solution available. (In particular, one without the dangers of being violently wrecked by an act of Madoka.)

This is almost certainly just wild theorizing, but I almost want to see if we can cut a Kyuubey off from the main hivemind, try and interrogate it in a situation where we can destroy it and keep the information from getting out, if we don't like the answers. If our little interdiction barrier is capable, I would love to have that on the eventual agenda.
 
It doesn't have emotions, so I don't imagine greed for Grief would be pushing it to gather more faster if we're making a long-term solution available. (In particular, one without the dangers of being violently wrecked

You would think so, that would be perfectly logical
Only
What was their response when someone tells them there is an omnipotent goddess controlling the flow of Grief and Hope in the universe?
"Let's supplant her in order to maximize the Grief output, it's not like anything could wrong"
We all know how that worked out
 
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What was their response when someone tells them there is an omnipotent goddess controlling the flow of Grief and Hope in the universe?
"Let's supplant her in order to maximize the Grief output, it's not like anything could wrong"

Honestly, I don't know if that's the way I would contextualize the Incubator's actions? It really seemed to me more that they did a cost/benefit analysis on incomplete information from Homura, and underestimated just how volatile her emotions towards Madoka had gotten after so long in the time loops.

I definitely won't deny that, if we're careless with what we tell it, we'll end up in a very bad situation. The whole thing is a questionable idea, hah. It's probably not a short term, or even medium term plan, but if we could skew the Incubator's analysis of things so that supporting us for the long term is a goal it wants to achieve, it would probably have a wealth of information to share with us.
 
Fairly long time reader, first time poster here. You've accomplished lots since then! (I recall last reading this story between... Ahh, I want to say after the mess in Sendai, but before Sayaka contracted.)

A particular thought: I think this is the most measured and rational response Sabrina's gotten to the offering of a Clear Seed. Props to them!

I also can't help but be terribly curious about our dear friend Kyuubey. What is its endgame? Part of me almost wants to theorize that it's sending volatile magical girl groups to make contact with us because we're getting a bit of a reputation for stabilizing them. Perhaps it's not trying to stop us from changing the magical girl system, but it's instead trying to shape how we change it so that it can continue collecting Grief. It doesn't have emotions, so I don't imagine greed for Grief would be pushing it to gather more faster if we're making a long-term solution available. (In particular, one without the dangers of being violently wrecked by an act of Madoka.)

This is almost certainly just wild theorizing, but I almost want to see if we can cut a Kyuubey off from the main hivemind, try and interrogate it in a situation where we can destroy it and keep the information from getting out, if we don't like the answers. If our little interdiction barrier is capable, I would love to have that on the eventual agenda.
Rebellion tells us that the incubators are greedy, if there is an opportunity to get more grief they will go for it, they want to maximize effectiveness over anything else. They will not settle for "enough" they want "all"
They want people to suffer as much as physically possible because that is a good thing in their books because their civilization uses the suffering of sentient beings as a fuel source
 
I don't argue with any of this
I just think that
Could be rephrased as something less sure of itself, like
-[] Based on their modus operandi, Iowa looks like a weapon used by the Incubators to dismantle small, well-off groups of Megucas. You can't be sure, but you heavily suspect.

Because honestly, their prescience could be explained by any bullshit Path to Victory expy Wish, like "I wish I knew exactly how to defeat all my enemies", coupled with enough Potential

Raiseth, if it were just that, that would be one thing. That could definitely be explained away as some kind of clairvoyance. But it's not just that, that's only the capabilities part, it's that and the displayed motivation, which is this:

"How about the Iowa group?" you ask as the torrent of Grief from the Grief Seed slows to a trickle. "I don't actually know much about them."

"Ah," Yuki says. "An excellent question. They are raiders, from America, as you might guess. They move into areas and demand Grief Seeds from the locals by dint of their powers. The locals typically do not have the firepower to fight back - the Iowa group knows to pick their targets. They stay for weeks to months before moving on."

And -- just for reference, the one you're already talking about, too:

"They rely on shock and awe," Yuki says. "That much has been a common thread. I suspect they have a clairvoyant of some kind, because another common thread is that they nearly always arrive in a perfect position to demoralize the defenders, often by destroying or occupying some location of significance, or even catching one of the defenders alone and then maiming them to send a message."

It would be one thing if they stayed for a shorter period of time, or if their opening action wasn't something that would do such a good job of driving up the locals' grief levels, or if any part of this sounded like it wasn't going to result in some or all of the locals witching out.

