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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Yeah, I don't think she'd be able to pull off a lie like that. Not with her demonstrated character. She might be one of those people that operates by convincing everyone they're terrible at lying, but that feels like it's reaching. And I'm not sure what her motive would be. If she can't take us now she wouldn't be able to take us with most of her shades gone, even without us pulling in the rest of our rapidly-growing alliance. And most of the things she'd need illicit shades for would end with us smashing her flat.
 
"I won't give up what I have."

Then you shouldn't have come here to begin with!

I'm really, really about done with her, to be completely honest, since we're getting nowhere. She's so infuriating at this point that I honestly do not care anymore if we find a peaceful solution or just go up and kill her, I just want to be done with her so we can go back to interacting with girls who appreciate Sabrina's herculean efforts and respect her godlike patience and give her hugs.

Honestly don't know what course of action would be best here going forward, since I (and Sabrina too, it seems) are not in the calm, rational mindset needed to make good decisions regarding this stubborn mule.

Edit: I meant "gem her" when I said "go up and kill her", sorry for the confusion.
 
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Laurelin said:
"I won't give up what I have."

Then you shouldn't have come here to begin with!

I'm really, really about done with her, to be completely honest, since we're getting nowhere. She's so infuriating at this point that I honestly do not care anymore if we find a peaceful solution or just go up and kill her, I just want to be done with her so we can go back to interacting with girls who appreciate Sabrina's herculean efforts and respect her godlike patience and give her hugs.
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If we "just go up and kill her", there will be less to appreciate and respect. We have the tools needed to gem her.
 
Firnagzen said:
But once more: she has done terrible things. She hasn't displayed remorse about it.
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Yes. Again, not arguing otherwise.

I feel like we're talking past each other? Let me explain my mindset here.

It reads to me like you're putting your foot down on the topic of her soul slavery, some additional atrocities like unashamedly collecting potential innocents, and other common meguca misdeeds. Riona done bad, full stop.

However, when he wrote
Vebyast said:
Firnagzen never felt the need to inform us about the moral or ethical character of girls whose on-screen kill count included multiple muggle fatalities. I am damned sure that Riona has done something that needs to stop and is worth putting in the effort to stop.
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It sounded to me like Vebyast was assuming additional terrible things, beyond what we've all read and discussed and speculated about. Unknown, unknowable, but dramatically evil things worthy of GM comment.

Based on my own understanding of your statement, it seemed unfair to use it to argue for additional evidence that's never even been hinted at, thus my response saying he's reading too much into it.

Do either of you guys want to settle this communication error for me? Was Vebyast just referring to the known atrocities? Was Firn actually hinting at additional unknown atrocities?
 
Laurelin said:
That's what I meant, gemming her. You could argue it's not very different from the 'k' word, I guess, but I did mean 'gem the mule' not 'kill the mule'. Sorry for the mixup.
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Mmm. Gemming versus killing aside, it's not a good approach to give up on people because they're difficult to talk to. Talking to Sasa is going to make me want to pull my own teeth out, but that doesn't mean that Sabrina doesn't need to follow up on that first meeting.

Advocate for giving up on Rionna because her actions are reprehensible, advocate for it because of her lack of remorse. Don't advocate for it because she doesn't "appreciate and respect" us.
 
The very basis of this problem is trust.
She doesn't trust us and she thinks we don't trust her (which to be fair, is probably true).
And without trust we really can't help each other.
So we need mutual trust, but how?
So far we have done nothing but say we are deserving of her secrets with no proof at all.
And we don't know if she's right or wrong because we can't read her mind.
Think, Future, how do people get each others trust, if they have no basis with each other?
Does one act first in a blind show of trust? No, that is just foolish.
Does one trade with one another and sees the other keep their side of the deal? Has potential, but what would we trade is unclear.
The reason we cannot convince her to let go of her shades, assuming no sentimental feelings, is because we have not offered something of equivalent value and we cannot promise that immediately, therefore she cannot give it up, because they are most likely filling several critical roles, maybe when we have something that can replace it.
Does one find something they both believe in and expand from there? Understandable, but more for regular relationships, not trade deals.
Do you have any ideas, SV?
 
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[x] Okay, then, you're going to take a stab in the dark.
[x] You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. If she swears that she needs to keep some shade for some reason other than "safety" or "science"... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to the network of researchers you're building to help with exotic problems.
[x] Does that sound like what she needs?

