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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Firnagzen said:
She cocks her head, staring at you. Almost staring through you. "Are ye not... no. You don't want to fight me, but you does be wanting me to stop."

"I... yeah," you say, shrugging. "I don't like what you're doing."

She reaches for her flask again, half-uncapping it before apparently remembering that it's empty and setting it down.

"And you're gonna keep me here, keep me talking, until I spill my guts?" she muses. "Probably smart of you."

She looks thoughtfully at you.

"No," she says. "I'm not giving up what I have."
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Weeell

If there was any doubt, here is some pretty conclusive evidence. Rionna can read our Soul, well enough to guess at our plans and motivations.

Firnagzen said:
"I mean, if those are your goals, then frankly, you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to work alone," you say, folding your arms. "I mean, you said it yourself - everyone's tried it. More specifically, I am trying it, both of them. They're both high on my priority list."

"And that'd be bleeding fantastic, once that were what I was doing," Rionna snorts, and looks away. "I've tried those things, so I have, and I want those things."
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And this. I can't understand Rionna's answer, as in, literally can't. English isn't my native language, so with me being a half-civilized heathen, lol, "once that were what I was doing" doesn't parse for me at all. ( I'm sure this sentence is grammatically incorrect, but that rather demonstrates my point, doesn't it? )

But I think it's very important to understand what she's saying here, so if anyone could enlighten me, I would be very grateful.
 
Raiseth said:
Weeell

If there was any doubt, here is some pretty conclusive evidence. Rionna can read our Soul, well enough to guess at our plans and motivations.



And this. I can't understand Rionna's answer, as in, literally can't. English isn't my native language, so with me being a half-civilized heathen, lol, "once that were what I was doing" doesn't parse for me at all. ( I'm sure this sentence is grammatically incorrect, but that rather demonstrates my point, doesn't it? )

But I think it's very important to understand what she's saying here, so if anyone could enlighten me, I would be very grateful.
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She's saying she's tried and given up.
 
Raiseth said:
But I think it's very important to understand what she's saying here, so if anyone could enlighten me, I would be very grateful.
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Sounds like her ethical based efforts with her experiments ended in failure so she might have resort to unethical processes just to get progress.
An advanced version of Dark canon Niko.

Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. I like the general approach a lot, but I think this needs to be tweaked a touch to segue a bit better from how the last update ended.
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Perhaps it would be better to ask what steps we can take to get her trust as long it does not cross Sabrina's lines in the conversation somewhere.

I mean she knows our type, aware of the lines they don't generally cross and since Rionna is an honest type apart from avoiding personal answers she would give us something that does not cross those lines, fulfilling a task for her might give us leeway and reset the conversation with more trust behind it.

Rionna case is for the long haul and I really don't want to give up quite a guest all the way from Britain just because she's hard to work with.
 
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Can't say I'm very optimistic about getting her to agree to any kind of concession, at this point. So then, what are our next steps?

I figure that since we're pretty much committed to gemming her if negotiations fail, why not actually check up on Edinburgh after we're done talking? What @Kaizuki proposed as a crack idea originally, but instead of sending Homura on a long journey alone, we talk to our friends, prepare, and then fly to the UK in timestop, see what we can find out at ground zero. Maybe we'll gain some insight that will help us get through to Rionna if all goes well, and even in the worst case scenario of us getting detected somehow, we'd still have been planning on fighting her, so no great loss there.
 
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Madou Sutegobana said:
Well, I could tell Diplomacy isn't going to work, ever since the chapter where "reasonable, highly spoken of, compared to Mami, Rionna" was replaced with "confrontational, does horrific stuff in the name of 'justice', and maybe not always 'justice', Rionna", but was willing to let players at least try.

But with you sounding off on the moral excusability of Rionna's actions, there doesn't appear to be any real options for the quest.

So how did the quest end up in this pickle? I blame bad decisions in storytelling based on a bias for preferential treatment given to certain long term posters and use of the narrative to flip the context of debates, so that the edgelords with murderboners will be less incensed and the posters they were arguing with will be provoked into getting more heated in their debates.

And frankly, the quality of the Quest has plummeted during this dumpsterfire!

Just for the record, I am not one who normally tells someone what they should and should not write. Writers should write for themselves, not what others think would make for a good story - even if it's a participitatory medium such as a thread.

And you are not the only writer, that I have noticed, to have occasionally dipped into this kind of behavior, unconsciously or deliberate.

