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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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kinigget said:
We have prophecy telling us that if we handle this wrong, all our friends will die

Is it really so surprising that I'm wary of antagonizing this girl?
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Yes, but I'm 98% certain that 'handling it wrong' would involve letting her prepare in any way shape or form before we go after her, or letting her wander Mitakihara unrestricted.
 
kinigget said:
I don't like this

I don't like any of this

I see no value in casting judgement here

I don't want to deal with the fallour of detaining her

I don't see us getting any further information out of her now that we've driven her to this level of desperation

We need to back off

Even if she is a monster, we can change that, or at least make her our monster

But it is going to take time

I don't want to destroy the chance of getting information out of her, which gemming/anti-magicing will absolutely do

I still think we need to let her go for now, but we should absolutely set up further meetings

And we should absolutely warn Sayaka to avoid anyone of Rionna's description

I'm kerping Mura's vote for now, but I'll see about writing something up when I get home
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kinigget said:
if the big sticking points are the shades and the murder, we can work on tempering her

she doesn't necessarily need to feel bad about what she's doine to be pointed in less destructive directions
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kinigget said:
I know this is a bit late but...



Either your word is bond, or it isn't.

Saying "it's okay because she's monstrous" sets a very bad precedent

Most people are only going to care that you broke your word and not give teo shits about who you broke it to, remembering that by Magical Girl standards, Rionna is very far from the worst monster out there, and even tries to be discerning about her targets.

Anyway, switching vote

[X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
- [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
[X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
- [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
[X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
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kinigget said:
It's a bit different from "let her go as-is" she gets a warning, and we prepare to deal with properly

Also It's pretty much the only vote left thst doesn't operate on the assumption that we're going to attack her outright
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kinigget said:
So here's a question:

At what point is the price of doing the right thing too much to pay?

We have prophecy telling us that if we handle this wrong, all our friends will die

Is it really so surprising that I'm wary of antagonizing this girl?
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OK, look.

Funnily enough, I'm not saying that Gemming Rionna right here and now is a morally unambiguous choice. Sabrina appointing herself judge, jury, and executioner is something that is definitely going to trouble her. There are implications to it - Sabrina knows she can be overbearing. She knows that it's all too easy to slip from righteous to self-righteous, to go from justice to tyranny. She doesn't want it to become easy to Gem someone because it's an easy solution. Perhaps it's her best choice, perhaps not, but I'm not declaring it's 100% ideal.

With that said, the most important factor is this:

It's not an ideal world. It's not in Sabrina's nature to simply let her go, because anything that Rionna does is then on her. So I'm going to veto your vote, and I apologise for that, but - really. Villains act, heroes react, Sabrina does not stand by and do nothing when confronted with something like this, because that's the choice. Let her go and become complicit, or do something.

Also, really? No, not everyone needs their own monster. I get by perfectly well without one, for example. :V
 
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Legal system action mode, legal verbiage. We can act without lying here. Say something that doesn't commit, except in the way we need for consistency. Will that be an effective way to not have an immoral start to this?

Riposte in whatever actions we execute next can go more abstract, or stick to current events. We might profitably go into the "she said she didn't want a fight with us" direction as a platform to say we are leaving now, don't attack anybody else. Only those things. This should be more truth compliant?

Perhaps even better if we file out and say her visit is Over.

Furthest extreme:
If we want to say nothing, we just do our good byes with a mild displeased face. Point at the construct, show her the "stop" palm, calmly take the Privacy away, repeat the stop, and beckon Mami to come away from the room with us. Say nothing. If prompted, we say leaving. Rionna should want us to back away, as it would give her a better position. I predict she will blink, due to the no-sale a moment ago. Us not going all in on her instantly is a strategic gift. I expect it will be quite hollow.
 
Screw it.

[] Put a few bits of grief through her brain, too fast for her to react. Make sure she's down.
[] Remove her Soul Gem remotely with Grief; make sure it's inactive and quiescent.
[] Try to clean as much of the blood and gore up as you can with your grief. Encase Rionna's body in Grief, so as to prevent more of a mess.
[] Drop the privacy sphere.

EDIT: Changed.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Screw it.

[X] Put a few bits of grief through her brain, too fast for her to react. Make sure she's down.
[X] Remove her Soul Gem remotely with Grief; make sure it's inactive and quiescent.
[X] Try to clean as much of the blood and gore up as you can with your grief. Encase Rionna's body in Grief, so as to prevent more of a mess.
[X] Drop the privacy sphere.
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If you're wanting to neutralize Rionna, please take a look at my vote?
 
