Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Illinois
Do we want to make that point? Like... I agree with you. This should be a "rage against the dying of the light, you fool!" thing. The same goes for Tetris, and for potential bomb, and basically everything else.
But I don't think Oriko is or will be in the right state to hear that. It's equal parts too much in line with earlier arguments (don't give up hope!) and too out of line with her perception.
It's phrased as an attack rather than an ecouragement, is a lot of the problem. If we do break through to her beforehand then this shouldn't be phrased as it is, like at all. If we don't break through to her on the fallibility of her precog, this line should be an attack, but using it as an attack without breaking through on the precog? She actively opposes us when we try to push hope for the future on her, historically. We'd be asked to leave.
That clause is a subvote of this one:
In other words, it's placement is such that it's supposed to be invoked only after we have broken through on the fallibility of her precog. As I read it, that clause is meant to be encouragement, something to build her back up after breaking her incorrect faith in her precog.
- Location
- Illinois
- Location
- South Africa
Telling Oriko her precog is fallable doesn't help by itself. She wants to die. That's the problem. Her believing her precog is fallable doesn't solve that problem. In fact, it can make it worse.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
After thinking it over, I believe I'm handling that particular point poorly. I think the idea that "nothing is infallible, even physics and causality" is important to convey, but I'm doing it wrong.
How does this look to you guys?
--[ ]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Point out that we (Puella Magi) are, by nature, people who do the impossible. Her visions can show her many possible scenarios...but they do not appear to show her impossible ones. Reality doesn't seem to know what to make of us (Sabrina). That is proof, without a doubt, that a miraculous outcome is still possible for her. Present examples of her visions proving themselves fallible as needed.
This is true, but it's also false. Oriko's desire to die is likely messing with her visions (although I am not completely sold on that theory), and she's definitely using the delusion that they're completely reliable to justify her suicidal actions. By clinging to the idea that she has no choice, that it's inevitable, she avoids confronting her actual reasons. Taking that excuse away means we can force her to deal with her problem, which she needs to. She can't fix a problem she won't acknowledge.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
it will destroy the whole ( I must die to make the world a better place) meaning she will at least have to either
A. Break
B. admitte to having the problem
C. lose all hope of making the world a better place
C2. which leads to B because we can prevent a witch out.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
By word of Oriko, she's looked into the future and couldn't find a single future in which she would live; always got killed by Sayaka, Homura, Sabrina, some blonde meguca with green eyes, or by (presumably) Feathers.
Take into account that her precog is harder to use the farther into the future she tries to look, and that someone who didn't really want to live would make a half hearted effort and give up and say they tried their best.
Take into account that her precog is harder to use the farther into the future she tries to look, and that someone who didn't really want to live would make a half hearted effort and give up and say they tried their best.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Yes, it's possible she gave up before she found a route where she survived. That said, consider her current situation:
She leaves: Homura kills her.
She acts sufficiently weird: Homura kills her.
We piss off Homura: Homura kills her.
Madoka is hurt through sheer coincidence: Homura kills her.
Someone fails at Social with Sayaka: Sayaka kills Oriko.
Walpurgis isn't a cakewalk: High chance that Walpurgis kills Oriko.
Feathers does whatever Feathers does: Feathers kills Oriko.
Blond girl shows up and does something: Blond girl kills Oriko.
Oriko gives up hope: Oriko kills Oriko.
Sabrina gives up on Oriko: Homura kills Oriko.
Kirika dies/Witches: Oriko kills Oriko.
Sabrina keeps her under house arrest for too long: Sabrina kills Oriko.
It's entirely possible that she genuinely couldn't find a scenario where she lived well into next month, no matter how hard she tried. Maybe she missed some particular series of events that caused that would create a decent ending, or maybe all timelines where she survives were either impossible or obfuscated by Sabrina or Feathers.
We don't know. Assuming depression's making her subconsciously edit out positive outcomes is a bit of a leap, in my opinion.
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- South Africa
D: Say that she doesn't care and wants to die anyway.
E: Admit that we're right. Thank us for clarifying what she really wants and smash her soul gem
F: Give up all hope and smash her soul gem
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
Can a magical girl create a new body if the old one has deteriorated to a skeleton? If she also didn't have to worry about grief?
Because if she can there is at least one way Oriko could potentially outlive the month.
Not that I'm suggesting doing it, just mentioning it as a counterargument to their being no possible future Oriko lives in for her to see.
