Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Enough to build a flying grief house for the Kures? We did want to move them so that we could let them move about while keeping them under tight security. 
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
I'm not so sure. I do think we should stand by our morals more blatantly and be less afraid of being too overbearing. IMHO, we tried way too hard to accommodate her and were too reluctant to offend her in an attempt to avoid a fight. Which normally isn't too bad but...
Normally, I complain about Sabrina being controlling, overbearing, etc. But this time, it kind of feels like we went to the opposite extreme. At least, that was one of things I got from this.
By that logic, this is also all on them for not being convincing enough from the start.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
Letting her go (Muramasa's plan) was winning, then Firn vetoed that, that's why gemming her won -- as far as I can tell the majority never ended up convinced that gemming her was the right course of action.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
- Location
- Illinois
You mean Firnagzen explaining that she wished to raise the shade of her sister's killer so she could torture it didn't swing literally everyone except you and maybe a couple of others? Because if you look at the thread you're actually just wrong.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
I've looked at the thread and I disagree with you, no matter how many declarations of my falsehood you make.
Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
Guys.
Why are we still arguing about this.
Why are we still arguing about this.
No [-] Mamihugs option, no vote
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Agreed. This Rionna incident saw the thread get the most toxic it's been since the negotiations in the Sendai War arc, which saw some really nasty personal attacks being leveled at people just for proposing ideas or votes. Let's drop this crap already. Firn stepped in and arbitrated it because it was too toxic and pointless to let go further.
- Location
- Illinois
Alright. Let's see here.
To start off -- your initial claim. "Letting her go (Muramasa's plan) was winning, then Firn vetoed that, that's why gemming her won". This is verifiable falsehood -- Muramasa nulled his vote, and did so before this post, which is what I had argued was where things started turning around in totality:
It did come after this post:
In which Firnagzen weighed in pretty heavily on things, but very specifically did not "veto" anything. The only thing Firnagzen did at all was to open the curtains a bit and show us what was going on behind the scenes. So, no, reading the thread does in fact demonstrate that that part of your post is falsehood, whatever you may feel about it -- it is simply fact that Firnagzen did not "veto" any vote.
Now, your claim that the "majority" never ending up convinced of gemming her -- let's see about that too, shall we? Following this post by Firnagzen?
Just as some examples of posts following that:
That was both conveyed and not conveyed very well. For the most part I got the message "Wow this person is awful" but there was just enough that about her that made me go "But what if she isn't completely awful?" I'm feeling really dumb now.
Anyway, looks like Thread Sabrina had her pegged right from the get-go. It figures.
I could at this point trawl the thread and quote everything ever. But I won't, because I really only need to point you to one place, which should have been the first place you went if you were looking for evidence to claim that a "majority" never wanted to gem Rionna: the vote tally for the segment.
Honestly, everything important is demonstrated by this vote tally post, where 29 voters voted for plans involving gemming Rionna, outweighing not just the 11 proxies for Muramasa's nulled vote but every other vote combined, sitting at 22 votes for anything other than those two plans which involved gemming Rionna -- 22 votes which included things like "Kill her", "Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box", "Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.", "Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now." That's a mild bit of cherry-picking right there, but the reality is that about half of the 11 of those 22 votes which weren't "[] Null" were effectively either to attack Rionna or to call a timestop meeting which, as we've seen, consisted of the other three members of the Mitakihara Group telling us to take Rionna down.
What is a "majority"? Generally, it is considered to be a collection of more than half of the elements involved. I would propose that claiming that "The majority" never ended up convinced of gemming Rionna is quite clearly falsehood, given that, in fact, a majority directly voted for gemming Rionna.
So, you're free to "disagree with [me] regardless of how many declarations of [your] falsehood {I}* make", but that isn't going to change the facts of the matter, which are clearly different from what you've asserted.
* -- would be enclosed in [] but apparently putting an I between those is a formatting thing.
Last edited:
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Alright, instead of joining in on the action, I'm going to suggest we drop it before somebody actually puts "We do not discuss Rionna" on the banner.
I've stopped caring about Rionna.
Fuck me, but that's true.
I have nothing more to say about her. I still have an opinion about Rionna, but I couldn't care enough to express it anymore.