SaltyWaffles said:
I would change "degem" to "kill her body immediately with a headshot via grief marbles". But I think it's good, otherwise.

[X] Godwinson
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That falls under "with all needed force", if needed. I left the level of force open-ended because Firn is already looking to nudge things about if not flat out railroad. General intent is what's important to convey.
 
Godwinson said:
That falls under "with all needed force", if needed. I left the level of force open-ended because Firn is already looking to nudge things about if not flat out railroad. General intent is what's important to convey.
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How are we supposed to make an antimagic box that doesn't negate timestop when we try to bring it into timestop?

Just have Kirika blast her with antimagic from timestop, then immediately headshot her with a grief bullet at the same moment. Far simpler and quicker. If we need to revive her, well, Sayaka has Yuma's healing power now (or should, anyway).
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
How are we supposed to make an antimagic box that doesn't negate timestop when we try to bring it into timestop?
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Kirika's antimagic can have exclusions built into it. The antimagic enchantment in the box would exclude nullifying Homura's magic.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Sep 12, 2018 at 7:51 AM, finished with 145047 posts and 46 votes.
  • [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, have her call for Homura to timestop now. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, explain shade hazard then create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades, then bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Have Sayaka or Kirika enchant an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not our group's). Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body stored in Homura's shield or our hammerspace for the foreseeable future, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
    [X] null
    [X] Act. Visibly restrain yourself. Agree verbally to leave her alone, but ask what she tried to do, first. Keep Riona unbalanced.
    [X] At the same time, signal Mami to tag you and Homura and have Homura activate her magic.
    -[X] If Riona is somehow included in timestop:
    --[X] Act first: Detain Riona with Grief Fog, take the Gem, threaten to break it.
    --[X] If anything goes wrong, no holds barred. Purée her. Save the Gem unless Riona still tries to attack.
    --[X] Otherwise, continue.
    [X] In timestop:
    -[X] Consult Mami on the danger of tripping Riona's shades. Explain briefly. Employ Grief hax if needed.
    -[X] Leave, convene with Mami and Homura.
    --[X] Make sure Riona remains time-stoped at all times.
    --[X] Things went wrong, get Sayaka and go to Oriko's. Insist if needed.
    --[X] Get Kirika to enchant everything you might need to antimagic Riona, Gem and body.*
    --[X] Explain eveything. Avoid Social Bombs.
    -[X] Plan (listen to opinions):
    --[X] Blast Riona and her surrounding area with Anti Magic (Sayaka and Kirika).
    --[X] Use Anti Magic restraints on Riona and her Gem.
    --[X] Restrain Riona completely.
    --[X] Mami and Homura know their roles better than you do.
    -[X] Enact plan.
    [X] Call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [X] Kill her
    [x] Fine. Release the isolation field.
    [x] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [x] Given the circumstance, while it's regrettable, I agree it's best that you leave Mitakihara at your earliest convenience. Further I must insist that you don't create anymore shades in our city for any reason or I'm afraid conflict will be unavoidable. That said, wish her a good night.
    [x] Leave with Mami. You're done here.
    [x] When you're out a considerable range from Riona, contact Homura by phone for a timestop meeting. Update Homura and Mami of the situation. You weren't able to come to any agreement with Riona. Bring up Riona's intentions to leave in the morning and threat assessment. Avoid social bombs.
    [X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
    -[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
    [X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    [X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.
    [x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
    [X] Shrug casually
    -[X] Alright. Wasn't planning on keeping you trapped anyways, anti-spy zone is for spies like QB, not you.
    --[X] Release the field, hug Mami, telepathically request time-stop.
    ---[X] Discuss.
    [X] Cleansing offer.
    [X] If that's so, then when and why did she go from seeking justice to judging people without knowing their crimes, unjustly taking other people's sisters? When did she give up, and start spending her time inflicting pain instead of trying to get her sister back?
    [X] Don't allow her to leave. Don't allow her to harm you. Don't allow her to harm herself. Use all means necessary.
    [X] Talk to her:
    -[X] There are/were options. Just as an example, she could have cut a deal with a potential, that she would fulfill their wish and some in exchange for them using their wish to bring back her sister. Somebody somewhere would go for it. Healing is a common enough wish, and not difficult to provide.
    -[X] Argue that the only thing she's accomplished with her current track has been to inflict pain on others and deny herself any hope of getting what she actually wants.
    -[X] Argue that the incubator tries to provoke isolation and infighting for a reason: less cooperation means less chance of people getting what they want, and thus better rates of witching. She could always punish the architect if she's not satisfied yet. A shot at that, you can provide.
    [X] Agree to end the meeting shortly.
    -[X] Tell Riona you regret that she wasn't able to find what she was searching for here.
    [X] Release the Field.
    [X] Before letting her be, call her out and get concessions in exchange for her actions, without pissing her off too badly:
    -[X] Priority: Arrange a new meeting before she leaves, with plenty of time to spare.
    -[X] Priority: She does not attack nor use magic against anyone in Mitakihara.
    -[X] She'll answer all our questions next meeting.
    [X] Go. Once you're away:
    -[X] Timestop meeting. Include Sayaka.
    -[X] Explain everything. Avoid social bombs. Don't take sides, be impartial.
    [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, request immediate timestop. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades. Go bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Obtain an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not ours) using Kirika's enchantment. Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box, with an antimagic pulse from Sayaka active as you do. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body in stasis in Homura's shield, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
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Y'know, I get that it's in Sabrina's nature to want to help magical girls, even Rionna. Which is fine, but as I think most of us have realised, she's not properly equiped to offer the help some of them need. And I don't mean that in the power sense, as far as that goes, Sabrina's well set. But if she really is set on redeeming or rehabitilating people like Rionna, she's gonna need professional help. The idea of her informing a psychologist about magical girls to offer therapy has been raised before, I believe, but if we don't wanna keep Rionna as a gem forever, we're gonna have to actually start looking actively into it. Hell, if we had a pyschologist before, we might have made more progress with Oriko's self-destructive mindset already, or with Airi.

