- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
This could just mean that we're supposed to punch Rionna until she's out, but if we take it to mean that there is a "right approach" to convincing her to cooperate... what could that be?
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
This could just mean that we're supposed to punch Rionna until she's out, but if we take it to mean that there is a "right approach" to convincing her to cooperate... what could that be?
- Location
- California
Guys! Guys!
I got an idea completly unrelated to the current conversation!
It's about the Dewitching Project!
You know the chibis right! And how they serve as extra bodies for our soul!
Obviously they've been brought up as possible bodies before, but that probably won't work, since they're most likely made specifically for our soul.
And if we tried to make 'empty' ones they'd probably fail to, considering fitting souls to a body doesn't sound like a one size fits all situation.
But you know what can be keyed to specific souls: Enchantments.
More specifically, control enchantments.
If we made a body using greif control, and then made a control enchantment that can control the body, and tied that to a specific soul, in this case a clear seed, it might just work!
... of course we'd probably have to get better at enchanting first, and learn to key enchantments to clear seeds, but hey, if things were easy, it wouldn't be satisfying.
I got an idea completly unrelated to the current conversation!
It's about the Dewitching Project!
You know the chibis right! And how they serve as extra bodies for our soul!
Obviously they've been brought up as possible bodies before, but that probably won't work, since they're most likely made specifically for our soul.
And if we tried to make 'empty' ones they'd probably fail to, considering fitting souls to a body doesn't sound like a one size fits all situation.
But you know what can be keyed to specific souls: Enchantments.
More specifically, control enchantments.
If we made a body using greif control, and then made a control enchantment that can control the body, and tied that to a specific soul, in this case a clear seed, it might just work!
... of course we'd probably have to get better at enchanting first, and learn to key enchantments to clear seeds, but hey, if things were easy, it wouldn't be satisfying.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
So what other angles are there? Trying to figure out what she wants is apparently a dead end. Arguing about what she's done will get half the thread banned. Trying to figure out what she's trying to do, the same. We've tried to offer her shit and we can't do that without knowing what she wants. Maybe we can try to dictate what she wants by applying some threats? Give up, accept that this is a boss fight, and start with the face punching?
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
We have made it this far without having to kill or permanently gem anyone, and I'm going to try every possible option to keep it that way.
But if it were necessary to take Rionna out, here and now is not the time to do it. We need to enchant defenses against her abilities. We need to know what the situation is in Edinburgh and whether it will spiral out of control if unattended. We need to make full effective use of our assets and teammates. We need to avoid the bad PR that attacking a guest will bring.
If we do end up making war on Rionna, then it will be a properly prepared invasion. We'll reconnoiter, we'll develop weapons and tactics. And quite possibly with timestop, we'll do all this in time to be waiting for her when her plane lands back in Edinburgh.
But if it were necessary to take Rionna out, here and now is not the time to do it. We need to enchant defenses against her abilities. We need to know what the situation is in Edinburgh and whether it will spiral out of control if unattended. We need to make full effective use of our assets and teammates. We need to avoid the bad PR that attacking a guest will bring.
If we do end up making war on Rionna, then it will be a properly prepared invasion. We'll reconnoiter, we'll develop weapons and tactics. And quite possibly with timestop, we'll do all this in time to be waiting for her when her plane lands back in Edinburgh.
Not the way we've been going about it, clearly. That could mean that we've been too judgmental and insulting, or making too many demands when we don't even have her interest. Frankly, we haven't given Rionna much reason to trust us or work with us.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Or maybe we take her out before she has a chance to change her contingencies to take into account our ability to isolate her from her shades?
As for that whole "we've been too judgemental" tripe?
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
This feels like the same kind of circular reasoning I argued against back when Sabrina's thoughts first reflected the thread's extreme position previously.
The thread was on fire, Firn stepped in to help put out the fire. I think you're reading more into it than is there.
Speaking of putting out fires...
Yeah, you're right. Been a long and very argumentative few weeks in this thread, some of the frustration between updates carries over. I'll be better in attitude.
As I said before though, I'm very much not excusing her actions. Just trying to argue about the consequences of our own. If it sounded otherwise, that was a mistake and I'm trying to fix it.
Hehe... You're not wrong.
- Location
- London, 1935. August.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
My knee-jerk reaction is that it's time to start breaking out the threats and/or insults, but I don't think that's particularly in-character for Sabrina, nor do I think Riona would really believe them. It would just come across as a sad, desperate attempt to get her to let something slip.
