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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Vote Tally : Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 4299 | Sufficient Velocity
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[X] Calm down and deescalate in tone and body language.
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting your death-and your life-to have meaning.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
No. of Votes: 14
Higure
Aranfan
cmwatford
Demosthenes
Dragontrapper
Jrin
Kaizuki
LostDeviljho
MrLZRS
Sailor Midgard
Sereg
The Narrator
TheEyes
Vebyast

[x] Calm down a bit before continuing. Tone: Gentle, but firm. Don't raise your voice. Don't antagonize.
[x] But why does it have to be Oriko?
[x] Your powers showed you what you wanted. A way to die meaningfully. But that's not what you wished for.
[x] Politely request her to put it all out and tell you everything, no hiding, no single-line answers. If she tries to circumvent the question or leaves out details in any way, gently call her out on it, and swerve back to the topic. "It's necessary" is not an answer.
No. of Votes: 12
DrZiztah
AuraTwilight
ctulhuslp
defenestrator
Demojay
Gadjo
Guilop
Matou Sutegobana
mistfist
Muramasa
Onmur
UbeOne

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options
No. of Votes: 1
Conjured Blade

Total No. of Voters: 27
 
A lot of the problem here is the big disconnect between IC and OOC timescales. IC, we've known Oriko for a week and a half, and the current discussion has only lasted for an hour or two, but here in the thread we've been going back and forth and around and around for months. Obviously the "correct" choice here is to get more information out of Oriko, which both competing votes do, in order to give her enough rhetorical rope to hang herself with, but it takes so goddamn long to get anywhere that it's frustrating. Add to that the implication that @Firnagzen likes voters to be more pro-active, and it's not surprising that we're seeing votes that go beyond drawing more information out of Oriko.

@Higure's vote goes a little further than strictly necessary and endorses certain counterarguments that may or may not apply given the information we're trying to get from Oriko, which explains why many people aren't voting in that direction. @DrZiztah's vote does not do that, which explains why many people vote in that direction, except, in addition to dragging out the argument for more OOC weeks, also makes what I consider a huge mistake and deliberately defangs the "precog spiral" argument by couching it in terms of a disconnect between what Oriko wants and what she Wished for, which invites Oriko to simply reply that the disconnect is a feature, not a flaw.

What I really want is more along the lines of:

[] Calm down a bit before continuing. Tone: Gentle, but firm. Don't raise your voice. Don't antagonize.
[] Politely request her to put it all out and tell you everything, no hiding, no single-line answers. If she tries to circumvent the question or leaves out details in any way, gently call her out on it, and swerve back to the topic. "It's necessary" is not an answer.
[] Draw out more of Oriko's reasoning; give her enough rhetorical rope to hang herself with.
[] Then counter her arguments, using the many, many, many counterarguments the thread has come up with over the years. You know our methods, @Firnagzen, now apply them! :V
 
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I wonder if Oriko is looking for forgiveness/atonement for her father and her own actions. So less rhetoric and more hugs?
 
DB_Explorer said:
It's a mix I suppose.

Pharmaceuticals are useful in real life psychological treatment but they are also not a pancea or a one shot solution - they are one tool in a box that must be used fully. Even if we did get Oriko drugs she still needs therapy. I interpreted the comment on getting Oriko drugs as a means to narratively side step the thorny issue of having to do social - which I feel is a sell out narratively. I also viewed the comment as an implication that psychological issues can simply be fixed with drugs, which while some can, many are more complicated and that I also find deeply offensive.

On a more technical level - I doubt its brain chemistry that's Oriko's issue.... not when her soul can literally be filled with grief and turn her into a eldritch abomination. I think the issues with her *soul* might be an issue - plus the narrative conventions of the genre of course.

I also think Oriko being suicidal has more in common with historical examples of generals/admirals/etc that have committed suicide after some perceived failure. This examples, where any sort of brain chemistry issues are a minor concern as far as I can tell, are a minor example and occur under specific cultural (including Military life/honor as a sort of 'culture') circumstances. But Oriko may very well fall under those circumstances given her issues with her father and the larger magical girl framework.

And its not that I think that just because someones brain chemistry is fine and their issue all philosophical/belief/mental whatever that their psychological issues are any less serious. The brain is an immensely complex thing able to create works of art and tease apart the universe. All the chemistry we know, all the 'hardware' could be right... but shit could and does still go wrong. That person still has an issue and still needs help even if its not drugs or something else 'medical' (in the normal sense).

Edit: and of course its never the result of a careful cost/benefit analysis. It is at best the result of a hasty one with weights skewed by emotions, social and cultural factors. At worst its due to a decision based off miscommunication to an already fragile state undermined by emotions that are not even appropriate due to skewed brain chemistry.