Minor tweaks.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Mmm. Gemming versus killing aside, it's not a good approach to give up on people because they're difficult to talk to. Talking to Sasa is going to make me want to pull my own teeth out, but that doesn't mean that Sabrina doesn't need to follow up on that first meeting.

Advocate for giving up on Rionna because her actions are reprehensible, advocate for it because of her lack of remorse. Don't advocate for it because she doesn't "appreciate and respect" us.
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You are right, of course. It's just so frustrating. Given how I don't think I'm the only one to feel that way, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to reconsider the option I raised two updates ago of letting her leave for now and come back to her later, when we have more information, are better prepared, have calmed down and don't have a doomsday clock ticking down? I, myself, can't see what else we could do to try and proceed right now, unless we throw subtlety completely out the window and go full Nanoha with "I'm gonna hit you with my big lazorz and you're gonna be my friend when I do!".

Well, this is why I don't make vote options, I'm not rational or clearheaded enough and too impulsive. x.x
 
Vebyast said:
[x] Okay, then, you're going to take a stab in the dark.
[x] You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. If she swears that she needs to keep some shade for some reason other than "safety" or "science"... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to the network of researchers you're building to help with exotic problems.
[x] Does that sound like what she needs?
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Not sure I agree with the red part. Mostly in tone. Riona's already defensive about being judged, I feel like the red part adds to that burden when it doesn't need to.

Like I'm picturing Sabrina rolling her eyes and full on making air quotes at Riona. She doesn't take it well.

Edit: alternative suggestion
[] If there are some shade(s) that are crucial to keep for one reason or another... you won't ask questions. As long as she makes an effort to keep numbers low, then she'll have access to blah blah

Otherwise I'm content. No wait, needs Chibrina.
 
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Vebyast said:
[x] Okay, then, you're going to take a stab in the dark.
[x] You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. If she swears that she needs to keep some shade for some reason other than "safety" or "science"... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to the network of researchers you're building to help with exotic problems.
[x] Does that deal sound like what she needs?
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Hmm. I like the general approach a lot, but I think this needs to be tweaked a touch to segue a bit better from how the last update ended.

[x] She won't give it up now, fine. But would she keep those souls trapped, if it truly became no longer necessary?
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to, but you can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. If any of her shades are someone she wanted to save... you won't ask questions, and you'll provide all the assistance she could want with that.
[x] Does that deal sound like what she needs?
 
redzonejoe said:
Like I'm picturing Sabrina rolling her eyes and full on making air quotes at Riona. She doesn't take it well.
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Hrm. Yeah, that wasn't the intent; I was trying to leave enough room for Rionna to have her privacy by negating a narrow class. I'd fix but it looks like redshirt beat me to it.

[x] Redshirt Army

And now I sleep, because it's 0245 here and sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
 
Redshirt Army said:
[x] But. But. If any of her shades are someone she wanted to save... you won't ask questions, and you'll provide all the assistance she could want with that.
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This fixes the problem with tone, but now I'm worried the scope is too narrow or exclusive. As I said before, there might be one or more powers she finds crucial to some aspect of her life that doesn't fit the criteria.

Perhaps she's abysmal at fighting witches herself, but has a Yui-tier combat shade that takes care of hunting? Even with a clear seed, witches still need to be put down on the regular. Can shades be k.i.a.?

Or maybe one of the shades acts as a relay or power amplifier, and she relies on her to extend her reach across her city, allows her to travel without a hoard following her around, etc.

I'm down for trimming her shades down as much as possible, I just worry that a poorly worded demand turns what should be a fair concession into an outright dealbreaker. She won't accept crippling herself without a lot of trust and good incentive.