Not that that's an argument posters are making, but it is an argument Oriko has made.
Because if she can there is at least one way Oriko could potentially outlive the month.
Not that I'm suggesting doing it, just mentioning it as a counterargument to their being no possible future Oriko lives in for her to see.
Not that that's an argument posters are making, but it is an argument Oriko has made.
One thing that's rather important to note is that we do not want to start by attacking Oriko's faith in her precog, the way @DrZiztah's vote does currently. Down that path lies disaster, as @Sereg and @Higure have outlined above, because once you break that all you're left with is Oriko with a deathwish.
What we want to do is start by getting Oriko to talk about how she sees the "dying" part of her whole "dying for the sake of the world" plan: does she not want to die, but sees it as an inevitable part of trying to save the world, or does she see it as a feature, and she does want to die? If it's the former, and she admits that she doesn't want to die but doesn't see a way out, then you go after her precog, showing her how fallible it is, how we've defied what she sees as fate three times so far in a week, and then build up to the fact that we're magic users and the whole nature of our existence is about defying everything, even the immutable laws of physics. That's where my little addendum to @Higure's plan comes in and we talk about how much there is to do and how much we need her help on the road ahead, far beyond the near-term scenario in which she plans on sacrificing herself.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Then she should die, forcing someone to live when they are living for dying is just wrong, forcing someone to suffer to save one's own morals is simply foolish, and Oriko is no use if she simply is aiming for her own death, meaning there is no point in keeping her around, waste of time and resources and is causing needless suffering.
- Location
- South Africa
Forcing someone to suffer when they just want to die is bad, yes. But if we can convince her not to want to die, that's better
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
She currently thinks she has to die because it will lead to make the world a better place thus you kind of have to break this idea of hers to make any progress, otherwise you are all just wasting time.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I was wondering whether we should say something about Oriko's reasons and goals again...
And randomly found the part about Oriko's Wish Vision; the first Vision, not the ones from her precog powers.
Sabrina, Homura, Madoka (the three she's claimed to be essential), Kyuubey, Kirika. (Maybe in that order).
If we take Wishes to always come true, then Oriko's purpose is in this sequence she saw, just like in the Oriko Manga her purpose was to stop Gretchen. (Notice there's no Feathers here; Feathers blocks her precog, wasn't mentioned to block her Wish Vision).
So far, we know Oriko believes Sabrina will 'end things' (one way or another); that Homura and Madoka must be there also; from KB's side, at least, that it will bomb Homura if we don't stop it; about Kirika, Oriko's predicted her very easily, so we know she's OK (if guilty) about Kirika wishing to help Oriko, and ultimately dying together.
...
So... what else do we know? When Oriko Wishes, she pretty much gives herself to her Vision. It's what gives her purpose.
We try to attack the underlying issues, but I feel there's things at surface we don't know yet. :S
Random Vote Tally:
And randomly found the part about Oriko's Wish Vision; the first Vision, not the ones from her precog powers.
Oriko Wished to know her purpose and her Wish gave her 'this' vision.
Sabrina, Homura, Madoka (the three she's claimed to be essential), Kyuubey, Kirika. (Maybe in that order).
If we take Wishes to always come true, then Oriko's purpose is in this sequence she saw, just like in the Oriko Manga her purpose was to stop Gretchen. (Notice there's no Feathers here; Feathers blocks her precog, wasn't mentioned to block her Wish Vision).
So far, we know Oriko believes Sabrina will 'end things' (one way or another); that Homura and Madoka must be there also; from KB's side, at least, that it will bomb Homura if we don't stop it; about Kirika, Oriko's predicted her very easily, so we know she's OK (if guilty) about Kirika wishing to help Oriko, and ultimately dying together.
...
So... what else do we know? When Oriko Wishes, she pretty much gives herself to her Vision. It's what gives her purpose.
We try to attack the underlying issues, but I feel there's things at surface we don't know yet. :S
Random Vote Tally:
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- Location
- South Africa
Yes. I know. That's what our vote is trying to do.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
The thing is, it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Unless Firn decides to punish us for not providing an itemized list of the ways that Oriko's precog is fallible in the vote, it should be easy to establish that her visions are preventable. We're not asking her to believe in the impossible or the miraculous. We're asking her to believe in something that we did three times last week. That's not exactly a leap of faith. More like asking someone to believe that it's possible to make a trip to the grocery store. She's only treating it as impossible because she's depressed.