However, you have repeatedly engaged in this behavior throughout the thread, and you are being rather blatent about it in the current arguement.

To the point that I, who am philosophically opposed to Rewrites or Reboots of any kind, would recommend you Reboot the Quest, fresh from any arguments, and refrain from adapting the narrative in order to rephrase debates.

Edit: I forgot to explain why I recommend a Reboot.

Your last chapter wasn't any good. It was vaguely the same as the previous two or three chapters and I could hear the train whistle for the QM Railroad. And yet posters are so invested in your Quest, that several have probably automatically liked it even though they did not actually enjoy it.
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I mean, you're right. I'm being super heavy-handed in some aspects, because I don't particularly care for the flamewars and argument. So I'm clarifying things as much as possible. Also, when was Rionna ever said to be reasonable? Known to hold a city, like Mami, yes. Polite, well-spoken, not likely to attack without cause, etc. Except, well, here's Sabrina trying to invalidate and judge her actions.

*shrug*

I'll keep an eye on the quality of my updates, granted. It doesn't help that I've had a busy week and really wanted to get this out.
 
Raiseth said:
And this. I can't understand Rionna's answer, as in, literally can't. English isn't my native language, so with me being a half-civilized heathen, lol, "once that were what I was doing" doesn't parse for me at all. ( I'm sure this sentence is grammatically incorrect, but that rather demonstrates my point, doesn't it? )
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"If that was what I were doing".
She isn't doing those things.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Mmm. Gemming versus killing aside, it's not a good approach to give up on people because they're difficult to talk to. Talking to Sasa is going to make me want to pull my own teeth out, but that doesn't mean that Sabrina doesn't need to follow up on that first meeting.

Advocate for giving up on Rionna because her actions are reprehensible, advocate for it because of her lack of remorse. Don't advocate for it because she doesn't "appreciate and respect" us.
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It's more on the line of the quest(read: game) stopping being fun. But there are several other incoming challenges that are way more fun, like planning what to do with Kyouko's feelings of indebtment, how to break witchbombing to Sayaka (because everything points to her eventually accepting) or trying to make Mami not as dependant us. But this? About a month ans veral updates of what amounts of nothing tangible*? This is boring and frustrating and just want to get over it.

* sure, there have been some conclusions and there are some correct ones apparently but Riona still hasn't agreed to anything, nor she's said what else she could sette for (other than "gimme your soul")
 
Firnagzen said:
I mean, you're right. I'm being super heavy-handed in some aspects, because I don't particularly care for the flamewars and argument. So I'm clarifying things as much as possible. Also, when was Rionna ever said to be reasonable? Known to hold a city, like Mami, yes. Polite, well-spoken, not likely to attack without cause, etc. Except, well, here's Sabrina trying to invalidate and judge her actions.
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That wouldn't necessarily stop flame wars. As in, evidently, unambiguously telling players that yes, this girl is bad and did bad things will not, in fact, change their opinion on the subject of how to handle Riona. Or even how to treat Riona and her actions.

Didn't change mine, ever since that post that I made about not judging her.

That's more the result of my philosophical viewpoint than anything, but anyway.

About Gemming. I'm starting to get interested in that course of action, so could any of it's supporters outline how they would hypothetically go around it and deal with fallout? I just want to be sure that if I voted for it, it would be a fairly planned out movement, and not "fuck it, I'm tired of this bitch, so I'm gonna Gem her and deal with everything later".
 
Filraen said:
It's more on the line of the quest(read: game) stopping being fun. But there are several other incoming challenges that are way more fun, like planning what to do with Kyouko's feelings of indebtment, how to break witchbombing to Sayaka (because everything points to her eventually accepting) or trying to make Mami not as dependant us. But this? About a month ans veral updates of what amounts of nothing tangible*? This is boring and frustrating and just want to get over it.

* sure, there have been some conclusions and there are some correct ones apparently but Riona still hasn't agreed to anything, nor she's said what else she could sette for (other than "gimme your soul")
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Sabrina doing something just because the alternative was boring doesn't speak well of her character, you realize? Again, judge Rionna all you like - she's given us more then enough ammunition to decide to take her down. But doing it because you're bored isn't a compelling argument.
 
Raiseth said:
About Gemming. I'm starting to get interested in that course of action, so could any of it's supporters outline how they would hypothetically go around it and deal with fallout? I just want to be sure that if I voted for it, it would be a fairly planned out movement, and not "fuck it, I'm tired of this bitch, so I'm gonna Gem her and deal with everything later".
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Rionna likely has faster reaction times then Sabrina, so doing it while she's in the bubble is questionable.