...

Not to mention Homura...

So yeah, Sabrina, might want to be putting up some job adds soon. I have the feeling she's gonna need it to deal with the fallout of Rionna. Hell, Sabrina might need one for herself just to keep herself sane and be able to rant to someone who's job it is to listen to people rant.

Search for PMMM's own doctor Yamada go?
 
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Alert: You Were Told Not To Do This
  • Staff Post
    • you were told not to do this
    kinigget said:
    I don't like this

    I don't like any of this

    I see no value in casting judgement here

    I don't want to deal with the fallour of detaining her

    I don't see us getting any further information out of her now that we've driven her to this level of desperation

    We need to back off

    Even if she is a monster, we can change that, or at least make her our monster

    But it is going to take time

    I don't want to destroy the chance of getting information out of her, which gemming/anti-magicing will absolutely do

    I still think we need to let her go for now, but we should absolutely set up further meetings

    And we should absolutely warn Sayaka to avoid anyone of Rionna's description

    I'm kerping Mura's vote for now, but I'll see about writing something up when I get home
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    kinigget said:
    I know this is a bit late but...



    Either your word is bond, or it isn't.

    Saying "it's okay because she's monstrous" sets a very bad precedent

    Most people are only going to care that you broke your word and not give teo shits about who you broke it to, remembering that by Magical Girl standards, Rionna is very far from the worst monster out there, and even tries to be discerning about her targets.

    Anyway, switching vote

    [X] Your power is to enslave and torment other magical girls?
    - [X] If you continue on this path, it will lead to conflict between us in future.
    [X] But for now, you came to Mitakihara in peace, and we'll ask you to leave in peace.
    - [X] If we can get your word to leave Mitakihara in peace, we'll drop the shield and escort you to the airport.
    [X] add to TODO list: develop soul shielding, liberate Edinburgh.
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    You should neither attempt to justify or excuse Rionna's actions, as per the statement and request of @Firnagzen. In making it an emphasis of your post, how she is not the worst monster and how she is discerning in her targets. After evaluation, this has been concluded to be in violation of this statement of @Firnagzen. While your post does refer to her as a monster, it fails to refrain from excusing her, by comparing her to others, thus making her seem less bad than she is, rather than simply letting her be a bad person.