I've literally stopped feeling anything about Rionna as a character.
In the best of the worlds, we would together reach a consensus about her and act accordingly. Unfortunately, we are in the world where the thread got locked twice during our ten-minute-long IC conversation with her.
Everyone has already formed an opinion about her, our situation, both IC and OOC, and what should be done. It's very unlikely a high enough percentage of people is going to change their opinions about this one way or another. Denying that there are some people who still feel that Gemming Rionna was a mistake isn't going to get us anywhere. Further argument in that direction doesn't seem to provide any positive result at all, much less a positive result that would offset a potential hazard of the thread devolving into a shitstorm once again, and getting locked once again.
So please, fucking please, drop it. Drop Rionna from a fucking skyscraper and forget about her for a goddamned minute. Better yet, a month.
I've stopped caring about Rionna.
Fuck me, but that's true.
I have nothing more to say about her. I still have an opinion about Rionna, but I couldn't care enough to express it anymore.
I've literally stopped feeling anything about Rionna as a character.
In the best of the worlds, we would together reach a consensus about her and act accordingly. Unfortunately, we are in the world where the thread got locked twice during our ten-minute-long IC conversation with her.
Everyone has already formed an opinion about her, our situation, both IC and OOC, and what should be done. It's very unlikely a high enough percentage of people is going to change their opinions about this one way or another. Denying that there are some people who still feel that Gemming Rionna was a mistake isn't going to get us anywhere. Further argument in that direction doesn't seem to provide any positive result at all, much less a positive result that would offset a potential hazard of the thread devolving into a shitstorm once again, and getting locked once again.
So please, fucking please, drop it. Drop Rionna from a fucking skyscraper and forget about her for a goddamned minute. Better yet, a month.
Last edited:
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I'm sorely tempted to add the tag 'the first rule about Rionna is don't talk about Rionna'...
May I?
May I?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yes do it.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
'Very specifically'? When he said that he couldn't see Sabrina doing that, that was effectively a veto and I immediately called it such later :
And I note *nobody* voiced a disagreement with my interpretation (not you even), and other people similarly interpreted it this way:
And finally Firn himself used the word 'veto' also in a later comment, using the same argument:
So, I'm sorry but when you say that it's a "simple fact" that Firn didn't veto any vote, you're the one who's just wrong. A veto is what several of us felt about what Firnagzen was doing with his comment about it being against Sabrina's nature, and which Firn himself subsequently confirmed using the word veto himself in a later post -- and I didn't see you objecting *back then* to me or to Redshirt Army when we spoke about how 'letting go of Rionna' had been vetoed.
Now for some reason, after the fact, you want to say that Firn didn't veto any vote, you want even to present it as a supposedly objective fact that he didn't veto any vote! Even though he actually explicitly said "I'm going to veto your vote", and had made it implicit long before then.
At some point I was also voting for a plan to temporarily gem Rionna (your plan, actually), since after Firn's guidelines on Sabrina's nature I was also trying to find a plan consistent with Sabrina's characters. That doesn't mean I was in *agreement* with Sabrina's actions, it means I recognized her character and thought-processes were different to mine, and that it'd be out-of-character (as Firn indicated) for her to delay action as I had originally wanted and as I was still wanting.
Last edited:
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Anyway. @Firnagzen , I just want to say that you've handled Mami and Sabrina's relationship and dynamic amazingly well. And seeing Mami's trauma, loneliness, insecurities, and low self-esteem be played out fully but slowly addressed and healed is cathartic as hell...as is Homura and Sayaka being genuine friends, and so much more. Fuck, I'm on my phone, but I'll list some of them anyway:
Sayaka getting to feel like a hero, valued, respected, believing in herself (after the crisis in Asunaro, and now this, I think she's starting to really take Sabrina's confidence in her to heart. And seeing Sabrina overwhelmed, exhausted, and doubting herself, and taking the lead on helping her, no doubt makes her feel more like a proper member of the team), and not at odds with Homura or Kyouko is just awesome. Her relationship with Homura is also heartwarming, especially given where it started in this quest. She doesn't know about the Witchbomb, or the loops, or Homura's past, but she respects Homura, trusts her, likes working with her, and actually GETS that Homura is bad with people and rather bizarre, but not a bad person or a machine at all.