My next reaction is to do something completely off-the-wall. I don't know what, something crazy. Maybe start creating a barrier around the privacy sphere, or get Niko to activate Jyuubey, or try to hug Riona, or something equally ridiculous and non-sequitur. But those are all bad ideas and would basically just be attempts to shock Riona into a new reaction.
I don't think that's really going to make much of a difference, based on her reactions so far. She's at least trying to imply (truthfully or not) that free cleansing and dewitching are things she wants but aren't the Thing She's Doing. And also...we don't know what kind of progress towards dewitching it is, really. Presenting it to her as evidence that we've made progress is just as likely to backfire if she looks at it and immediately says that we've definitely done something to the witch inside but it's not any closer to becoming a soul gem. That's part of what we need a soulguca for, really, to tell if we're moving in the right direction.
Not that I think showing her a Clear Seed is a bad idea, I just don't think that's the way to go about it. I kind of think our best bet is to shift the tone and direction of the conversation completely with the next update. She's given us an ultimatum that this conversation isn't going anywhere so let's switch up the conversation. What I'm thinking of is something like asking these questions we have about what she expected of this meeting outright. And I don't recall, have we actually answered the question we came here to answer? Specifically, what our theories about our origin are and why our soul is so odd. I kind of want to just shove control of the conversation over to her and see what she does with it.
And if she does nothing, I feel like that's when we should bring out the Clear Seed. Not in a "here's proof I know what I'm doing!" kind of way, but more in a "well, since you're here anyway, I might as well ask for some advice about soul-related problems I've been having" way. You could also add the more legit sorta-threats there too. "Well, you're here now [and with the false implication that you can't leave until I drop the privacy sphere], might as well get your advice. We're probably going to end up fighting each other if you insist on aggressively refusing to change behavior you seem to admit is unpleasant even when you have a better option, so I'd like to at least ask about these things while you're still alive/conscious/not a witch/[whatever threat or insult we might want to go with]."
Also, there's always the chance we're missing something majorly vital about her powers that messes with what our response should be. Is it possible she can't actually take our souls unless we attack her first? Is it possible she's being literal when she says she can't give up her shades and her powers aren't actually the ones that create the shades. Perhaps her mysterious sister creates the shades and she just has more generic soul magic and covers for her or something. I just feel like there's something odd going on here. Actually, to add onto my "suddenly ask her very different questions" thought, I almost want to straight up ask her is she's even capable of taking our soul at the moment. It seems like a disarmingly straightforward question to ask, and it's not like it really reveals anything major about our thought process.
Finally:
This sounds like an odd phrasing to me. It makes sense and is believable, so it could just mean what it appears to mean, but it feels like something else. That might just be that it's 3:30AM right now, though.
My next reaction is to do something completely off-the-wall. I don't know what, something crazy. Maybe start creating a barrier around the privacy sphere, or get Niko to activate Jyuubey, or try to hug Riona, or something equally ridiculous and non-sequitur. But those are all bad ideas and would basically just be attempts to shock Riona into a new reaction.
I don't think that's really going to make much of a difference, based on her reactions so far. She's at least trying to imply (truthfully or not) that free cleansing and dewitching are things she wants but aren't the Thing She's Doing. And also...we don't know what kind of progress towards dewitching it is, really. Presenting it to her as evidence that we've made progress is just as likely to backfire if she looks at it and immediately says that we've definitely done something to the witch inside but it's not any closer to becoming a soul gem. That's part of what we need a soulguca for, really, to tell if we're moving in the right direction.
Not that I think showing her a Clear Seed is a bad idea, I just don't think that's the way to go about it. I kind of think our best bet is to shift the tone and direction of the conversation completely with the next update. She's given us an ultimatum that this conversation isn't going anywhere so let's switch up the conversation. What I'm thinking of is something like asking these questions we have about what she expected of this meeting outright. And I don't recall, have we actually answered the question we came here to answer? Specifically, what our theories about our origin are and why our soul is so odd. I kind of want to just shove control of the conversation over to her and see what she does with it.
