How is it going to blow up in our face?

Do you not remember when we accidentally told Madoka about Walpurgis?
That was accidental, and therefore presented awfully. A lot of the rhetoric we've been giving Madoka for why she shouldn't contract is that we need normal friends and that she's a valued member of the team anyway, which gets undermined pretty severely if we start keeping even solved problems from her.
 
That would mean changing the way a soul gem works so it doesn't create grief as a byproduct of magic. Soul surgery, basically.
We still have no evidence that the entire Soul Gem is actually a Soul. It seems way more likely that Soul Gems, and the Grief Seeds inside of them, are just containers/interfaces that the Incubator places the Soul into.

If so, we just need a better container. Science is needed.
 
Even more random though, I don't remember if anyone's brought it up, but while we got enchanted Grief around a Clear Seed (the Clear Seed pulling the Grief into a shell around itself), what if we try to write words with the Grief, in a variety of languages, in witch runes, etc.?

Chances of success? Not high like, at all. How much this costs us. Not much at all. :p

We still have no evidence that the entire Soul Gem is actually a Soul. It seems way more likely that Soul Gems, and the Grief Seeds inside of them, are just containers/interfaces that the Incubator places the Soul into.

If so, we just need a better container. Science is needed.
And why make a new container when we know human souls already have a perfectly good form of container they can live in.

That is, put soul back into human body. :V
 
SomeoneTM​ on this thread speculated that the familiar needs to consume Souls of other people in order to find "parts" similar to her mom and stitch them together in a new Soul. Kinda like a collection quest in World of Warcraft, but less brutal and despair-inducing.

That was me. It was just a guess, though - maybe familiars just have an "imprint" of their spawning witches soul on them, which gets more complete as they "mature".

(When Sabrina analyzed a familiar, it barely, barely had any sort of connection in that regard - way less then even Sayaka's power copy gems.)

I kind of think the "stich together souls" theory has merit just because of how awful it is, though - fits right into PMMM thematics that way.
 
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And why make a new container when we know human souls already have a perfectly good form of container they can live in.

That is, put soul back into human body. :V

  1. Disease
  2. Greatly Diminished Magic
  3. Age
  4. Greatly Diminished Magic
  5. Vulnerability
  6. Greatly Diminished Magic
  7. Environmental Dependencies
  8. Greatly Diminished Magic
  9. Inability to Disconnect from Pain
Normal human bodies are tremendously inferior to Soul Gems, save the Grief buildup issue.
 
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That was accidental, and therefore presented awfully. A lot of the rhetoric we've been giving Madoka for why she shouldn't contract is that we need normal friends and that she's a valued member of the team anyway, which gets undermined pretty severely if we start keeping even solved problems from her.
Why do we need "normal" friends anyway? Are we going to value Madoka less as a friend if she becomes a magical girl?

Because from Madoka's point of view both Sabrina ans Sayaka has had it pretty well becoming a magical girl, they became closer and more privy to more "magical girl business", and prevented them from bad fates* (so there's a carrot and stick situation)

* has Sabrina not contracted when she did she'd have died; had Sayaka not contracted when she did she'd still have drifting without a purpose, or worse, would have made a wish on a bad mentality

For me every time preventing Madoka form contracting it comes as only doing so for Homura's sake.




*sigh*


I'm not saying to make Madoka contract however: just that the point needs a better reasoning specially when presenting it to Madoka. Were it me, I'd just Witchbomb Madoka and tell her contracting to fight Walpugisnatch would trade fighting a city-destroying Witch for hers, a planet-destroying Witch, so unless the situation becomes dire enough to destroy Earth* it becomes Madoka's responsability not to contract.