Edit P.S. - I tend to mention cost/benefit analysis when talking about how people think but that's just how I view internally how people make decisions. Everyone has their own assigned values to things. Whats illogical to some, may be logical to others because of those values. Essentially what I mean is that everyone always *thinks* their being logical.
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Monocausal explanations for complex issues are always never fully true, just as they are seldom fully WRONG.
I posit that suicidal drepression is a function of both chemical imbalance and philosophkcal/cultural/life issues.
In cultures allowing or even idealising sucidal behavior, it happens more often.
Oriko has real personal issues .That careful medication might lessen her suicidal tendencies is also true, but she seems to nothave been depressive before her dad managed to lose face so badly.
 
[q] Seek out Kyuubey
[q] Inquire into rich history of 'bey
[q] Ask if 'bey requires money to go to college, if so donate some of the yakuza gold
 
So, the way I see it, Oriko wants to die but she can't admit that, either to herself or to us, so she's hiding behind excuses. "I must die for the good of the world." "I must die because I have foreseen it." We can disprove those excuses, and thus force her to admit that she's only letting herself die because she wants to die. Which also means that she's going to kill her girlfriend in the process. Hopefully she will then realize that she needs help.

"I must die because I have foreseen it," is pretty easy to disprove. The idea that Oriko's visions are inevitable is downright laughable when you consider how many we've kept from coming true since Oriko started working with us instead of against us, that they can't predict us at all, or that they've failed to show her less-destructive means of achieving her same goals.

"I must die for the good of the world," is a little more work to disprove, but it should be possible. The blunt fact of the matter is that Oriko has yet to provide any example of how her dying helps the world. Whereas, by staying alive rather than being killed as she expected, she has been able to help us prevent several catastrophes that would have resulted in people dying. This includes saving Sayaka, whose death could potentially start a chain of events that would lead to the end of the world.

While I think Higure's vote is the better of the two, it doesn't really address the second excuse in any depth. Maybe change this line...
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
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...to something more like this?

--[ ] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask to explain how her dying at this point accomplishes that, or anything. Counter any claims that she attempts to make in that regard by pointing out the flaws in her logic. Remind her that by not getting killed as she intended, she'd had the opportunity to help save hundreds of lives. If she had been dead, then Sayaka would have been killed by a witch a few days ago, and that could potentially trigger a chain of events that would end the world. By staying alive, Oriko saved the world, not by dying.
 
The Narrator said:
So, the way I see it, Oriko wants to die but she can't admit that, either to herself or to us, so she's hiding behind excuses. "I must die for the good of the world." "I must die because I have foreseen it." We can disprove those excuses, and thus force her to admit that she's only letting herself die because she wants to die. Which also means that she's going to kill her girlfriend in the process. Hopefully she will then realize that she needs help.

"I must die because I have foreseen it," is pretty easy to disprove. The idea that Oriko's visions are inevitable is downright laughable when you consider how many we've kept from coming true since Oriko started working with us instead of against us, that they can't predict us at all, or that they've failed to show her less-destructive means of achieving her same goals.

"I must die for the good of the world," is a little more work to disprove, but it should be possible. The blunt fact of the matter is that Oriko has yet to provide any example of how her dying helps the world. Whereas, by staying alive rather than being killed as she expected, she has been able to help us prevent several catastrophes that would have resulted in people dying. This includes saving Sayaka, whose death could potentially start a chain of events that would lead to the end of the world.

While I think Higure's vote is the better of the two, it doesn't really address the second excuse in any depth. Maybe change this line...

...to something more like this?

--[ ] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask to explain how her dying at this point accomplishes that, or anything. Counter any claims that she attempts to make in that regard by pointing out the flaws in her logic. Remind her that by not getting killed as she intended, she'd had the opportunity to help save hundreds of lives. If she had been dead, then Sayaka would have been killed by a witch a few days ago, and that could potentially trigger a chain of events that would end the world. By staying alive, Oriko saved the world, not by dying.
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Note to you and @Higure that we probably don't want to say Oriko wants to die either; instead we should phrase it as she's trying to die. If we get her to say that she wants it, then there's the disturbingly plausible possibility that Kirika, on hearing her say that, will follow her Wish programming and give her what she wants.
 
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TheEyes said:
Note to you and @Higure that we probably don't want to say Oriko wants to die either; instead we should phrase it as she's trying to die. If we get her to say that she wants it, then there's the disturbingly likely possibility that Kirika, on hearing her say that, will follow her Wish programming and give her what she wants.
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Uhh.
Intent of Kirika's Wish was to make her person Oriko would love and etc, so this seems somewhat far-fetched. It is not Oriko assuming direct control with every word she says, I think.
 