Maybe if she refuses to accept that her visions are preventable in the face of all logic, then it would be time for an inspirational speech, but Oriko's not really the audience for it.
If Oriko decides to end it all by smashing her own gem, there's pretty much nothing we can do to stop her short of confiscating her gem. She could have done so at any time. But she hasn't. And she comes up with excuses for why her death is inevitable and tries to get other people to do the job for her. I think she's probably reluctant to actually go through with it, and would be all the more so if she knew it would mean also killing Kirika for good no reason. If we can make her understand that she has a problem, then maybe she'll accept help.
- Location
- Illinois
See, I'm inclined to believe that if we break down her faith in her precog and she's left with a death wish, we can deal with that. If Oriko was just suicidal we could handle that. Kirika is on point 24/7, we can offer Oriko things she wants and we can work with her to deal with her depression. At that point it's no more than a standard-ish fight against depression, with a strong support network.
Like, I realize that's a pretty brutal thing to say, but seriously, just look at how much we've been running in circles and tightroping and shit with this. Oriko Mikuni's character as-is is way too fucking hard to properly grasp. We sorta feel our way through interacting with her, hoping we're doing the right thing, historically we never have been, her condition deteriorates, and at no point do we really actually know how to help her. And she's either dying or slowly killing herself unless we can help her.
If at any point in this discussion she tries to commit suicide we need to stop her. But we can do that, because she doesn't have magic with which to break her soul gem. She's going to be hard pressed to actually commit suicide here and now in a timeframe small enough to evade our interference.
...
The moment she breaks from Oriko Mikuni to Suicidal Teenager is the moment we actually know what to do to fix her and equally the moment we can start to say things to build her back up without worrying that she'll fucking take offense to them and kick us out. Because that's the primary effective difference between Oriko Mikuni and Suicidal Teenager: Oriko Mikuni actively refuses assistance and encouragement.
...
So, the way I see it, the main thing I prefer about Higure's vote to Ziztah's is the opening, because we really need to agree with her statement that she has the right to die, both to throw her off balance and to stay as non-hostile as possible. But you point to Ziztah's leaving the vote at breaking Oriko's faith in her precog as a bad thing, but what I see is that the Ziztah vote (hopefully, unless we can't break her faith in her precog like this) ends in a controllable situation where Oriko may or may not be actively suicidal, may or may not lose hope, may or may not XYZ, and then we can act on Oriko's reaction as precisely as possible, hopefully in a manner which will, like, actually have basis as being "We know how to deal with this!"
By contrast, Oriko being as opaque as she is, choosing in this vote actions to take in the aftermath of trying to break her faith in her precog is... We can't know in advance what conditions will be like then. There are too many possibilities. Rather than try to think of all of them and write contingencies for each, I'd rather just break to voting again.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
[x] Kaizuki
I am in agreement with the cat's thought process.
I am in agreement with the cat's thought process.
Uh, huh, break her remaining motivation to actually do something, and we can pick up the pieces afterward; that's the plan? And how's Akiko doing, after we pulled exactly this on her? "Break the Cutie" is an anime trope; it's not a recipe for positive psychotherapy.
I think that you, and the rest of the people voting for @DrZiztah, are going about things backwards. You guys are voting to go after her faith in her precog first, and then trying to solve her suicidal tendencies afterwards, under the theory that it's an easier problem to solve, but feeling like you have nothing to live for is considered a major risk factor for suicidal depression. In other words, what you especially don't want to do to someone who is already suicidal is take away one of their remaining motivations to live, which is what will happen to Oriko if you go about convincing her that her precognition, the thing that, at the moment, she is leaning on as what the Incubator gave her when she asked for a reason to keep living, is a broken sham. We need to dig out and treat the suicidal thoughts first, before we go about convincing Oriko that her precognition is not infallible.
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- Location
- Illinois
Except then we immediately hit the other side of the precog spiral, eyes: ANY attempt to convince Oriko to not be suicidal slams into the mighty "My precog said I have to die, so stop trying to give me hope!"
We've tried to do what you're saying before, eyes. It gets us thrown out.
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- Voidbetweenstars
Well for me its a win win, cause worse case she kills herself thus we no longer have to waste time with her, best case we fix her up and we have intel on major disasters.