* and even then she should talk with Sabrina & co first, the Mitaihara group is becoming very powerful and resourceful

A pity Homura wouldn't let us witchbomb Madoka
 
  1. Disease
  2. Greatly Diminished Magic
  3. Age
  4. Greatly Diminished Magic
  5. Vulnerability
  6. Greatly Diminished Magic
  7. Environmental Dependencies
  8. Greatly Diminished Magic
  9. Inability to Disconnect from Pain
Normal human bodies are tremendously inferior to Soul Gems, save the Grief buildup issue.

Well, yes, though some guca would rather be normal humans I think. And there's that problem that the soul can quite easily be disconnected from the body...

The true answer to this problem is to upgrade humanity as a whole.

KB claims megucas' souls are safer in Soul Gems because the cheapstake does not want to invest in getting the meguca better hardware (more like improving their survavility would go against its plans but whatever).

Maybe once we're done solving the more urgent problems, we can get around to upgrading humanity to be the universally better option.

(I say as if the quest would go on that long, but, well, saying "it's epiloque Sabrina's problem" would be lazy and not conductive to making Sabrina care about taking care of these problems post quest.)
 
Why do we need "normal" friends anyway? Are we going to value Madoka less as a friend if she becomes a magical girl?

Because from Madoka's point of view both Sabrina ans Sayaka has had it pretty well becoming a magical girl, they became closer and more privy to more "magical girl business", and prevented them from bad fates* (so there's a carrot and stick situation)

* has Sabrina not contracted when she did she'd have died; had Sayaka not contracted when she did she'd still have drifting without a purpose, or worse, would have made a wish on a bad mentality

For me every time preventing Madoka form contracting it comes as only doing so for Homura's sake.




*sigh*


I'm not saying to make Madoka contract however: just that the point needs a better reasoning specially when presenting it to Madoka. Were it me, I'd just Witchbomb Madoka and tell her contracting to fight Walpugisnatch would trade fighting a city-destroying Witch for hers, a planet-destroying Witch, so unless the situation becomes dire enough to destroy Earth* it becomes Madoka's responsability not to contract.

* and even then she should talk with Sabrina & co first, the Mitaihara group is becoming very powerful and resourceful

A pity Homura wouldn't let us witchbomb Madoka

I mean, honestly, the only thing that will canonically work in the long-term is Loopbombing Madoka and explaining that the contract in of itself emotionally destroys Homura, and that wish-lawyering will never make it better.
 
Why do we need "normal" friends anyway? Are we going to value Madoka less as a friend if she becomes a magical girl?
Some bullshit about keeping us grounded, which always rings false whenever we say it because Sabrina couldn't stay grounded if her life depended on it. Maybe it actually works that way for Sayaka, I don't know.

Problem is, telling her the actual reasons would be a betrayal of Homura's trust, so we need to invent plausible-sounding reasons that don't brush up against the bombs.
 
the contract in of itself emotionally destroys Homura
We could also try working on this. Contract or no contract Madoka is the kind of person who will give her all to help others. Homu is going to have to move past this or life with Madoka is going to be hell for her. What happens when Madoka puts her life in danger to save the whales or something? We've seen what happens when Homu thinks Madoka needs to be saved from herself.
 
Some bullshit about keeping us grounded, which always rings false whenever we say it because Sabrina couldn't stay grounded if her life depended on it. Maybe it actually works that way for Sayaka, I don't know.

Problem is, telling her the actual reasons would be a betrayal of Homura's trust, so we need to invent plausible-sounding reasons that don't brush up against the bombs.
It's like... it's not an actual fake sort of concern, but Sabrina already has enough grounding as it is. We're guiding Sabrina's actions across a necessary disconnect since for us, the players, this is fiction... while at the same time, there's enough people who like to bring normal, mundane concerns into the game, we don't this to be just a game of empowerment.

I'd guess it should help Sayaka indeed, since she's at that stage of learning and choosing what she's gonna be the rest of her life, and it would be only too easy to get carried away by the empowerment of magic and forget some important things...