    Firnagzen said:
    More importantly, some argue over the heinousness of Rionna's actions. Let me make this clear from an out of character position: Do not try and excuse her actions. You can justify them, perhaps, that she's working under a horrible system. She is, and so are Sabrina's friends. However, Rionna has done terrible things. She has not so far displayed any remorse for it. Don't try and both-sides the issue - it's not an acceptable thing to do in political discourse nor here. You're entitled to question her further, yes, or speculate that she might be faking or bluffing or whatnot. But she has absolutely done horrible things.
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    As this is an incredibly mild violation, I have in the spirit of kindness in the thread, and the fact that this isn't enforcing an actual rule of Sufficient Velocity, decided that I'm going to let you off with a staff notice, but be aware that since you have done this kind of apologia for Rionna before, if this happens again, I will follow with infractions.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Similarly:
    [X] Null

    When I first voted for Kaizuki's plan, it was about discussing tactics to detain Riona with our allies.

    Since then the plan has gone to "degemming" (I assumed temporary and could still support it even with a flinch), then it has gone to "degem and store indefinitely in a box" (eek!), and now people are just discussing shooting Riona in the head.

    Can no longer support this.
     
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    Godwinson said:
    @Redshirt Army
    Modified vote in order to take your points into account.

    [X] Use grief to communicate with Mami, have her call for Homura to timestop now. Give Rionna no time outside of the privacy field to send commands to her shades.
    -[X] While doing this, continue speaking to Rionna so as to distract her from what you're doing. Get her attention focused entirely on you.
    [X] Once in timestop, explain shade hazard then create a griefhax soul viewing effect (like the one used to observe Oriko's soul), and use it to avoid any lingering shades, then bring in Sayaka. Explain what you've learned about Rionna to them. You're not going to let that stand.
    -[X] Explain plan to team, ask for input and advice.
    --[X] Plan: Have Sayaka or Kirika enchant an antimagic box that suppresses Rionna's magic (and not our group's). Timestop degem Rionna immediately into the box. Have Sayaka try to copy Rionna's magic, so that we can try to put the shades to rest, and have access to someone who can diagnose soul maladies on hand. Keep Rionna's body stored in Homura's shield or our hammerspace for the foreseeable future, until we've got enough other girls working with us, and stability, to try to rehabilitate her.
    [X] If anything goes wrong during this plan, and Rionna looks to become combat capable again, immediately degem with all needed force.
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    If we're gemming Riona, might I ask that you add in some anti-magic scotch tape? Gemming someone isn't easy, I don't think we've ever managed to do it without the target fighting back, and the last time we tried to gank someonefrom timestop we got into an epic battle with Oriko and Kirika.
    It would be a lot easier to gank Riona if she were anti-magiced before she was even brought into timestop. Enchanting a piece of scotch tape with anti-magic, and then using grief to stick it to her while grabbing her gem, would prevent her from trying to use soul magic or shades while we put her gem in the box.

    Furthermore, it would be useful to have the ability to randomly anti-magic anyone we want in the future, for when we run into more meguca like her. Like, for example, when we have to deal with the inevitable fallout in Edinburgh.
     
    [X] Null

    I am very much opposed to ganking Riona. To be clear, if we do gank her I want it to be effective, swift, and without ANY opportunity for her to fight back. Which is why I'll say again that you should add touching her with anti-magic enchantments as the first thing that puts her into timestop, rather than grabbing her gem (since that gives her a split second to react before her gem hits the box).
    5 or more pieces of anti-magic tape hitting her simultaneously in separate areas (forehead, back of the neck, hands, ankles, etc) would prevent her from ripping them off quickly enough to matter.


    Reasons I personally don't want to gank her though:
    1. I don't want to have to split our attention between Mitakihara and Edinburgh. I thought that Oriko said we weren't even supposed to leave Mitakihara for long periods of time, but since we were fine going to Asunaro maybe that's less of a bad idea than I thought? Either way, more time spent filling in the Edinburgh power vacuum is less time spent dealing with all the things we have going on in Mitakihara. I personally don't like that. And it's going to be a lot of time that we spend in Edinburgh. Looking at Afghanistan and Iraq, power vacuums are not easy to fill.
    2. She came here to talk, and hasn't made any moves to attack us other than what she thought was necessary to get out. Personally, I don't like attacking her first. She did try to mind control us, but it both failed miserably and was probably more out of desperation than an attempt to manipulate us for the evulz.
    3. Unless we can redeem her, the only way we're getting anything out of her is to have Sayaka copy her power. That puts unreasonable pressure on Sayaka to learn the witch bomb.


    Add touching her soul gem directly with anti-magic tape to the list of places on her that we should anti-magic. Because mobile hates me and won't let me edit at the top of my post.
     
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