Wait when did we suspect these? Did we, or was that a hint, or, wait, what? Well, it's news to me- was this actually a thing we suspected that I missed and should keep in mind, or is it something else entirely... ? Either way, it's something I hadn't actually considered. Cool.
... Honestly, this looks wrong. I'm looking through things but Sayaka possibly dying this week was what we knew about and we were worried about Riona killing her. Oriko I recall we thought would happen much later. Currently reviewing but we may need to tag Firnagzen about that.
 
Oriko admitted she would kill people if she thought it was necessary.

The truth is Oriko would kill Madoka, anyone, even herself and Kirika if she came to think it as necessary. THe circumstances may not exist now, but if in the future it becomes apparent that the world could be 'saved' by killing one girl, Oriko would go for it.

The way the lie detector would help would be if Oriko's morals were such that she wouldn't kill the girl even in such circumstances. But she would.
You quoted this very line less then a week ago, don't tell me you've forgotten it.
"Do not alienate Akemi Homura," Oriko says, twisting her fingers through Kirika's hair. "Virtually anyone bar you, her and Kaname Madoka are... expendable. I doubt that you like the word, but it's simple fact."
There are worlds where this isn't true, but if your notion of lying doesn't allow people to take the world they actually live in into account, then your notion of lying is wrong and we shouldn't use it.
 
... Honestly, this looks wrong. I'm looking through things but Sayaka possibly dying this week was what we knew about and we were worried about Riona killing her. Oriko I recall we thought would happen much later. Currently reviewing but we may need to tag Firnagzen about that.

Embrace the shadowruns, The Phoenixian!

Let their power flow through you, connect you with every living thing. Seize the justifications you need and discard other opinions! Shadowruns are only an outstretched hand away from you, always.

Tl;dr, Come to our side, we have cookies. :V
 
You quoted this very line less then a week ago, don't tell me you've forgotten it.

There are worlds where this isn't true, but if your notion of lying doesn't allow people to take the world they actually live in into account, then your notion of lying is wrong and we shouldn't use it.
And yet Oriko would kill Madoka if she thought it necessary.

Asking this to Oriko under a lie detector has a chance of instant added ventilation to the brain case followed by jewelry smashing.
 
Riona being hostile would suck. Her powerset could plausibly let us test certain hypotheses on the connection between Feathers and our Griefhax. I, for one, am very curious if anything interesting happens to our Soul Gem while we go into Griefhax trance, for instance. But letting her look at it while we're incapacitated requires a lot of trust.

@SaltyWaffles If you really want the lie detector, start by proposing a series of tests we could do to verify that it actually works, and we can maybe try it during out next science session. Asking that we bring something like that up in what is essentially a sensitive negotiation without knowing if it's even possible, is irresponsible and counterproductive.

There are other issues with the idea, if it works - for example, lie detection implies mind reading, and I would be very hesitant to head down that rabbit hole. But, what comes first, is a basic sanity check.
 
And yet Oriko would kill Madoka if she thought it necessary.

Asking this to Oriko under a lie detector has a chance of instant added ventilation to the brain case followed by jewelry smashing.

This whole argument is going in circles.

Frankly, I'm very skeptical we'll even succeed in creating a veritable, one-hundred percent correct lie detector, but trying sure doesn't hurt.

What will hurt is asking intentionally loaded questions we know Oriko will answer unsatisfactorily, or let Homu do so. So, really, Oriko's interrogation under such a device is twenty steps away from realization and is really unproductive to argue about.

That said, we can still argue about it, just for the heck of it.
 
And yet Oriko would kill Madoka if she thought it necessary.
She would also kill Madoka if 1=2, by the principle of explosion. So what?

If Homura was going to kill Oriko because there are counter-factual worlds where Oriko kills Madoka, she would have already done it. She knows the answer to that question, she lived through it. We only care about things that are possible here and now in the world that actually exists. By the normal, common interpretation of "lie", it is not a lie for Oriko to say that she will never kill Madoka.

The way the lie detector would help would be if Oriko's morals were such that she wouldn't kill the girl even in such circumstances. But she would.
No, it only requires Oriko to be capable of making agreements and sticking to them. The tiny fraction of futures where it might actually be be better to kill Madoka is worth very little, she is perfectly capable of trading that away for something worth more to her. That would fulfill even an unreasonably strict definition of "lie", unless you're going to say that mind control also counts.
 