It's also important for Mami to have friends, though I'm not sure how much better it is for her to have normal friends or magical friends. Though, maybe having normal friends will help Mami the most, since she's the one who's all about separating herself from others because she believes magic and normal stuff should be kept separate (maybe rooted in her feeling none understand what she goes through?). I think we've been working well enough on this with her, but we do seem set on a path of magic and more magic...

>_>
 
It's like... it's not an actual fake sort of concern, but Sabrina already has enough grounding as it is. We're guiding Sabrina's actions across a necessary disconnect since for us, the players, this is fiction... while at the same time, there's enough people who like to bring normal, mundane concerns into the game, we don't this to be just a game of empowerment.

I'd guess it should help Sayaka indeed, since she's at that stage of learning and choosing what she's gonna be the rest of her life, and it would be only too easy to get carried away by the empowerment of magic and forget some important things...

It's also important for Mami to have friends, though I'm not sure how much better it is for her to have normal friends or magical friends. Though, maybe having normal friends will help Mami the most, since she's the one who's all about separating herself from others because she believes magic and normal stuff should be kept separate (maybe rooted in her feeling none understand what she goes through?). I think we've been working well enough on this with her, but we do seem set on a path of magic and more magic...

>_>

So what you're saying is that Sabrina has to buy her maid costume in a cosplay shop instead of just making it with magic.

Hmm.:thonk:
 
but we do seem set on a path of magic and more magic...
And that's kind of what I mean by Sabrina being unable to stay grounded. Take Nagisa. Yes, we all love her, but her normalcy doesn't really fundamentally change how we interact with her. We have to avoid certain subjects around her, but if we didn't and we just told her we're a magical girl, we'd still be her Big Sis. We'd just take her on actual flights instead of putting her on our shoulders and making airplane noises. Or maybe we'd still put her on our shoulders and make airplane noises while actually flying. That seems more likely.

Am I communicating even slightly effectively?
 
We could also try working on this. Contract or no contract Madoka is the kind of person who will give her all to help others. Homu is going to have to move past this or life with Madoka is going to be hell for her. What happens when Madoka puts her life in danger to save the whales or something? We've seen what happens when Homu thinks Madoka needs to be saved from herself.

I mean, saving the whales doesn't involve selling your soul and humanity. Homura's fine with Madoka doing things humans can do, and would probably be extremely happy if Madoka put all her energy into some sort of humanitarian charity work.
 
And that's kind of what I mean by Sabrina being unable to stay grounded. Take Nagisa. Yes, we all love her, but her normalcy doesn't really fundamentally change how we interact with her. We have to avoid certain subjects around her, but if we didn't and we just told her we're a magical girl, we'd still be her Big Sis. We'd just take her on actual flights instead of putting her on our shoulders and making airplane noises. Or maybe we'd still put her on our shoulders and make airplane noises while actually flying. That seems more likely.

Am I communicating even slightly effectively?
Look, we haven't put Nagisa on our shoulders and made airplane noises.

This is something we should rectify.
 
Homura told us she'd consider telling Madoka her story after WPN. If WPN and Feathers is handled, and Homura tells Madoka her story, Madoka probably won't contract.

Everything else we tell Madoka up till then is just bullshit we make up to stall, because beyond stuff like the witchbomb which Madoka totally has the power to loophole her wish around, there is no other reason for her not to contract.
 
And that's kind of what I mean by Sabrina being unable to stay grounded. Take Nagisa. Yes, we all love her, but her normalcy doesn't really fundamentally change how we interact with her. We have to avoid certain subjects around her, but if we didn't and we just told her we're a magical girl, we'd still be her Big Sis. We'd just take her on actual flights instead of putting her on our shoulders and making airplane noises. Or maybe we'd still put her on our shoulders and make airplane noises while actually flying. That seems more likely.

Am I communicating even slightly effectively?
I wasn't clear enough, but I agree that the whole 'keeping us grounded' things does sound like BS, and that maybe it does help others more than us, like Sayaka.

