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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
There's three votes directly for you (and four for Mura->Ziztah); maybe tag all Ziztah's voters and see if they'll vote for you. If enough people do, you can change your vote without just splitting the bandwagon.
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That's probably the best thing to do voting-wise, but mass-tags like that can get ugly fast. Also, as a compromise vote, we'd probably want/expect some support from Higure's current supporters that wouldn't be captured by this course of action?
 
[Q] Grief Make: Worm Web Novel (Book form).
-[Q] Make Oriko read Worm.
--[Q] Point at Contessa.
---[Q] "See that? That dumb precog with the blind spots? That's you. But your power's not near as good. Contessa's dumb. Discount Contessa is dumber. Don't be Discount Contessa."
 
Onmur said:
[Q] Grief Make: Worm Web Novel (Book form).
-[Q] Make Oriko read Worm.
--[Q] Point at Contessa.
---[Q] "See that? That dumb precog with the blind spots? That's you. But your power's not near as good. Contessa's dumb. Discount Contessa is dumber. Don't be Discount Contessa."
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There's a side benefit to all of this: By the time Oriko is done reading Worm, Walpurgisnacht will have come and gone.
Edit: But I mean really Wildbow is crazy. And awesome. Crazy awesome.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Honestly, at this point I am at a loss as to what does Oriko want, what do Sabrina and Kirika think about it, what are the votes trying to do and so on.
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Oriko wants to know that the world is better off for her having existed. She thinks that her existence is something wrong with the world. She feels betrayed by having trusted her father and wants to make up for that.

What I want to do is show her that we understand and empathise with her feelings, but that she is valuable (because she wants to feel valued) and to tell her that the world is better off with her alive. That is what she needs. (And yes, to show her that she can live despite what her precog says)
 
Honestly, none of the votes are covering all the potential issues. Kaizuki's and DrZiztah's don't poke holes in any of the excuses that Oriko's hiding behind, so she'll continue to hide behind them. Higure's pokes holes in the "my precog said so" thing but not "my death will benefit the world" and has an inspirational speech straight out of shounen anime that isn't at all relevant to the matter at hand.

Honestly, what I'd like to see in a vote is something like this:

[ ] Remain calm, rational and even-toned.
[ ] Your right? You make it sound like you want to die.
[ ] If she puts forth an excuse of any sort for why she has to die other than that she wants to, point out all the ways it's obviously not true until she's forced to admit it. Repeat for any other excuses that she might put forward.
-[ ] If Oriko tries to claim that it's for the good of the world, ask her to explain precisely how her death at this point would benefit anyone.
--[ ] Point out the logical flaws in her explanation, which doubtless will be numerous.
--[ ] Remind her that because she didn't die like she originally planned, she's been able to help us avert at least three catastrophes and saved the lives of hundreds of people, including several magical girls.
--[ ] Remind her that when she saved Sayaka's life a few days ago, she might very well have saved the world. Sayaka's death can potentially trigger a chain of events that will lead to the end of all human life.
--[ ] Oriko can benefit the world far more by living and helping people than by dying. In fact, she already has.
-[ ] If Oriko tries to claim that her death is inevitable because she foresaw it, remind her that her visions are preventable.
--[ ] We've prevented her visions from coming true repeatedly in the past couple weeks. They have never been inevitable. Having them would be pointless if they were.
--[ ] Not to mention that she can't really predict Sabrina at all. We've already saved her from a predicted death once. Why not again?
--[ ] She never answered our question from before. Did she ever consider that she could destroy Sayaka's apartment when it was empty, and using a more controlled method, and it would have accomplished the same goals by hurting less people? If not, then why didn't her oh-so-flawless visions show her that option? Could it be that they're not showing her the best path, but the most self-destructive?
--[ ] Oriko was depressed when she made her wish and she's depressed now. Her depression is subconsciously guiding her visions to only show her futures where she dies. Not because those are the only futures possible, but because those are the only ones that she wants to see.
-[ ] If Oriko puts forth some other excuse, point out any obvious logical flaws or counterarguments that we've already covered in the thread. If it's something completely unprecedented that we have no response for, then break for voting.
[ ] Continue refusing to accept excuses, evasions or changes of topic until Oriko is forced to face the fact that the only reason that she thinks she has to die is because she wants to die.

At that point, we'll want to end the update and prepare a new vote to address the issue of her depression.
 
The Narrator said:
Honestly, none of the votes are covering all the potential issues. Kaizuki's and DrZiztah's don't poke holes in any of the excuses that Oriko's hiding behind, so she'll continue to hide behind them. Higure's pokes holes in the "my precog said so" thing but not "my death will benefit the world" and has an inspirational speech straight out of shounen anime that isn't at all relevant to the matter at hand.