You guys realize that the presence or absence of a lie detector isn't the only factor in making this work, right?

There's a difference between making Oriko answer yes or no, and giving her enough leeway to say something like "The only circumstance in which I would kill Madoka, is if it no longer matters whether or not she survives. And that can only happen if the rest of the world, including you, is already dead."

Also, obviously, we'd need to check in advance with her so she knows what truthful statements to say.
 
Sounds perfect.

Just do this and get back to the others.

:V
I can't help but feel plain "hug teh homu" is going to be counter-productive in that it might look like an attempt for preventing her from disengaging us from Time Stop. So - ask permission!

[X] Ask permission to hug teh homu

Homura's a Pokémon.


Ho-mew Ho-mew Ho-mew
Ah, wonderful. I was meaning to ask which Pokémon.
 
She would also kill Madoka if 1=2, by the principle of explosion. So what?

If Homura was going to kill Oriko because there are counter-factual worlds where Oriko kills Madoka, she would have already done it. She knows the answer to that question, she lived through it. We only care about things that are possible here and now in the world that actually exists. By the normal, common interpretation of "lie", it is not a lie for Oriko to say that she will never kill Madoka.


No, it only requires Oriko to be capable of making agreements and sticking to them. The tiny fraction of futures where it might actually be be better to kill Madoka is worth very little, she is perfectly capable of trading that away for something worth more to her. That would fulfill even an unreasonably strict definition of "lie", unless you're going to say that mind control also counts.
I'm not certain what you're saying, but it seems to me you're making a few important assumptions about how a theorical lie detector (we haven't even tried making) would work.

Unless I'm mistaken, the point of discussion is "why haven't we proposed interrogating Oriko under a lie detector?" with the assumptions that doing this would help.

Not only do we not know whether we can make a Lie Detector, how would it work if we made one, whether Homura would trust in an interrogation with Oriko, whether the way the Detector would work help or not...

Maybe Oriko would say "No, I will not kill Madoka", hold onto the specific doubt "what if it ever becomes necessary" (becomes then she would do it), the detector would detect that, and Homu would kill Oriko.

Or maybe Oriko will truthfully say, with the Detector's confirmation, that she believes she won't ever kill Madoka. This gives us no guarantee that Homura will believe her.

That's kind of the deal breaker. There's no reason for Homura to believe out hypothetical Lie Detector. Beyond the fact Oriko could truthfully claim to not want to harm Madoka and change her mind later, Homura will simply still distrust Oriko because she's Oriko. The Lie Detector won't change that.

There's many reasons why a Lie Detector might not help, and some why it might make things worse. I'd like to try making a Lie Detector (for different reasons), but it's not something we could bring up right now.


So don't ask her that. Instead, ask her if she has any intention of harming Madoka.
Oriko is completely capable of changing her mind.

She could say "no" today, and kill Madoka tomorrow.

The point of the Lie Detector is to help convince Homura, isn't it? It won't work.
 
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Reasons why Riona might not be Feathers: Oriko can see Riona in visions.

I guess Riona might have some sort of magic anti-scrying technique which she only activates when she's about to do something evil, but even in that case, Oriko should be able to view scenes where Riona is there and then suddenly there's feathers everywhere.

We really should ask Oriko about this. She's done a lot of thinking on this topic and probably can just tell us "yes, I think Riona might be Feathers too" or "no, if Riona were Feathers, I would have noticed that".
 
Madoka aside, even something like "do you regret your actions" or "would you do it again, in the same circumstances" is going to have a highly problematic answer.

Lie detector aside, isn't this a problem for us if we plan to reconcile her and Sayaka? Oriko, at minimum, needs to be able to sincerely apologize and admit she was wrong. Does she think she was wrong, in retrospect? Given the kind of person she is, this kind of admission might be a lot more difficult for her than any kind of material loss.
 
Reasons why Riona might not be Feathers: Oriko can see Riona in visions.

I guess Riona might have some sort of magic anti-scrying technique which she only activates when she's about to do something evil, but even in that case, Oriko should be able to view scenes where Riona is there and then suddenly there's feathers everywhere.