Homura...well, let's just say that I look here for catharsis when it comes to Homura's canonical suffering. And I can only imagine how she feels about being able to trust and rely upon Mami and Sayaka, with both of them knowing the truth about soul gems and Kyuubey. And I'm actually disappointed that we didn't get more of a reaction to Sabrina telling Homura that she considers herself to be the Wishborne "child" of Homura and Madoka, or any kind of follow up to that. I would have thought that having a solid result of her efforts in the form of a person who is her closest friend in many ways, as well as a kinda-child with herself and Madoka as the "parents" would have a much greater impact on her. I know she has an epic poker face, but even that has its cracks and holes.
Kyouko and Yuma. Kyouko having a steady, good income and a reliable source of cleansing no doubt does wonders for their health, both physically and mentally. And Yuma being safe, cared about, shown affection, well fed, and having a strong friendship with Sabrina is absolutely great.
Hitomi and Madoka being involved but not distressed or in conflict with anyone. And Madoka and Homura's relationship is so good. Sabrina gently encouraging Madoka to be more bold about reaching out to Homura, while gently encouraging Homura to accept Madoka's efforts.
Seeing the Pleiades Saints in their full glory and happy.
This is by far my favorite rendition of Oriko and Kirika. It's amazing how much depth and development you've given them and their relationship. And that scene with Sabrina asking Kirika for relationship advice was just superb. Not only did it demonstrate how much potential Kirika's character has (something which, sadly, I feel like To The Stars really squandered, treating her as more of a prop than a character, which is a bit perplexing, given how well Hieronym fleshed out what was initially a rather flat Oriko), it showed just how awesome O&K's relationship is. Not to mention the fascinating juxtaposition of Oriko's propriety, dignity, grace, poise, and culture with her unashamed, unapologetic, casual displays of affection with Kirika when with others.
Sayaka getting to feel like a hero, valued, respected, believing in herself (after the crisis in Asunaro, and now this, I think she's starting to really take Sabrina's confidence in her to heart. And seeing Sabrina overwhelmed, exhausted, and doubting herself, and taking the lead on helping her, no doubt makes her feel more like a proper member of the team), and not at odds with Homura or Kyouko is just awesome. Her relationship with Homura is also heartwarming, especially given where it started in this quest. She doesn't know about the Witchbomb, or the loops, or Homura's past, but she respects Homura, trusts her, likes working with her, and actually GETS that Homura is bad with people and rather bizarre, but not a bad person or a machine at all.
Homura...well, let's just say that I look here for catharsis when it comes to Homura's canonical suffering. And I can only imagine how she feels about being able to trust and rely upon Mami and Sayaka, with both of them knowing the truth about soul gems and Kyuubey. And I'm actually disappointed that we didn't get more of a reaction to Sabrina telling Homura that she considers herself to be the Wishborne "child" of Homura and Madoka, or any kind of follow up to that. I would have thought that having a solid result of her efforts in the form of a person who is her closest friend in many ways, as well as a kinda-child with herself and Madoka as the "parents" would have a much greater impact on her. I know she has an epic poker face, but even that has its cracks and holes.
Kyouko and Yuma. Kyouko having a steady, good income and a reliable source of cleansing no doubt does wonders for their health, both physically and mentally. And Yuma being safe, cared about, shown affection, well fed, and having a strong friendship with Sabrina is absolutely great.
Hitomi and Madoka being involved but not distressed or in conflict with anyone. And Madoka and Homura's relationship is so good. Sabrina gently encouraging Madoka to be more bold about reaching out to Homura, while gently encouraging Homura to accept Madoka's efforts.
Seeing the Pleiades Saints in their full glory and happy.
This is by far my favorite rendition of Oriko and Kirika. It's amazing how much depth and development you've given them and their relationship. And that scene with Sabrina asking Kirika for relationship advice was just superb. Not only did it demonstrate how much potential Kirika's character has (something which, sadly, I feel like To The Stars really squandered, treating her as more of a prop than a character, which is a bit perplexing, given how well Hieronym fleshed out what was initially a rather flat Oriko), it showed just how awesome O&K's relationship is. Not to mention the fascinating juxtaposition of Oriko's propriety, dignity, grace, poise, and culture with her unashamed, unapologetic, casual displays of affection with Kirika when with others.