And if she does nothing, I feel like that's when we should bring out the Clear Seed. Not in a "here's proof I know what I'm doing!" kind of way, but more in a "well, since you're here anyway, I might as well ask for some advice about soul-related problems I've been having" way. You could also add the more legit sorta-threats there too. "Well, you're here now [and with the false implication that you can't leave until I drop the privacy sphere], might as well get your advice. We're probably going to end up fighting each other if you insist on aggressively refusing to change behavior you seem to admit is unpleasant even when you have a better option, so I'd like to at least ask about these things while you're still alive/conscious/not a witch/[whatever threat or insult we might want to go with]."
Also, there's always the chance we're missing something majorly vital about her powers that messes with what our response should be. Is it possible she can't actually take our souls unless we attack her first? Is it possible she's being literal when she says she can't give up her shades and her powers aren't actually the ones that create the shades. Perhaps her mysterious sister creates the shades and she just has more generic soul magic and covers for her or something. I just feel like there's something odd going on here. Actually, to add onto my "suddenly ask her very different questions" thought, I almost want to straight up ask her is she's even capable of taking our soul at the moment. It seems like a disarmingly straightforward question to ask, and it's not like it really reveals anything major about our thought process.
Finally:
This sounds like an odd phrasing to me. It makes sense and is believable, so it could just mean what it appears to mean, but it feels like something else. That might just be that it's 3:30AM right now, though.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
So we're pretty sure she doesn't have a witch to fix, she doesn't need cleansing, that leaves "her sister is a shade", right? She's obviously not willing to release her sister's shade, and would certainly fight us over it if we insisted.
However, a thought: She doesn't know that we have Word of Precog, so she doesn't know that we have a reasonable guess.
So she has three options:
...Oh. Huh. In the tradition of "people desperately trying not to be the villains of their own stories", maybe the callous disregard she displays toward subjects of her power is because she needs to believe that they're not suffering so she hasn't been torturing her sister this whole time?
However, a thought: She doesn't know that we have Word of Precog, so she doesn't know that we have a reasonable guess.
So she has three options:
- Release her sister's shade. Obviously not happening.
- Say "not this one", and either:
- Fight
- Explain why she needs to keep that one shade.
- Fight
...Oh. Huh. In the tradition of "people desperately trying not to be the villains of their own stories", maybe the callous disregard she displays toward subjects of her power is because she needs to believe that they're not suffering so she hasn't been torturing her sister this whole time?
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- Location
- California
It's been implied that she needs to subdue magical girl before she can take their soul, perhaps just touch them?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
There's definitely some merit to that take, @Vebyast .
I think the easiest way to handle that option would be to just give her an out? Tell her she can keep the shades of teammates and family, if she has any?
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Okay, thought experiment time.
What do we think would happen if we told her that she gets to ke-
I'm not... sure, though, because of Oriko's warning - would she also respond violently if she learned that we knew about her sister? Is there a way we can give her not just an out but also plausible deniability? "Family and friends" might be a bit too on-the-nose; maybe offer to give her exactly one freebie or something similar?
edit: Or, actually - offer to let her keep shades that she was trying to save? There aren't many ways you get a power like hers.
What do we think would happen if we told her that she gets to ke-
Lol, ninja'd. Yeah, that's possibly something to try.
I'm not... sure, though, because of Oriko's warning - would she also respond violently if she learned that we knew about her sister? Is there a way we can give her not just an out but also plausible deniability? "Family and friends" might be a bit too on-the-nose; maybe offer to give her exactly one freebie or something similar?
edit: Or, actually - offer to let her keep shades that she was trying to save? There aren't many ways you get a power like hers.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hmm. Yeah. Keep it generic and based on a reasonable inference from what her power is.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
I wonder if Rionna understands that she has is already being controlled by other people? If we showed her how that works, what would her reaction be?
Rionna is probably wrong about a lot of things, from her secret project to her political policy as ruler of Edinburgh. I bet she has major enemies thanks to her soul acquisition campaign. To some, it might seem like a dirty but required service. To others, she might be a barbarian invader. Does she even have much future left at this pace? I would wager that it is only a matter of time for her comeuppance at the hands of a large power that might conflict with her. Since whatever time she began acting as Vlad the Impaler to the Magical Girl culture, her life is on a timer running down. Warlord culture is tough like this. Does she understand?
Not threats, exactly. I am opening the possibility to try to use her own fears against her. First, offer her a cleanse, because we will surely be out the door with Mami if we go this route. Then, without understanding "what is in the box," point out the logical fallacy she has been shoving in our face - Rionna wants to do this thing, but... Rionna cannot in years of effort find a way to do this thing. She has already passed her Walpurgisnacht point. She has failed, and is just going through the motions.