The ideal approach would be to enter timestop - either by keeping Rionna distracted and talking in the bubble while Mami calls in Homu if we have to, but my preferential choice would be to "end the discussion" and get further from her first.

At that point, we discuss the situation with Sayaka, Homura, and Mami. Once everyone knows the situation, we go talk to Kirika and ask her for an antimagic enchantment. Then we griefhax up some soul perception glasses so we don't stumble into any wraiths surrounding Rionna, and gem her with extreme prejudice, while Sayaka and/or Kirika pulse antimagic.

We surround Rionna's gem in antimagic, and stick her body in Homura's shield. Potentially, Sayaka copies Rionna's power at this point, if we can do it safely and she's okay with it. Then we immediately head to Edinburgh while time is still stopped, and try to figure out what the hells going on and try to salvage what we can - Rionna's sister is probably an innocent in all this, for example.
 
Filraen said:
several other incoming challenges that are way more fun, like planning what to do with Kyouko's feelings of indebtment, how to break witchbombing to Sayaka (because everything points to her eventually accepting) or trying to make Mami not as dependant us.
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Really? I find it bit boring since the cast is really familiar with their mindset plus we been working on them like a long chain of interaction. I find anything with oc characters and their conflict to be quite refreshing and Kazumi's group.

Been thinking about the Shades I wonder if we should have ask Nadia if Rionna had a team and that upon on their untimely death she turn them into shades as a coping mechanism and that their Shade actions or panicking is an cause for muggle casualties. Their actions would allow an degree of separation in her mind.
She could view her teammate Shades as companions which might be a reason not to give them up as a result of trauma and adding sister to the mess.

All her efforts up to now is to restore their bodies which more magic is needed hence the city's security measures.
Mentioning Juubey might trigger her interest since its related to magical cloning.
She can't really survive alone in a major city like Edinburgh with those powers even with her sister's help its a huge ask so had to have a team.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Sabrina doing something just because the alternative was boring doesn't speak well of her character, you realize?
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The argument has never been about Sabrina, wy are you bringing her to this? I'm taling about me as a player. What would that mean for Sabrina's character? *shrug*

Note, however, that just because the game is boring now doesn't mean killing Riona is in-character for Sabrina, that's why I haven't voted... and before you bring my earlier [Χ] Gem/Kill/Throw her into the freezer. post, I'll point that the Χ (chi) I used isn't X so the post won't be counted as a vote.
 
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Filraen said:
The argument has never been about Sabrina, wy are you bringing her to this? I'm taling about me as a player. What would that mean for Sabrina's character? *shrug*
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Sabrina is the thread. Just look at how the in-thread reaction shaped Sabrina's thoughts over the past few updates. So if a number of people vote for, or call for Sabrina to do something because they're bored...
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Sabrina is the thread. Just look at how the in-thread reaction shaped Sabrina's thoughts over the past few updates. So if a number of people vote for, or call for Sabrina to do something because they're bored...
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So I'm not even allowed to say my opinon when negative/vent my frustration at the current developments of the quest inside the quest thread itself (so it isn't offtopic), when I'm not personally attacking anyone, not even voting?

Jrin said:
Really? I find it bit boring since the cast is really familiar with their mindset plus we been working on them like a long chain of interaction. I find anything with oc characters and their conflict to be quite refreshing and Kazumi's group.
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If you like that instead, more power for you.

(I didn't mention Kazumi because... what social challenges incoming we'll have from them?)
 
Filraen said:
So I'm not even allowed to say my opinon when negative/vent my frustration at the current developments of the quest inside the quest thread itself (so it isn't offtopic), when I'm not personally attacking anyone, not even voting?
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It's possible to vent and complain without calling for Sabrina to act on those feelings, be it in the form of real or "fake" votes.
 
I know some of these points have been brought up by now, but I'm gonna post my thoughts:

First, as an aside, Firn has repeated that Riona doesn't feel remorse for her actions. Then, while you could read this as 'no redemption, prepare plans to take her out and save Edinburgh', you can also read it as 'make her feel remorse'.

Of course, we could also just be OK working with Riona as is, as long as she abides by our demands to stop killing people, and over time, to release her shades.

But getting her to regret her actions would be the path to the golden ending, in this case.