Honestly, what I'd like to see in a vote is something like this:

[ ] Remain calm, rational and even-toned.
[ ] Your right? You make it sound like you want to die.
[ ] If she puts forth an excuse of any sort for why she has to die other than that she wants to, point out all the ways it's obviously not true until she's forced to admit it. Repeat for any other excuses that she might put forward.
-[ ] If Oriko tries to claim that it's for the good of the world, ask her to explain precisely how her death at this point would benefit anyone.
--[ ] Point out the logical flaws in her explanation, which doubtless will be numerous.
--[ ] Remind her that because she didn't die like she originally planned, she's been able to help us avert at least three catastrophes and saved the lives of hundreds of people, including several magical girls.
--[ ] Remind her that when she saved Sayaka's life a few days ago, she might very well have saved the world. Sayaka's death can potentially trigger a chain of events that will lead to the end of all human life.
--[ ] Oriko can benefit the world far more by living and helping people than by dying. In fact, she already has.
-[ ] If Oriko tries to claim that her death is inevitable because she foresaw it, remind her that her visions are preventable.
--[ ] We've prevented her visions from coming true repeatedly in the past couple weeks. They have never been inevitable. Having them would be pointless if they were.
--[ ] Not to mention that she can't really predict Sabrina at all. We've already saved her from a predicted death once. Why not again?
--[ ] She never answered our question from before. Did she ever consider that she could destroy Sayaka's apartment when it was empty, and using a more controlled method, and it would have accomplished the same goals by hurting less people? If not, then why didn't her oh-so-flawless visions show her that option? Could it be that they're not showing her the best path, but the most self-destructive?
--[ ] Oriko was depressed when she made her wish and she's depressed now. Her depression is subconsciously guiding her visions to only show her futures where she dies. Not because those are the only futures possible, but because those are the only ones that she wants to see.
-[ ] If Oriko puts forth some other excuse, point out any obvious logical flaws or counterarguments that we've already covered in the thread. If it's something completely unprecedented that we have no response for, then break for voting.
[ ] Continue refusing to accept excuses, evasions or changes of topic until Oriko is forced to face the fact that the only reason that she thinks she has to die is because she wants to die.

At that point, we'll want to end the update and prepare a new vote to address the issue of her depression.
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X that and I'll vote for it.
 
Sereg said:
X that and I'll vote for it.
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Done.

[x] Remain calm, rational and even-toned.
[x] Your right? You make it sound like you want to die.
[x] If she puts forth an excuse of any sort for why she has to die other than that she wants to, point out all the ways it's obviously not true until she's forced to admit it. Repeat for any other excuses that she might put forward.
-[x] If Oriko tries to claim that it's for the good of the world, ask her to explain precisely how her death at this point would benefit anyone.
--[x] Point out the logical flaws in her explanation, which doubtless will be numerous.
--[x] Remind her that because she didn't die like she originally planned, she's been able to help us avert at least three catastrophes and saved the lives of hundreds of people, including several magical girls.
--[x] Remind her that when she saved Sayaka's life a few days ago, she might very well have saved the world. Sayaka's death can potentially trigger a chain of events that will lead to the end of all human life.
--[x] Oriko can benefit the world far more by living and helping people than by dying. In fact, she already has.
-[x] If Oriko tries to claim that her death is inevitable because she foresaw it, remind her that her visions are preventable.
--[x] We've prevented her visions from coming true repeatedly in the past couple weeks. They have never been inevitable. Having them would be pointless if they were.
--[x] Not to mention that she can't really predict Sabrina at all. We've already saved her from a predicted death once. Why not again?
--[x] She never answered our question from before. Did she ever consider that she could destroy Sayaka's apartment when it was empty, and using a more controlled method, and it would have accomplished the same goals by hurting less people? If not, then why didn't her oh-so-flawless visions show her that option? Could it be that they're not showing her the best path, but the most self-destructive?
--[x] Oriko was depressed when she made her wish and she's depressed now. Her depression is subconsciously guiding her visions to only show her futures where she dies. Not because those are the only futures possible, but because those are the only ones that she wants to see.
-[x] If Oriko puts forth some other excuse, point out any obvious logical flaws or counterarguments that we've already covered in the thread. If it's something completely unprecedented that we have no response for, then break for voting.
[x] Continue refusing to accept excuses, evasions or changes of topic until Oriko is forced to face the fact that the only reason that she thinks she has to die is because she wants to die.