We should put her to sleep with those thoughts if we want to be hard. It would create some damage.
OTOH, I think we could also try to be a better person than her one more time, and then let her sleep. She is finding a true reading of Sabrina as a person to be ... disturbing. Because she is expecting us to be more like her, and we aren't.
Hmmm... "I am my monster's keeper" sort of thing? Not unprecedented.
Reasonable. We should swap some info about Kyuubey?
That is well covered already? She asked to have our soul, no explanation.
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Let me quote myself:
Additionally, apropos the "trying the wrong approach" comment - that was in reference to Briefvoice and point-and-click games. You can certainly try to dig deeper into Rionna's motives. She's a stubborn, abrasive girl, but you can dig away. Attacking, offers, counter-offers, all viable approaches.
But once more: she has done terrible things. She hasn't displayed remorse about it.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
She came here expecting to fight a griefbender. I'm sure she made preparations.
From Rionna's perspective. We're trying to get her to agree, and she's griped at us at least once an update for judging her. Whether or not we're justified in doing so matters less in what we say than whether or not it'll alienate her.
Maybe not quite that on the nose, but something along the lines of, "If there are ones with good reasons to stay shades, we can work something out"?
This also goes back to the question of what it is she had that she doesn't want to lose? It seems doubtful that it's just power and territory. Could be security. Could be something more personal.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
In any case, if Rionna's sister is a shade, then that adds a lot of weight to her apparently off the cuff dismissal of their awareness, given all the effort she'd likely have put into trying to "wake her sister up".
- Location
- California
Exactly one sounds kinda specific as well, perhaps we shouldn't press this until we have an actual alternative to her shades?
I mean, It's clear they're guarding at the very least Edinburgh, so maybe we should try to think of ideas?
Yeah, for a regular greifbender.
We're not a regular greifbender.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
What if other shades provide crucial functions that she's gotten used to? A clear seed might remove the need for some types of shades, but that still requires trusting us to an extent, other shades might provide her core defensive or offensive or anti-witch abilities, ones she'd be unwilling to give up?
Anyways, this kind of request seems abusable. She could easily lie about this sort of information to keep whoever she wants, within limits. Unless that's the point? At least then we'd have established limits that'd be difficult to overturn.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
[] Okay, then, you're going to take a stab in the dark here.
[] You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to.
[] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[] But. But. If she swears that she needs to keep some shade for some reason other than "safety" or "science", you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to the network of researchers you're building who can deal with exotic problems.
edit:
[] You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to.
[] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[] But. But. If she swears that she needs to keep some shade for some reason other than "safety" or "science", you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to the network of researchers you're building who can deal with exotic problems.
edit:
It is a bit... trusting, might be the right word? It's very much a "if you take advantage of this then so help me madokami they will speak of my wrath for centuries" situation.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Well, at least we'd be negotiating and making progress instead of this....
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Other people with grief powers can't make things out of them, because they can't keep grief outside of a soul gem/grief seed. She has clearly never encountered something that would cut her off from her shades before. You'll need to find another excuse to let her go.
- Location
- California
The Shades are guarding Edinburgh, if they disappear the city won't be guarded and we don't what will happen if it isn't, if they don't dissapear then that means we'll have to try saving them without the soulguca that made them, and if they witch... well that should be obvious.
in another words, Rionna could be, intentionally or not, keeping the city hostage and we don't know either way.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Rionna so far has been very blunt and honest with us, even when doing so is to her own detriment. She could have lied at any point up until now, and chose not to.
I... don't think her trying to do some bullshit about how she "was trying to save" someone she wasn't is likely - if nothing else then because it'd become pretty obvious what was up if we ever did manage de-wraithing.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
If you want to get people to agree with you about something, you might want to refrain from dismissing their reasoning as an "excuse."
And I named four reasons why doing it here and now is not the most practical. You've only addressed one, and that with a lot of assumptions.
And that was one of them. We have no idea what the Edinburgh situation is, and whether it will need immediate intervention if Rionna suddenly dies.
I'm going to bed. I have a busy day tomorrow, and frankly, this thread ruins my sleep.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
The issue I bring up with this stems from my perception.
Rionna cannot trust. She might not lie out of habit, but she will not want to trust us right now. She slightly trusts her contact in Tokyo, and might be regretting that right at this moment. Can you make this work without her having to extend any trust?