On the update itself, Riona's accent is slipping, she's agitated, nervous, maybe because we're simply pressing her - and yet we're not picking a fight, she herself calls it smart to keep insisting until she talks.

It's possible the remarks about de-Witching, infinite cleansing, and her working alone might be part of the reason why she's agitated, but I'm leaning on the fact we're just insisting, and insisting, and not causing a fight. This is not what Riona's good at handling.




Another point, we know Riona's taking people's actual Souls. We've been incentivized to use all knowledge we have, including OOC knowledge.



With these thoughts in mind, and others I forget right now, I'm going back to an older plan. First I need to ask, though:

@Firnagzen, once you become less busy, would it be possible to have a 'longer' (IC) update? Not necessarily longer in words, OOC, but rather, have more time pass IC.

Instead of voting on actions and elaborating point by point, instead giving Sabrina directions to work with? I think we could benefit from some Brinapilot.






[] Settle in, be (more) patient (than Riona). Prepare for a long, long talk. Also for long silences.

[] Approach the conversation looking to outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[] Order and implementation of voting lines in accordance to new developments.

[] Offer refreshements (drinks, snacks; don't leave the bubble yourselves).

[] Press points when opportune:
-[] Your need to help people. To give people like her and her victims a chance to do better.
-[] She won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[] If it matters so much, she'll need to learn to make compromises.
-[] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing in inhumane.
--[] If there are shades who gave their Souls voluntarily, that's their decision.
--[] If Riona wants to revive them, that aligns with your goals.
--[] If she wants them for protection, offer alternatives.

[] Talk about other things when needed.
-[] Anything she knows about Walpurgisnacht?
-[] How's the Lichbomb seen outside of Japan?

[] Take advantage of the opportunity to consult a Soul 'expert'.
-[] What does your Soul look like? (And a normal soul, for comparison?)
-[] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[] Talk about de-Witching. Let Riona examine Aurora.


cmwatford said:
So, is no one going to mention how Mami just trapped the room in prep for combat?
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Did you expect anything else? ;)
 
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Redshirt Army said:
It's possible to vent and complain without calling for Sabrina to act on those feelings, be it in the form of real or "fake" votes.
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It's possible or it isn't possible to vent, make up your mind, because votes or not generalized poster reaction has influenced Sabrina (which is the point of her character). Then again this is more of a question for the QM and the conversation topic has strayed too much anyway.

cmwatford said:
So, is no one going to mention how Mami just trapped the room in prep for combat?
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The interesing part is that Riona can't feel if Mami is willing to attack her or not (similiar to how she lost connection to the Shades outside). If it comes to a fight this may be great (initiative bonus) or bad (as one of theories running around was "Riona could only Shade people attacking her" or something like that)
 
Thought: If Rionna gets confirmation the souls are aware/feels remorse it would literally be deadly for her. Barring someone like us it's unlikely she would survive the experience.

Thought2: Has Rionna ever tasted Witch Despair firsthand? I've brought it up before but it seems like something potentially worth bringing up in some form, if she's done what some people think she's done with her false griefbender powers and people want to induce remorse.
 
[Q] Be the Salaryman for our friends!
[Q] Prepare for a long night talking with Rionna.
-[Q] Her flask is dry. Get refreshments.
[Q] Immorality! Increase the alcohol content over time.
-[Q] Learn her secrets when she gets drunk.
[Q] Mami would drive us home

On the serious side, we don't need to talk about her soul slavery ATM. That is a settled fact. Do not do that at all.
Therefore, strongly recommending that this voter deletes the lines relating to them:
-[gone] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing in inhumane.
--[gone] If there are shades who gave their Souls voluntarily, that's their decision.
--[gone] If Riona wants to revive them, that aligns with your goals.
--[gone] If she wants them for protection, offer alternatives.

It would not help to repeat our obvious disagreements here. If one insisted, it is time to leave the conversation now. Rionna clearly won't budge on that yet. Leaving and working on our next steps would be far more correct.
As difficult as this is so far, conversation is not concluded yet.

The open choices seem to be
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Distract, talk about other things, like our soul or the soul-vision in some capacity.

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Present common points, try to build rapport. I would say the story of Anri is a good filler. Perhaps talk about Kyuubey.

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Serious Talk-no-Jutsu. She has a few contradictions. We can attempt that now.



Onmur, as I see it a grab-bag vote isn't the best option right now.

@Conjured Blade , the despair of witches is a fine thing to talk about IMHO.
 
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