TheEyes said:
Note to you and @Higure that we probably don't want to say Oriko wants to die either; instead we should phrase it as she's trying to die. If we get her to say that she wants it, then there's the disturbingly plausible possibility that Kirika, on hearing her say that, will follow her Wish programming and give her what she wants.
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Kirika would do it of given the order, but she has more than enough personal will remaining to not do it without a direct one, and perhaps enough to ask Oriko to not make her do so.
 
Ohmygod I finally played something for stress relief that was actually interesting and seems like +15 lucidity points. Okay.

Targets are in yellow; Criticisms are in yellow. Everything is in a quote because of contaminating elements (the vote tally would throw a fit at me).

Higure said:
[X] Calm down and deescalate in tone and body language.
Line added to insure this doesn't build into a shouting match, at the request of Vebyast.
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting your death-and your life-to have meaning.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
I think saying this is directly contradictory to agreeing that Oriko has the right to die. Like... {"But it is my right to, if I wanted to," Oriko says, eyes glinting. "It is my right to die in a way that betters the world. This is what my powers showed me, Sabrina. This is what has to be."} "Yes, but you don't need to do it as soon as possible." That's... that's very lol. This sentence doesn't need to be part of the vote, it can just be cut out. If this is here to avoid freaking out Mami, then... I don't know what to say, I think it harms conversation with Oriko more than it alleviates Mami troubles?
Tweaked to lower chance of potential Mami freakout, upon request of Onmur, Muramasa, and Dr.Ziztah. Used a suggestion by TheEyes to do so.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
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Higure said:
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
This entire line should be bumped out of the vote until we've seen Oriko's full reaction to the preceding line. It's not that I don't like it. It's not that I think we shouldn't be saying this to her. It's that the outcome of the preceding line is far too much in doubt. We simply don't know how she will react. She could break down. She could lash out. She could try to stick her head deep enough into the sand to try to not believe us. If she reacts poorly to the previous line, this line may be very much too "hot." Frankly, if this -- if any of the lines attached to the preceding line -- are in, I'd suggest you preface them with a "If it seems reasonable, perform this action."
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further. (Do NOT reference other Orikos/Symmetry Diamond. This is about our confidence in this Oriko.)
For one thing, this line is glitched out of the tally since it has "[X}" instead of [X]. For another thing... Would suggest you frame this as "believe" instead of know? "Know" very much implies we're drawing on metaknowledge. I'd also suggest pointing to the things she's accomplished when doing this? If we're going to talk about this we'd be best off doing it via "You've done this this and this, if there's a slight chance you can do things like that in the future -- and I believe you can -- then that is far more valuable than XYZ." (less the direct quotation, anyway).
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
Added a forbiddance on discussing parallel Orikos.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
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I have no idea why it's splitting it into two quotes.
 
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I'm in favor of being as non-confrontational as possible in this conversation in order for there to be no adversity for Oriko's precog to have seen.

Which would either:

Show Oriko her precog is fallable or...

...make it so that opposing Sabrina is not the reason her Gem relaxed!

I find it difficult to determine whose vote is the least confrontational however.
 
So we're on 'on a rail'. This is the chapter where you launch a rocket.



Can we launch the Oriko into next level villainhood?
 
[Q] Disregard Oriko.
-[Q] Ask Mami if she wants you to make a full sized clone of yourself so she gets extra cuddles tonight.
--[Q] Check Best Buddy's reaction and break to voting.
 
Kaizuki said:
Ohmygod I finally played something for stress relief that was actually interesting and seems like +15 lucidity points. Okay.

Targets are in yellow; Criticisms are in yellow. Everything is in a quote because of contaminating elements (the vote tally would throw a fit at me).



I have no idea why it's splitting it into two quotes.
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While I don't feel that saying she doesn't need to immediately exercise her right to die, even though she possesses it, is contradictory, it's also not the most essential of lines, so I'll cut it in case.

Implemented all of your suggestions...except for cutting the "you're a bloody magic user, why are you treating universal laws as inviolate" bit. Not because I think your point is invalid, but because I doubt we're going to get a chance to make the point again anytime soon.

Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Calm down and deescalate in tone and body language.
Line added to insure this doesn't build into a shouting match, at the request of Vebyast.
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. You understand wanting your death-and your life-to have meaning.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
Tweaked to lower chance of potential Mami freakout, upon request of Onmur, Muramasa, and Dr.Ziztah. Used a suggestion by TheEyes to do so.
"That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible." - Cut at Kaizuki's suggestion.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
---[X] She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
Holding off on this line at Kaizuki's suggestion.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X]Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we believe she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further. (Do NOT reference other Orikos/Symmetry Diamond. This is about our confidence in this Oriko.)
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
Added a forbiddance on discussing parallel Orikos.
Switched "know" for "believe" at Kaizuki's suggestion.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
 
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