Higure said:
*sighs* ...it wasn't that Shonen...
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On a scale of zero to Gurren Laggan, it was about an Inuyasha, or maybe about 1/3 of a Naruto. I want to get it down to around a Rurouni Kenshin. :D
 
[x][The Narrator


As someone who tends to be demotivated by most motivational speeches, I get where he's coming from.
 
The way I see it, when we tell her that visions of her death are preventable, we're not asking her to do the impossible, break through all limitations, go over 9000 or spontaneously develop a new ability.

We're asking her to believe that something that we've done ourselves in the past can actually be done. To maintain some cautious optimism without ignoring reality. To move forward into the future instead of letting the past consume her, without forgetting that past or whitewashing the wrongdoing of it. To believe that there could still be a place for her in the world, that she doesn't need to go extinct just because things are changing. Not with firey speeches, but by providing demonstrable proof that it is possible.

So, yeah, upon relection, I think the Rurouni Kenshin comparison is even more apt than I realized.
 
@Kaizuki

To be honest, I'm more or less alright with the changes myself, though I don't know what others might think of it. And frankly, I don't see the issue with smaller votes if they get the points across. Length of a vote is not inherently a positive quality.
 
Vebyast said:
These two lines could probably be a vote all by themselves.
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It is possible that she'll respond to that by admitting that she does want to die, in which case we'd skip past all the if/then statements to the end of the vote. I don't think it's likely, however. She'll almost certainly try to hide behind her usual excuses.

Oriko wants to pretend that she's being cold and logical about all this: hard meguca making hard choices. I think that only by exposing the holes in that logic and proving that her decision is anything but unemotional can we get her to admit that she wants to die. Only then, I think, is there any hope of being able to help her... of getting her to admit that she needs help.
 
The Narrator said:
It is possible that she'll respond to that by admitting that she does want to die, in which case we'd skip past all the if/then statements to the end of the vote. I don't think it's likely, however. She'll almost certainly try to hide behind her usual excuses.

Oriko wants to pretend that she's being cold and logical about all this: hard meguca making hard choices. I think that only by exposing the holes in that logic and proving that her decision is anything but unemotional can we get her to admit that she wants to die. Only then, I think, is there any hope of being able to help her... of getting her to admit that she needs help.
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Right now, we're splitting our optimization power over four or five different responses that Oriko could make. I don't think that we have enough to spare some for conditionals. Particularly because we don't know what she's thinking and having her response will allow us to formulate a more appropriate argument.

[x] Remain calm, rational and even-toned. De-escalate.
[x] Your right? You make it sound like you want to die.
 
Vebyast said:
Right now, we're splitting our optimization power over four or five different responses that Oriko could make. I don't think that we have enough to spare some for conditionals. Particularly because we don't know what she's thinking and having her response will allow us to formulate a more appropriate argument.
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I'm afraid that I can't follow your thinking here. You seem to be implying that being prepared for multiple possibilities somehow reduces our ability to prepare for any individual one. I see no evidence of that.

Oriko's responses on this subject tend to be fairly predictable. She almost always falls back to the same two excuses: "my death benefits the world" and "my precog says I must die". (If anyone can recall a time when she's used any other excuse for her deathwish, please point me to it.) I prepared responses for those two excuses because odds are overwhelming that she's going to give us one or both of them.

If by some miracle she doesn't, either by pulling out a new excuse or by admitting that she's suicidal, or by putting a lampshade on her head and dancing the macarena or whatever, then my vote and yours both have the same response: break for another vote.

But if she does give us one of her habitual responses, then my vote has an answer for it so that we don't have to stop the update two paragraphs in to vote again.
 
Firnagzen said:
Maybe you win this one. Then what, Oriko? You said it yourself - you're not long for this world. You die. Kirika dies, or better yet. She Witches out! The system remains. Kyuubey remains. Witches remain. What the hell next, Oriko?"

"I leave my legacy," she says simply. "I will leave behind me a world that is not bettered, but will be better." Her eyes go wide for a moment, and she sucks in a sharp breath.
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Remember Oriko thinks she's done enough. That she's changed enough that the world will be better thanks to her. To her 'legacy'.

Of course, Feathers totally wrecked Oriko's visions - Feathers seemed to outright alter fate as far as her precog was concerned (my words, not hers), so Oriko's excuses are really thin.

The Narrator said:
--[x] She never answered our question from before. Did she ever consider that she could destroy Sayaka's apartment when it was empty, and using a more controlled method, and it would have accomplished the same goals by hurting less people? If not, then why didn't her oh-so-flawless visions show her that option? Could it be that they're not showing her the best path, but the most self-destructive?
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We might have to prompt Oriko again to answer why the hell did she feel the need to hospitalize 27+ people -she had no fucking right, whether she thinks she 'knows the consequences of her actions' or not.