- Location
- 👁👄👁
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Hindsight is 20/20. Don't be so harsh on yourself.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The character interaction and slice of life moments are some of the best parts of this quest IMO.
- Location
- 👁👄👁
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Last edited:
- Location
- Illinois
If you received a tag from this post it was most likely an error. I c/p'ed a vote tally and thought spoiler tags would block it from tagging users. My error.
Well, first off, regarding your statements about Firn's weighing in having effectively been a veto, and your complaint that I didn't say anything at the time... I don't think there's much to say. Absence of speech does not mean absence of opinion. We're not P-Zombies here. Just because I didn't react at the time to one post you made doesn't mean I ever agreed with you, and asserting otherwise is just ridiculous.
You go on to say that Firn later vetoed a vote, as a counterargument to my assertion that Firnagzen didn't veto any vote. On that you're right: it appears he did veto a vote. But... the entire matter is irrelevant to the argument you tried to make in the first place and I don't see what discussion value the attack holds. To whit, the post Firnagzen made:
Now, I'm going to go back to the argument you made:
So... what bearing does Firnagzen vetoing Kiniggets vote have on this argument? Yeah, you're clearly right that I was mistaken when I asserted Firn had not "vetoed any vote." But why does it matter beyond its use as an attack on my credibility?
I analyzed the issue a bit further. First off, the Muramasa vote nulled before Firn ever posted that. So, arguing as you did that "Letting her go (Muramasa's plan) was winning, then Firn vetoed that, that's why gemming her won" is... quite completely isolated from this issue. You outlined a clear assertion of events as a cause-and-effect chain, and this issue has nothing to do with that... except that it actually ends up bolstering my argument.
See, the vote tally has a wonderful feature: you can tally votes between any two posts by inputting the post IDs. At the time of that post by Firnagzen, here is the vote tally:
In point of fact by the time Firn explicitly vetoed anything, the vote had already swung in the direction of gemming in the form of a total majority. Firnagzen never vetoed the Muramasa vote: he didn't need to. Again, he opened the curtains on her character, and the result was a vast majority in favor of gemming her. Amusingly, the vote which Firn vetoed was literally a single vote by a single person with no other support for it. Your assertion that a veto had anything to do with what happened is, has been, and remains simply wrong, although I must apologize again for my mistaken assertion that Firnagzen never vetoed anything, as it's clear that he vetoed that particular single-user vote.
Finally, in response to your last statement, that votes do not constitute agreement with a course of action... well, again, going back to your original argument the implication would be that users only voted the way they did because Firn wouldn't let them vote the way they wanted to.
I am going to point something out: plans easily winning with large majorities is not something that happens in that situation. We should all know full well what happens in that situation: users complain about railroading and null their votes instead of voting for the majority option. Reading ahead from here should at least largely demonstrate that in the context of this thread. If Firn had simply said "No, this isn't happening," somebody would inevitably have complained. But that's not what happened. Firnagzen explained Rionna's background, and she was a monster. The majority for gemming her arose from the simple fact that she was actively engaged in torturing at least one soul. It had absolutely nothing to do with Firnagzen "vetoing" Muramasa's vote -- that didn't happen explicitly, and while you're free to claim it happened implicitly, I think it's pretty clear that the floor would have been open for someone to argue that it was in character for Sabrina. That's not what a veto is -- a veto is a "no."
So, again, not seeing any ground for your argument here.
... I'm pretty sure spoilers block tagging. That had better be the case...
Well, first off, regarding your statements about Firn's weighing in having effectively been a veto, and your complaint that I didn't say anything at the time... I don't think there's much to say. Absence of speech does not mean absence of opinion. We're not P-Zombies here. Just because I didn't react at the time to one post you made doesn't mean I ever agreed with you, and asserting otherwise is just ridiculous.
You go on to say that Firn later vetoed a vote, as a counterargument to my assertion that Firnagzen didn't veto any vote. On that you're right: it appears he did veto a vote. But... the entire matter is irrelevant to the argument you tried to make in the first place and I don't see what discussion value the attack holds. To whit, the post Firnagzen made:
OK, look.