There's a part of me that wants to 'brag' about staying up late. 2:45? Hah, it's 6am for me! But then I remembered that I have a new job and need to wake up in 3 hours. Eep! SLEEP, WAIT FOR ME I'M COMING TOO
 
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...I have an idea.
Let's just stop talking about this and talk about something that can actually go somewhere like say for the night she's over here, helping us with dewitching.
Because it's clear she won't give up her shades and shade making (considering that she probably loses some shades to meguca's and witches and such, she has to have a replenishing supply to guard the entire city) and we are not actually giving her an incentive to.
Like, all we're relying on is... I don't actually know what the carrot is in this situation.
But, anyways, we got sidetracked, we wanted to talk about dewitching because it's reeeaaalllly important. We can talk about the Shades when we have an actual replacement for them. We should ask if she's okay with helping with dewitching for the night considering she doesn't have anything else she needs to do, and who knows this might convince her we can help.
...:oops:(shame filled self promotion ahead) maybe we can try my idea with her help?
Edit:I mean we can totally gem her afterward, but we shouldn't waste this chance to gain a soul guca's help
 
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redzonejoe said:
poorly worded demand
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redzonejoe said:
I'm down for trimming her shades down as much as possible
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It's not about trimming her shades down or making demands. The hypothesis is that she doesn't care about any of her shades except maybe one or two of them and she'll happily let all of them go except those one or two. But she'd also refuse to tell us why she cares about those one or two, so we have to give her a way out, something that lets her keep them without explaining it.

The ideal response isn't anything like "grudgingly giving in". It's something like "I'm not going to say it but that was exactly what I needed, you guessed the perfect concession and I'm clinging to it for dear life while pretending you're driving a hard bargain". It's incredibly unlikely that I've guessed it perfectly, but who knows!

Vote seems like it still needs more tweaks. At the very least a "goals" section to explain the reasoning so brinapilot can fill in the cracks. But that's for some time other than 0305 local.
 
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Vebyast said:
It's not about trimming her shades down or making demands. The hypothesis is that she doesn't care about any of her shades except maybe one or two of them and she'll happily let all of them go except those one or two. But she'd also refuse to tell us why she cares about those one or two, so we have to give her a "way out" so she can keep them without explaining it.
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Uhm, she's most likely using at least some of them to guard Edinburgh, Who will guard Edinburgh in place of those shades?
 
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Quick question, are we hugging Mami with pre-enchanted grief? Otherwise, making a chibi from it is a wee bit... risky. We can't black out next to Rionna, which would happen if we made a chibi from scratch.
 
Firnagzen said:
"I mean, if those are your goals, then frankly, you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to work alone," you say, folding your arms. "I mean, you said it yourself - everyone's tried it. More specifically, I am trying it, both of them. They're both high on my priority list."

"And that'd be bleeding fantastic, once that were what I was doing," Rionna snorts, and looks away. "I've tried those things, so I have, and I want those things."
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Am I the only one having trouble parsing this line from Rionna?

Once what were what she was doing? Trying to reverse Witching? Shooting herself in the foot? Trying to work alone?
WAS that what she was doing?
What does "so I have" relate to in the second sentence?
If she wants those things, what is the problem? Why doesn't she want help?

Why isn't everything bleeding fantastic?
 
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Firnagzen said:
And again? Don't try to excuse her actions.
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Well, I could tell Diplomacy isn't going to work, ever since the chapter where "reasonable, highly spoken of, compared to Mami, Rionna" was replaced with "confrontational, does horrific stuff in the name of 'justice', and maybe not always 'justice', Rionna", but was willing to let players at least try.

But with you sounding off on the moral excusability of Rionna's actions, there doesn't appear to be any real options for the quest.

So how did the quest end up in this pickle? I blame bad decisions in storytelling based on a bias for preferential treatment given to certain long term posters and use of the narrative to flip the context of debates, so that the edgelords with murderboners will be less incensed and the posters they were arguing with will be provoked into getting more heated in their debates.

And frankly, the quality of the Quest has plummeted during this dumpsterfire!

Just for the record, I am not one who normally tells someone what they should and should not write. Writers should write for themselves, not what others think would make for a good story - even if it's a participitatory medium such as a thread.

And you are not the only writer, that I have noticed, to have occasionally dipped into this kind of behavior, unconsciously or deliberate.

However, you have repeatedly engaged in this behavior throughout the thread, and you are being rather blatent about it in the current arguement.

To the point that I, who am philosophically opposed to Rewrites or Reboots of any kind, would recommend you Reboot the Quest, fresh from any arguments, and refrain from adapting the narrative in order to rephrase debates.

Edit: I forgot to explain why I recommend a Reboot.

Your last chapter wasn't any good. It was vaguely the same as the previous two or three chapters and I could hear the train whistle for the QM Railroad. And yet posters are so invested in your Quest, that several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it.
 
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