We really should ask Oriko about this. She's done a lot of thinking on this topic and probably can just tell us "yes, I think Riona might be Feathers too" or "no, if Riona were Feathers, I would have noticed that".

Another reason is that we have some evidence to believe that "Feathers" is a recent cosmological problem, by virtue of being absent in PMMM canon. If there was a Meguca that was very evil and powerful, we'd know of her.

Or something to that effect.

We do know most of the heavyweights: Akuma Homura, Madokami and Dedolere. I'm of an opinion that Feathers is somehow connected to at least one of them.
 
Honestly, I can see a use for something to confirm that Oriko has truly changed as a person... But that kinda requires that she, well, change as a person beforehand. And even then I'd rather another option to confirm that than a lie detector if it was available.
 
Meanwhile, on the Discord, I participate in an affront to all that is good and decent:

https://vebyast.github.io/pmas-discord-quotes/#/quote_id/432969113745358888

hat did i just Read is there a rating to bURn out my EYEs??/?

Or at least the cinematography you just made my imagination generate as I was reading that. Thanks. From the depths of my soul. Really. }=o)

... on another note, I guess I have my traditional Replying To Everything to get to.
 
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This is when we potential bomb homura and explain that Oriko was in the right to kill Madoka and she really needs to settle her paranoid ass down, right? So hyped. Lets do it!

:V

For real tho, this has been a pretty successful conversation so far. Good job boys and girls.
 
This is when we potential bomb homura and explain that Oriko was in the right to kill Madoka and she really needs to settle her paranoid ass down, right? So hyped. Lets do it!

:V

For real tho, this has been a pretty successful conversation so far. Good job boys and girls.

For real, do we plan to potentialbomb Homura at some point, or do we hope it just never comes up? Keep in mind this is the thing QB does on his own initiative in the most canon of canons, which makes me somewhat nervous. Especially given that Homura would be very upset with us for not telling her what we know.
 
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For real, do we plan to potentialbomb Homura at some point, or do we hope it just never comes up? Keep in mind this is the thing QB does on his own initiative in the most canon of canons, which makes me somewhat nervous. Especially given that Homura would be very upset with us for not telling her what we know.

The last time we planned to potentialbomb Homura, up to and including putting it in votes, we got a sternly worded QM warning instead of an update.

Second, because I apparently have to be explicit about it: Yes, it's a warning. Things Will Happen if Homura learns that she is causing Madoka's potential to increase. Doubly so if Kyuubey finds the right time to strike, granted. It will not bad end the Quest, not just yet, but Things Will Happen. I've scattered hints and foreshadowing as to what those things are already, and as far as I can tell, no one's guessed it yet.

If you still want to do it, I can work with that, because I have contingencies for everything. Hell, in some ways, it'd be fun for me.

But be aware that it'd be a massive shift in the status quo.

I frankly still have no fucking clue how we're supposed to "defuse" QB from telling Homura the potentialbomb like Oriko asked us to if doing it ourselves isn't the answer, but that's the current situation.
 
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Clearly, the answer is to build a cleverly consistent but unverifiable structure of half-truths and outright lies which Homura will want to believe and is mutually incompatible with the truth.

Then, we tell that to Homura. That way, if Kyubey tries to potential-bomb her, she'll just think it's lying.

Here, I'll start:

Madoka is super-awesome. Magical potential is a measure of how likely it is you'll have a major impact on the world. Madoka is so awesome that she's guaranteed to totally change everything for the better, and also want to be Homura's best friend forever, except that Walpurgisnacht is almost guaranteed to kill her. Mathematically, Madoka's magical potential = (Probability of Awesome - Probability of Death)

The reason her potential is growing with every loop is that Homura is getting closer and closer to saving her and winning every time. She just has to keep fighting. She's almost there, and the proof is how stupidly powerful Madoka is now.
 
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I frankly still have no fucking clue how we're supposed to "defuse" QB from telling Homura the potentialbomb like Oriko asked us to if doing it ourselves isn't the answer, but that's the current situation.
Well, there is the one hypothetical reality in which Homura did beat the potential bomb. It was what begat the epiphany that lead to Homura's Revenge after all.

As to other options from that vein, going back to obsolete timelines might also provide something. (not attaching more fate to Madoka if she's not connecting to a new reality)

Discussing Echoes also comes to mind but... that's a kettle of fish that needs some lengthy thinking.
 
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