But when you take these two in combination... These tactics are visibly designed to go beyond simply defeating people. In Sendai, we say what simply defeating another group and forcing them to aid you looked like -- it looked like the tribute Akiko was demanding from University group.

But this? Destroying important locations, catching people alone and maiming them... Yuki is seeing those as intimidation tactics, but you don't have to do either of those things to effectively intimidate a group -- there are easier and more effective ways to go about it. You could just catch someone alone and surround them and tell them that if you can do it once, you can do it again. You can *threaten* to destroy an important location and not actually do it. These things would cause the locals to accumulate less grief than what Iowa is doing.

Now, on the other hand, if you wanted to drive up people's grief levels and sow disunity in a way likely to encourage the defenders to argue with each other more, then it would be much, much more effective to destroy and maim, and then rub it in the locals' faces that they can't do anything about it.

It would be more effective to make the defenders want to hurt you more.

Akiko didn't do any of those things, and frankly, the reason why is that pushing up people's grief levels means they can't hunt as well and can't pay you as much tribute. The reason why, is that making the defenders want to hurt you more, and then rubbing it in their face (directly or not) that they can't win against you -- that's not actually safer for you, and it sure as hell doesn't accomplish anything for you except to drive up the grief levels among the defenders.

If Iowa group was trying to "win", they'd be playing more like Akiko and less like they were trying to witch the defenders.

If you wanted to go about what the Iowa group has, without necessarily being directly responsible for witching people out, then you wouldn't use be known to use the Witchbomb as a weapon and you wouldn't stay in the same place for so long.

And yet, they do both of those things.

Because what they're trying to optimize isn't the tribute they receive, but how much grief the locals are going to accumulate.

If it were just that, I'd only be massively suspicious, the way I have been since Firn gave us the first quote a while back. I'd find it deeply unlikely that any group would go around actively trying to witch people out, and not be wiped out for being too evil to not get ganged up on -- again, the way I have since Firn gave us the first quote a while back.

But when you add on top of that, that they apparently have access to a powerset matching exactly to what Kyubey would be capable of giving them?

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

That all said...


I have objections against strongarming Yuki into helping us by building a logical frame of them being an Incubator weapon aimed at us that we need to preemptively eliminate
Though yes, Redshirt Army's suggestion to hire them for this mission solves my concerns

Then I don't know I really have an issue here, cuz I am definitely willing to hire them instead of talking about the defense pact or any of this stuff.

Although, honestly... I don't really mean to invoke the defense pact to strongarm Yuki into fighting for us. That would be kind of sketchy, and if my vote is conveying that, then I need to change it. What I want to do is inform Yuki about the fact that the group she's in a defense pact with is planning an offensive operation -- cuz boy if I were in a defense pact I'd want to know about that -- and why, and I want to make available to her anything that could be useful in the efforts she's already making to get Intel about Iowa group.

I'm down to ditch all of that and just outright hire her to conduct Intel/combat ops against Iowa though. We might have a minor issue paying her -- we don't got too many grief seeds laying around -- but that could definitely be handled.
 
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I just don't draw the same conclusions as you from what I've read about them.

By all means, they could be Incubators' sock puppets, traveling around the globe to spread misery, cause Witch outs and new contracts.
Or
They could employ hit-and-run tactics tailored to maximize their short-term gains and move out as fast as possible, because no matter how smart you are about it, extorting Grief Seeds makes Gucas hate you. So it would be prudent to leg it and hit another location, maybe several in quick succession.
If you asked me to speculate, I'd say they are trying to gather as many Grief Seeds in as short a time as possible, without using them up. For what purpose, I don't know, and don't really care.

I actually don't care about this one way or another, my only tangential concern having been Sabrina coming off as trying to abuse the defense pact set in place, which was addressed and solved to my satisfaction, so I have no more bones to pick, so to speak.

About payment. Probably money again, though we really need to find some source of income, which is, you know, legal. Ish. Eh, when we have time.
 
We might have a minor issue paying her -- we don't got too many grief seeds laying around -- but that could definitely be handled.

To be frank, this is an issue we'll need to figure out sooner or later anyway. We are, eventually, going to want to purchase services from someone who has a Clear Seed.

How is that going to look? The Grief Seed market is going to collapse, and moreover, every Grief Seed we acquire would do a tremendous amount more good cleared out and handed out as a Clear Seed than it would used as currency. So we need alternatives.

Cash, favours, whatever. Work it out.

On a side note, I don't think we gain a tremendous amount by claiming certainty that Iowa works for Kyubey. We'd want to take them out ahead of time (after doing research so we know what to do) either way, and given how willing Kyubey has been to spill secrets inconvenient to us, it'd be good opsec to keep this hidden from it either way as well.
 