Though... I see what you mean by Sabrina not being grounded, but at the same time I do feel Sabrina is grounded... maybe in a different sort of ground than most, but one that works well enough?

Homura told us she'd consider telling Madoka her story after WPN. If WPN and Feathers is handled, and Homura tells Madoka her story, Madoka probably won't contract.

Everything else we tell Madoka up till then is just bullshit we make up to stall, because beyond stuff like the witchbomb which Madoka totally has the power to loophole her wish around, there is no other reason for her not to contract.
I don't remember where this is from, but I seem to remember that Madoka's Potential goes hella down after Walpurgisnacht?

Don't know if because loops end, or simply because she'll grow up normally over time.

So... we should be good as long as we keep Doka from contracting until then. It might not even be necessary for Homura share her story for the purposes of no-Doka-Contract (though yes for the purposes of Homu getting better).
 
I don't remember where this is from, but I seem to remember that Madoka's Potential goes hella down after Walpurgisnacht?

Don't know if because loops end, or simply because she'll grow up normally over time.

So... we should be good as long as we keep Doka from contracting until then. It might not even be necessary for Homura share her story for the purposes of no-Doka-Contract (though yes for the purposes of Homu getting better).

That was speculation by @AuraTwilight, I believe. I don't think it's ever actually explicitly stated anywhere.
 
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It's like... it's not an actual fake sort of concern, but Sabrina already has enough grounding as it is. We're guiding Sabrina's actions across a necessary disconnect since for us, the players, this is fiction... while at the same time, there's enough people who like to bring normal, mundane concerns into the game, we don't this to be just a game of empowerment.
It's fake not because it isn't a concern (because it is) but because it's cited as the reason Madoka shouldn't contract.

I'm pretty sure Sabrina gets enough grounding herself by caring about people.

I mean, honestly, the only thing that will canonically work in the long-term is Loopbombing Madoka and explaining that the contract in of itself emotionally destroys Homura, and that wish-lawyering will never make it better.
You forgot to mention the city-destroying witch that forced Madoka into making a contract for Homura. Remove Walpurgisnatch and Madoka doesn't need to contract.

Which ties into my point: giving Madoka a framework where her not contracting is the good, responsible thing to do. So far the only reasoning given to her is baically "please don't contract" which isn't a reason.

Homura told us she'd consider telling Madoka her story after WPN. If WPN and Feathers is handled, and Homura tells Madoka her story, Madoka probably won't contract.

Everything else we tell Madoka up till then is just bullshit we make up to stall, because beyond stuff like the witchbomb which Madoka totally has the power to loophole her wish around, there is no other reason for her not to contract.
Then we don't we just tell her that? I mean, I think it's more honest to tell her "There's a big reason beyond that but I can't tell you until next month, until then please trust us and don't make a contract".
 
... Hmm. "Madoka, buddy, mom..." "Wait, wh-" "If you contract to defeat Walpurgis, congratulations! You win! Because everyone dies to your super-Witch."

"What!?" "Which, being honest, is too OP even for me. Now, I know what you're thinking. 'I'll wish to defeat all the Witches, even my own.'" "I really cou-"

"So congratulations again, you winner you! Now instead of killing literally everything, you've become God and bring peace to the souls of all megucakind!" "Wait, no..."

"Unfortunately being God means you're completely out of our reach, with literally just two people remembering. Seems reasonable enough right? Hahaha, nope!"

"Homura ends up super depressed missing you, what with reliving the same events for more-or-less nine years to save you. Instead, you became Actually God, and you made other mom sad."

*Blushes* "So, she does the only reasonable thing... Become the self-loathing Literally Satan so she can forcibly bring you back, but she's too emo now to think she deserves happiness."

*Incredibly horrified* "And that's why I was made! To literally prevent that from happening, because Homura is simply too skimpy as Literally Satan."
 
Homura told us she'd consider telling Madoka her story after WPN. If WPN and Feathers is handled, and Homura tells Madoka her story, Madoka probably won't contract.

