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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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matthew badger said:
What @SaltyWaffles says with regards to our lack of clarity is correct. We have lied through omission here, and it pisses me off to no end. Every time we talk to them we lie by omission, blatantly avoiding the truth. I fucking hate it so much, it's like her words are closing in around me. I don't know how else to describe it.
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I guess you're in the "witchbomb everyone lul" camp, then?
Onmur said:
We did suspect. Randomly, but, well...

There's also something suspicious about Riona I noticed a while ago:

Remember how Oriko claimed she did the whole arson thing because she foretold Sayaka being killed in a mysterious fashion, with no traces of death (like she was Avada Kedabra'd)?

Well, that kind of sounds like de-Gemming, or having your soul removed.

Coincidence?:

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Yes, I'm very uncertain about the assumption that Riona will be on our side.
 
Not only will a grief Lie Detector not help in the purpose it is proposed for, but it poses further problems to keeping secrets we don't want to tell at this time, and could potentially be beat - even if it is conceptual - by a higher conceptual deceit magic.*

We couldn't even get any use out of it checking if people we meet are truthful, because the vast majority of people are suspicious of such gizmos and would refuse to let us use it on them if asked.

*Or Occlusion magic
 
Always Happening said:
This is... uncharitable, to say the least. You yourself have complained at length previously about Sabrina not parsing our intent and conveying what we wanted to convey.
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There's a rather significant difference between "Brinapilot is misreading our votes" and "We're lying to everyone all the time and you're all assholes for writing the votes that do it".

If you think that there is information we should be sharing that we are voting to not share, explain what that information is and make a case for why it should be shared. This toxic sniping does you nor anyone else any good at all.
 
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Tangentially, while we really should put any stock in the Lie Detector idea since, obviously, it would require extensive testing before we could trust it enough to use it to interrogate anyone (and we haven't even tried to make one; it's just a half-baked thought), I would like to try and make a Lie Detector but for another reason, and I have mentioned this before.

I'd like to try and make a Speckled Enchant Lie Detector, that is, a Grief Hax assisted enchantment with little enough Grief in it, it shouldn't ping as 'Witch'.

Now, there's even less chance the Lie Detector will pan out this way than if we straight up Grief Hax it, but this is the only way I could see it being useful: I'd like to have a Speckled Lie Detector if we can make one, and keep it hidden on our person. Out of sight. Secret (except from Mami, I guess).

If people know we can Detect Lies, that's gonna weight on them every time they talk with us. Even if we could make exceptions on the Detector. Where the Lie Detector would shine would be if none knew we had it.

I'd like to try this idea before Riona gets here. She's a suspicious character with an extremely dangerous sounding powerset and a metric ton of experience at life and meguca'ing, and I'd like the assist being able to Detect Lies could give us.

If it works.

And at risk of Riona detecting the detector and realizing what it is.

Not something we should put much stock on, at any rate, for the many reasons mentioned by everyone. But we could try.
 
Firnagzen said:
"Seems a bit overkill," Sayaka says. "But I guess that makes sense. Who... hey, we don't need to watch all the footage. Uh, if I can work with the animals. I get them to tell me if something interesting's happening, and then we check the footage around that time?"
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We should offer to keep Homura company when she goes through all the footage.
 
Onmur said:
[ ] Homura.
-[ ] Attempt hugs.
-[ ] Tone: Relief and concern.
-[ ] Talk about Homura.
--[ ] Ask how she's doing, try to get her to express her own feelings.
--[ ] Acknowledge her efforts, thank her and try to address her concerns.
-[ ] Resist urge to hug Mami until timestop ends.

[ ] O&K.
-[ ] You'll talk with them first about including the Kure adults, and choose their place or a random apartment based on that.
-[ ] You'll ask if Oriko has plans to do with the mansion and reimbursement, while you're at it.

[ ] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
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You forgot something:

[ ] Ask Homura if she'd like to hit another Yakuza front sometime. We need walking-around money.
 
Firnagzen said:
Homura's jaw tightens, the muscles on her neck tensing - for anyone else, that would be an outright scowl. She looks at Sayaka for a long, long moment, before returning her attention back to you. "What other ideas do you have?"

"... should I be insulted?" Sayaka mutters. "I think I should be insulted."

"Sayaka," you say reprovingly.
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This is great. I think Homura isn't fully used to a Sayaka that doesn't make a giant mess before dying yet. Maybe the trust will come with time. We should definetely thank Homura. This has to be extremely difficult for her.