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[X] It's alright, you understand. The offer will remain open in the future, if they change their mind once there's less heat and more groups with Clear Seeds.
-[X] You'll be in Fukushima relatively often due to your work with Miss Tsuruya, so they can feel free to contact you anytime.
-[X] If they want something that draws less heat, you could just clear out ten seeds worth of grief or so from a donated Grief Seed?

[X] Before leaving Fukushima, ask Yuki to provide privacy once again. Apologize for any inconvenience.
-[X] You were already considering this, and given what she's said about Iowa's tactics it's become all but certain - you're going to hit Iowa preemptivly.
--[X] You're aware that an offensive strike isn't covered by your defence agreement: What would hiring her team for this cost?
--[X] You need to do more research and speak to your team before you can commit to anything specific, of course. If nothing else, you want to know about Iowa's trump cards ahead of time.
--[X] You'd appreciate if she kept discussions about this hidden: It seems likely that Kyubey is one of Iowa's information sources, if not their outright sponsor.
 
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a donated Clear Seed?

Grief Seed

And you haven't given Yuki the rights to terrorize Hina with shipping gossip, for shame. :V
Otherwise,
[X] Redshirt Army

No, but seriously, Robin Hood is off-brand. Azure San Francisco is a much more stylish alias overall, and I'm disappointed we haven't cleared up that misunderstanding. Oh well.
 
So, reading things over, we still need to talk about sharing the infobomb status of our contacts.

It looks like we shared the lead in, but not the actual information.
 
Could you cite this part specifically? I've apparently missed it, but this is really important strategic information.

I actually cannot off the top of my head, and... I haven't exhaustively searched the thread over this yet, but...

I'm kind of really confused RN. I've been treating this as established fact since I don't know when and now I don't know why.

Doesn't change what I said about Iowa group -- it's the weakest, most irrelevant piece of evidence in that whole thing -- but yeah, like you said, big tactical implications... I've been expecting we'd want to leave Mami at home when we went to go deal with Iowa since whenever it was I decided this was a fact... But if it's just, like, not, then...

@Firnagzen, do -- do you happen to have any idea if you've ever said anything to this effect? This is so weird.

EDIT:

[X] Redshirt Army
 
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-[X] If they want something that draws less heat, you could just clear out ten seeds worth of grief or so from a donated Grief Seed?
Adding them to our weekly seed refresh run should also be on the table.

And I do think we should ask about transplanting buildings. A teleport network will be very useful as we contact more distant groups, and we're already talking with people from Kyushu, Hokkaido, and Arizona.

[x] Redshirt Army
 
They could employ hit-and-run tactics tailored to maximize their short-term gains and move out as fast as possible, because no matter how smart you are about it, extorting Grief Seeds makes Gucas hate you. So it would be prudent to leg it and hit another location, maybe several in quick succession.
I'm unsure how that interpretation works with this:
"Ah," Yuki says. "An excellent question. They are raiders, from America, as you might guess. They move into areas and demand Grief Seeds from the locals by dint of their powers. The locals typically do not have the firepower to fight back - the Iowa group knows to pick their targets. They stay for weeks to months before moving on."
Specifically, I'm not sure how they could be employing hit-and-run tactics, when Yuki has indicated that they stay for weeks to months.

I've been mulling over how they could "pick their targets" with a clairvoyance power, and it seems like that would be hard to me. They very well could have some wonky conceptual BS clairvoyance power, but collaborating with Kyubey seems like a possibility. I don't think we really have enough information that we want to put too many eggs in any basket. When dealing with plausible clairvoyants, you want a durable plan.

As a side note, I suspect if they have a power that tells them the best or fastest way to get grief seeds, they might get the answer, "steal clear seeds", since we aren't likely to befriend them. In any case, attacking our allies seems like a good way to limit our power on the Incubator's part.
 
Specifically, I'm not sure how they could be employing hit-and-run tactics, when Yuki has indicated that they stay for weeks to months.

By hit-and-run, I meant more like "squeeze as many Grief Seeds as possible with as little effort as possible, then move on before pissed off Megucas form a large enough coalition to meaningfully fight back".

But eh.
 
Raiseth, if it were just that, that would be one thing. That could definitely be explained away as some kind of clairvoyance. But it's not just that, that's only the capabilities part, it's that and the displayed motivation, which is this:



And -- just for reference, the one you're already talking about, too:



It would be one thing if they stayed for a shorter period of time, or if their opening action wasn't something that would do such a good job of driving up the locals' grief levels, or if any part of this sounded like it wasn't going to result in some or all of the locals witching out.