But it probably won't happen this vote, and we shouldn't ask in such a confrontational way.

-[x] If Oriko tries to claim that it's for the good of the world, ask her to explain precisely how her death at this point would benefit anyone.
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It would be a weight off Homu's shoulders. :V
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Well for me its a win win, cause worse case she kills herself thus we no longer have to waste time with her, best case we fix her up and we have intel on major disasters.
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Stardust? You are knowing we are basically giving up on two persons in case we do not convince Oriko? One of which -at least one of which -is seen as a bona fide friend of ours?
Sorry, we are not Homura.We are not at that level of 'pragmatism'.
The Narrator said:
I think something's been misunderstood.

The idea is not to break her faith in her precog as being useful. Quite the contrary, we should be emphasizing all the good she's done with it since she quit playing villain and started working with us to counter her "my dying will save the world" bullshit.

The idea is to put an end to this ridiculous notion that her visions of her death are inevitable and unpreventable when we've repeatedly been able to prevent her visions from coming true. Until we do that, she'll continue to hide behind the "I must die because I have forseen it" excuse and refuse to admit that she's suicidal, and attempts to help her will go nowhere.
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Indeed.She is deluding herself.
Self-fullfilling prophecy aaall over, but how do we convince her of that?
Damn, she wants to be right, not to be hopeful or happy.
The Narrator said:
I'm afraid that I can't follow your thinking here. You seem to be implying that being prepared for multiple possibilities somehow reduces our ability to prepare for any individual one. I see no evidence of that.

Oriko's responses on this subject tend to be fairly predictable. She almost always falls back to the same two excuses: "my death benefits the world" and "my precog says I must die". (If anyone can recall a time when she's used any other excuse for her deathwish, please point me to it.) I prepared responses for those two excuses because odds are overwhelming that she's going to give us one or both of them.

If by some miracle she doesn't, either by pulling out a new excuse or by admitting that she's suicidal, or by putting a lampshade on her head and dancing the macarena or whatever, then my vote and yours both have the same response: break for another vote.

But if she does give us one of her habitual responses, then my vote has an answer for it so that we don't have to stop the update two paragraphs in to vote again.
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So, WHY does your death benefit the world more than your life, Oriko?
Because you are such a horrible person that you blighten the life of everybody who knows you?
Then why did Kirika willingly gave herself to you body and soul?
Why do we care for you, beyond pragmatic reasons?

Because you are useless? Your intervention saved many, many lives in Sendai and can save many more to come.
And Kirika , who will be DEAD if you manage to kill yourself , can do so much, too.

You want to givee us a common foe in yourself and your GF? Lets see , we have a malicious alien hivemind, an incoming Uberwitch, a mysterious precog blocking entity.... I would say we need more allies, not you trying to play villain in hope of getting shanked for 'the greater good.'

You and Kirika becoming martyrs is DESERTING the cause of saving tne world.
 
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[Q] Actually actually ask Kirika to be Best Buddies.
-[Q] Stop Oriko from stopping Kirika from answering honestly.
--[Q] If Kirika says yes, look at Oriko meaningfully.
---[Q] She knows this means we're never gonna let her go, doesn't she?
 
Sailor Midgard said:
Stardust? You are knowing we are basically giving up on two persons in case we do not convince Oriko? One of which -at least one of which -is seen as a bona fide friend of ours?
Sorry, we are not Homura.We are not at that level of 'pragmatism'.
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Fucking everything over in the hope to save someone is most certainly just as bad as Homura is though, worse because we didn't wish to save someone in the first place, so why does everyone think we are suited for it?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Fucking everything over in the hope to save someone is most certainly just as bad as Homura is though, worse because we didn't wish to save someone in the first place, so why does everyone think we are suited for it?
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Because ruthless pragmatism is the riad to ruin.
Blind idealism is , too, but 'eh they are just a waste of time' is sounding cool and edgy... but its not helping.
At the end of this mindset there is kyuubey.
 
Sailor Midgard said:
Because ruthless pragmatism is the riad to ruin.
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Homura really takes a lot before she see's saving someone as hopeless.
landcollector said:
Though Sabrina has had a couple setbacks, there have been successes too. For example, stopping a couple dozen meguca from murdering each other over territory. Or helping out a few of Mami's former apprentices and stopping them from Witching Out.
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Sabraina is good at breaking systems, however you all seem to think that trying to treat Oriko without breaking her system (seeing the future) and getting her to realize that her system is broken will work.
as for friends with Kirika, if Orikko told her to kill us she would do so without hesitation and we all know it.
 
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