Funnily enough, I'm not saying that Gemming Rionna right here and now is a morally unambiguous choice. Sabrina appointing herself judge, jury, andexecutioneris something that is definitely going to trouble her. There are implications to it - Sabrina knows she can be overbearing. She knows that it's all too easy to slip from righteous to self-righteous, to go from justice to tyranny. She doesn't want it to become easy to Gem someone because it's an easy solution. Perhaps it's her best choice, perhaps not, but I'm not declaring it's 100% ideal.
With that said, the most important factor is this:
It's not an ideal world. It's not in Sabrina's nature to simply let her go, because anything that Rionna does is then on her. So I'm going to veto your vote, and I apologise for that, but - really. Villains act, heroes react, Sabrina does not stand by and do nothing when confronted with something like this, because that's the choice. Let her go and become complicit, or do something.
Also, really? No, not everyone needs their own monster. I get by perfectly well without one, for example.
Now, I'm going to go back to the argument you made:
So... what bearing does Firnagzen vetoing Kiniggets vote have on this argument? Yeah, you're clearly right that I was mistaken when I asserted Firn had not "vetoed any vote." But why does it matter beyond its use as an attack on my credibility?
I analyzed the issue a bit further. First off, the Muramasa vote nulled before Firn ever posted that. So, arguing as you did that "Letting her go (Muramasa's plan) was winning, then Firn vetoed that, that's why gemming her won" is... quite completely isolated from this issue. You outlined a clear assertion of events as a cause-and-effect chain, and this issue has nothing to do with that... except that it actually ends up bolstering my argument.
See, the vote tally has a wonderful feature: you can tally votes between any two posts by inputting the post IDs. At the time of that post by Firnagzen, here is the vote tally:
In point of fact by the time Firn explicitly vetoed anything, the vote had already swung in the direction of gemming in the form of a total majority. Firnagzen never vetoed the Muramasa vote: he didn't need to. Again, he opened the curtains on her character, and the result was a vast majority in favor of gemming her. Amusingly, the vote which Firn vetoed was literally a single vote by a single person with no other support for it. Your assertion that a veto had anything to do with what happened is, has been, and remains simply wrong, although I must apologize again for my mistaken assertion that Firnagzen never vetoed anything, as it's clear that he vetoed that particular single-user vote.
Finally, in response to your last statement, that votes do not constitute agreement with a course of action... well, again, going back to your original argument the implication would be that users only voted the way they did because Firn wouldn't let them vote the way they wanted to.
I am going to point something out: plans easily winning with large majorities is not something that happens in that situation. We should all know full well what happens in that situation: users complain about railroading and null their votes instead of voting for the majority option. Reading ahead from here should at least largely demonstrate that in the context of this thread. If Firn had simply said "No, this isn't happening," somebody would inevitably have complained. But that's not what happened. Firnagzen explained Rionna's background, and she was a monster. The majority for gemming her arose from the simple fact that she was actively engaged in torturing at least one soul. It had absolutely nothing to do with Firnagzen "vetoing" Muramasa's vote -- that didn't happen explicitly, and while you're free to claim it happened implicitly, I think it's pretty clear that the floor would have been open for someone to argue that it was in character for Sabrina. That's not what a veto is -- a veto is a "no."
So, again, not seeing any ground for your argument here.
... I'm pretty sure spoilers block tagging. That had better be the case...
Last edited:
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
It appears that they do not, although I'll note that quote tags do.
- Location
- Illinois
Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Fresh meat.That which cannot be undone...
It is all part of my Tragic Villain Backstory, in which the Foul Fiends that occupy this thread declared me fresh meat, nearly a month after I has joined discussion! Now, forever traumatized, I seek to inflict the same pain upon others!
I'm looking at you, @Redshirt Army... I may have forgotten everything that's happen in PMAS canon, but I've not forgotten your INSULTS! FIEND! HERETIC!
On that note, reading your posts before you post them is good; I very nearly B R U T A L L Y I N S U L T E D poor Redshirt for insulting the quality of my meat, which uhh... Heh.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So, I heard there was fresh meat.