I also think it's a good idea to be wary of Riona. While she certainly sounds like she could be a valuable ally, she's making this trip for a reason and is one of the first other magical girls to do so, after hearing about Sabrina's existence. I'd be extremely wary when dealing with her until we have more information on her goals.
 
blast flame said:
Because the truthful answer for Oriko when Homura asks her "is there any circumstance in which you would kill Madoka" is still "yes".
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Vebyast said:
Homura: Promise me you'll never hurt Madoka.
Oriko: I can't promise that.
Grief Verificator: *truth*
Homura: BANG

It will not fucking help. This has been explained to you repeatedly. People started ignoring you when you repeatedly failed to understand the problem with your idea and continued ignoring you when you started getting combative about it.
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Oriko was very clear that we need Madoka. There's is absolutely no indication that Oriko would hurt Madoka under any circumstance, since in this timeline it will never help.

Redshirt Army said:
demanding that people's intents and beliefs conform to our standards in sentencing comes perilously close to punishing thoughtcrime, which I'm very much against.
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There is no way that Oriko will ever be free without her being verifiably willing to not hurt Madoka.

Guilop said:
This is great. I think Homura isn't fully used to a Sayaka that doesn't make a giant mess before dying yet. Maybe the trust will come with time. We should definetely thank Homura. This has to be extremely difficult for her.

I also think it's a good idea to be wary of Riona. While she certainly sounds like she could be a valuable ally, she's making this trip for a reason and is one of the first other magical girls to do so, after hearing about Sabrina's existence. I'd be extremely wary when dealing with her until we have more information on her goals.
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It's possible that she's had to clean up the messes left by other grief controllers in the past.
 
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khfan21 said:
What do we know about the feather again? Not 'Feathers', but the feather that we have.
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According to our senses, it's completely ordinary. However, it matches Oriko's description of the feathers that would obscure her foresight, and, if I remember correctly, looks like one of the feathers from Homucifer's wings.
 
Vebyast said:
If you think that there is information we should be sharing that we are voting to not share, explain what that information is and make a case for why it should be shared.
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"I have some theories about what Feathers might be, but if I'm right it's not safe to speculate even in here"? But now we can't say anything like that, because Sabrina just said that her metaknowledge doesn't include Feathers.
 
Script Mak3r said:
According to our senses, it's completely ordinary. However, it matches Oriko's description of the feathers that would obscure her foresight, and, if I remember correctly, looks like one of the feathers from Homucifer's wings.
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We also got some weird invisitext off of them, but that's not something we can show Homura and Sayaka.
Vebyast said:
Unless we slap a grief verificator on her and force her to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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I think you're trying to imply something, but I don't know what. It would help if you wrote whatever your argument was out explicitly instead of just hinting.
 
Torgamous said:
"I have some theories about what Feathers might be, but if I'm right it's not safe to speculate even in here"? But now we can't say anything like that, because Sabrina just said that her metaknowledge doesn't include Feathers.
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But we can't have even said that, because it'd clue Feathers in that we know it's not safe to talk in here.
Skelm said:
I think you're trying to imply something, but I don't know what. It would help if you wrote whatever your argument was out explicitly instead of just hinting.
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The entire Grief Verificator plan is founded on denying Oriko the ability to shade the truth or carefully omit things. This invalidates the argument that Oriko would know to avoid saying things like "I can't promise to not hurt Madoka".
 
Vebyast said:
The entire Grief Verificator plan is founded on denying Oriko the ability to shade the truth or carefully omit things. This invalidates the argument that Oriko would know to avoid saying things like "I can't promise to not hurt Madoka".
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Firstly, what's been proposed is a lie detector, not a compulsion to make the worst possible case for herself. Secondly, it's actually true that Oriko won't hurt Madoka because, if nothing else, we (apparently) need Madoka to beat Feathers. Finally, even if there were some edge case that would currently lead Oriko to kill Madoka, she can just decide not to and make it true that she won't hurt Madoka.
 
Skelm said:
Firstly, what's been proposed is a lie detector, not a compulsion to make the worst possible case for herself. Secondly, it's actually true that Oriko won't hurt Madoka because, if nothing else, we (apparently) need Madoka to beat Feathers. Finally, even if there were some edge case that would currently lead Oriko to kill Madoka, she can just decide not to and make it true that she won't hurt Madoka.
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Oriko admitted she would kill people if she thought it was necessary.

The truth is Oriko would kill Madoka, anyone, even herself and Kirika if she came to think it as necessary. THe circumstances may not exist now, but if in the future it becomes apparent that the world could be 'saved' by killing one girl, Oriko would go for it.

The way the lie detector would help would be if Oriko's morals were such that she wouldn't kill the girl even in such circumstances. But she would.
 
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