Everything else we tell Madoka up till then is just bullshit we make up to stall, because beyond stuff like the witchbomb which Madoka totally has the power to loophole her wish around, there is no other reason for her not to contract.

Look, before I say anything, this is all very speculative and quite unreliable.

I believe Madoka has a large inferiority complex that would blatantly prevent her from making a profound Wish without sacrificing herself or at least making someone benefit at her expense.

I believe Homura has a twisted model or self-worth that hinges on her worth to Madoka, or, more specifically, how safe and happy Homura is able to make Madoka.

Furthermore, I am fairly sure Homura was displaying suicidal tendencies post-Wraith Arc, basically trying to get herself killed heroically in a hopeless battle and traveling to Madokami knows where in order to accomplish that.

Because I think those were not the ruins of Mitakihara, as the possibility of Kwijibo, Hitomi, Kyouko, Madoparents, that weird Teacher lady and Mami all surviving such a cataclysmic destruction seems pretty negligible to me. At the very least, Mami would have almost certainly bitten the dust trying to stop this from occurring.

Where was I? Suicide attempt, right.
So after Madoka both saved and sacrificed herself, basically accomplishing what Homura was trying to do all the time, Homura had only two things left going for her: being the only person who remembers Madoka, thus her sorta apostle, I guess, and a promise that they will meet again when she fucking dies.

Fast forward Rebellion, Madoka going all "I wouldn't want to be separated from my family and friends" blah blah Devil blah blah, I believe that this particular conundrum was fairly likely to happen. I don't put much stock into "My Homura is not a yandere" characterization, I believe that this was totally in-character for her and also a result of her fucking falling into despair due to aforementioned circumstances and the whole Rebellion shenanigans.

So I'm really against letting Madoka contract at the minimum until we resolve her inferiority complex and at the maximum I kinda want Sabrina to sit down and explain, step by step, the Rebellion and how it happened to Homura and Madoka. Not blaming them for it, but urging them to learn from their alternatives' mistakes and become more accomplished people.
After Walmartnight, I guess.
 
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... Hmm. "Madoka, buddy, mom..." "Wait, wh-" "If you contract to defeat Walpurgis, congratulations! You win! Because everyone dies to your super-Witch."

"What!?" "Which, being honest, is too OP even for me. Now, I know what you're thinking. 'I'll wish to defeat all the Witches, even my own.'" "I really cou-"

"So congratulations again, you winner you! Now instead of killing literally everything, you've become God and bring peace to the souls of all megucakind!" "Wait, no..."

"Unfortunately being God means you're completely out of our reach, with literally just two people remembering. Seems reasonable enough right? Hahaha, nope!"

"Homura ends up super depressed missing you, what with reliving the same events for more-or-less nine years to save you. Instead, you became Actually God, and you made other mom sad."

*Blushes* "So, she does the only reasonable thing... Become the self-loathing Literally Satan so she can forcibly bring you back, but she's too emo now to think she deserves happiness."

*Incredibly horrified* "And that's why I was made! To literally prevent that from happening, because Homura is simply too skimpy as Literally Satan."

"I wish to kill all Witches ever and that Homura will always dress nicely!"

*Vanishes*


"Dokadamnit!"

"Oh great. Another permanent magical effect."

"What?"

*Looks at Homura*

*Clothes have been replaced with ultra stylish designer equivalents*

"Uh. Looking good, mom."

"Thanks."

"What do you mean 'another'?"



"I Wish to save Mitakihara and that Homura's hair would look fabulous without braids!"



"Nothing... Just that I keep being reminded of my failures. You coming?"

*Gestures at Shield*


"Let me grab Mami first."
 
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Is it wrong that we're making jokes about Madoka being a contract lemming?

Or that I'm laughing at those jokes?

Eh. If it is, nothing a good old fashioned Faustian Bargain can't fix.
 
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