But when you take these two in combination... These tactics are visibly designed to go beyond simply defeating people. In Sendai, we say what simply defeating another group and forcing them to aid you looked like -- it looked like the tribute Akiko was demanding from University group.

But this? Destroying important locations, catching people alone and maiming them... Yuki is seeing those as intimidation tactics, but you don't have to do either of those things to effectively intimidate a group -- there are easier and more effective ways to go about it. You could just catch someone alone and surround them and tell them that if you can do it once, you can do it again. You can *threaten* to destroy an important location and not actually do it. These things would cause the locals to accumulate less grief than what Iowa is doing.

Now, on the other hand, if you wanted to drive up people's grief levels and sow disunity in a way likely to encourage the defenders to argue with each other more, then it would be much, much more effective to destroy and maim, and then rub it in the locals' faces that they can't do anything about it.

It would be more effective to make the defenders want to hurt you more.

Akiko didn't do any of those things, and frankly, the reason why is that pushing up people's grief levels means they can't hunt as well and can't pay you as much tribute. The reason why, is that making the defenders want to hurt you more, and then rubbing it in their face (directly or not) that they can't win against you -- that's not actually safer for you, and it sure as hell doesn't accomplish anything for you except to drive up the grief levels among the defenders.

If Iowa group was trying to "win", they'd be playing more like Akiko and less like they were trying to witch the defenders.

If you wanted to go about what the Iowa group has, without necessarily being directly responsible for witching people out, then you wouldn't use be known to use the Witchbomb as a weapon and you wouldn't stay in the same place for so long.

And yet, they do both of those things.

Because what they're trying to optimize isn't the tribute they receive, but how much grief the locals are going to accumulate.

If it were just that, I'd only be massively suspicious, the way I have been since Firn gave us the first quote a while back. I'd find it deeply unlikely that any group would go around actively trying to witch people out, and not be wiped out for being too evil to not get ganged up on -- again, the way I have since Firn gave us the first quote a while back.

But when you add on top of that, that they apparently have access to a powerset matching exactly to what Kyubey would be capable of giving them?

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

That all said...
I don't like this line of reasoning:

As far as their rate of movement goes it's worth considering that even as just predators the Iowa group shouldn't be expected to take more risks than they have to, and moving onto a new city probably is a risk of some sort. Even with a clairvoyant or other information power, actually going and gathering that info presumably takes time and grief seeds.

More to the core of my point however, Iowa's actions not being based on a premise of their own sustenance and safety alone certainly sounds reasonable, but that being because Kyuubey is calling the strikes sounds off: It's not in line with his MO

Dropping hints and answering question in leading ways are one thing, but Iowa being an incubator weapon in the way and for the reasons you suggest seems to me that it would require not only steering them where he wants them to go, but also that he dictates the character of how they do it and that seems highly contrary to the way he usually allows people their own agency in things.

Instead, I think this might be overlooking the more mundane reasons for their actions. I think we should ask if there isn't a greater purpose: What if the cruelty is part of the point?

If they're raiding cities all over the world, it's not too much of a stretch to consider that they might feel they have a right to do so and that their ability to walk all over people proves that they're better than them. Yeah, it's basically high school bullies flaunting their strength and asking for lunch money given superpowers and scaled up into gunboat diplomat imperialists but we are talking about (probably) teenagers.

And if it's not rational, when you look at PMAS's recent antagonists, between Hijiri, Anri, or she who we do not name, they don't exactly tend to be perfectly rational. Even Oriko and Akkiko had shades of that.

So yeah, instead of thinking of Iowa's MO as designating them as a weapon of Kyuubey, I think we'd be much better served by first asking how Iowa's actions might reveal their characters and beliefs as a group.
 
So yeah, instead of thinking of Iowa's MO as designating them as a weapon of Kyuubey, I think we'd be much better served by first asking how Iowa's actions might reveal their characters and beliefs as a group.

They're either a direct threat or a direct threat. If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, either it's a duck, or it's a duck up to isomorphism.

An incubator weapon up to isomorphism moving in our general direction is a threat to be buried, whether it's an "incubator weapon" or an "unaffiliated slaughterhouse nine".

I choose to believe that "incubator weapon" is much more likely than "unaffiliated slaughterhouse nine" because the latter should've been put down long ago. Something that evil would've, or at least should've, been coalitioned down outside assistance. Hopefully.
 
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