More like Properly Paranoid. Our paranoia is perfectly justified.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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DracoDracul
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Lich-Bomb. Sayaka didn't get witch-bomb because she was the one dropping said bomb.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Mmm... Something we should keep in mind.
Really, did you think she asked exactly that question out of the blue?
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Oh, for f... there was no amnesia. There was Mami drawing horrifying conclusions about Sabrina's powers and their relation to Witches and Mami dearly clinging to the hopes that those conclusions were wrong. So she needed to ask, to verify, but was really, really hoping she just had daydreamed the part of the day where we told her about the Barrier.
Really, did you think she asked exactly that question out of the blue?
Vote was to show the Barrier, as we had done it before. If we had wised up ahead of time, we'd have remembered about those 30 minutes we lost the first time, and could have prevented that mistake.
Not a more 'peaceful' way, but we didn't have to threaten to turn Kirika into a Witch. Oriko is plenty terrified or witching out, herself. If we had threatened her, we could have gotten a surrender, too. It would've been less bad.
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Omegastar
fear the {CENSORED}.
Yes but not untrue
Mami seemed surprised that we were able to create a Barrier. She happy enough when we told her that we wanted to create it and show it to her, so the idea that she was fooling herself based on a paranoia of Barriers doesn't seem to be the case.
In the most recent update, there is this snippet:
I read the frown as Mami not remembering us telling her and the realization as her remembering it. Mami (temporarily) forgot that we had told her about the Barrier. It wasn't permanent amnesia, but it is a bit alarming that she had forgotten something so important that we had told her only a couple of hours previous. What the hell happened to Mami while we were gone?
That's what I meant when I said "Firnagzen makes social situations really really difficult, often relying on details that are hard to notice ahead of time." We had talked about the 30 minute time delay earlier in the thread. We had (mostly) assumed that it we were caught up in the moment, but fully conscious the whole time. And many of us assumed that the second time around would be much quicker because we already had experience doing this sort of thing. It's extremely odd that Sabrina herself would not have realized that she had gone into a fugue state the first time and that this was something that Mami should know about. In any case, the consequences of our not noticing one small detail were much more severe than the mistake should have warranted.
We shouldn't have had to threaten anybody with witching out or death in order to convince Oriko that the best course of action was to work together to fight against the common threat.
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"No, you already have Madoka, don't NTR me mom!"
Hm, maybe. Still, I think we are lost and it is at least a concrete action that will have some results.
I'm not sure they're the best ones, though, even leaving aside Mami and Homura. If it is rude to ignore someone talking to you in favour of others, is it ruder to favour inspecting their fingernail with a microscope instead?
No votes really address her, though. (Harrumph, but I don't know how to properly address beyond [x] use the feather as a phone )
This, this and the rest of the post too:
Some points you made I agree with, others disagree, and lot of assertions on griefhax I consider flat-out impossible, due past attempts on similar lines failing.
However, none of them are really substantiated and the whole thing comes across mostly as "No, no, no, no and no, because I said so."
Well. There's something to be said for leading by example:
Yes. The thread cares about Mami and Kirika and Homura, and to a possibly smaller extent all of Mitakihara main chars and promises kept (as the norms and the like don't get as much screentime).
Furthermore, the thread seems to hold significant interest towards figuring out things in the goal of figuring out what Sabrina's powers can do and how - but this is a goal that gets put on hold the moment any of the people we are friendly with desire something.
Generally, these people suffer from mental health problems. Loneliness, self-worth, mistrust, paranoia, idolatry. At the time being, the meguca side of them at least generally are wary/combat-minded in barriers.
Barrier, for the time being, might be a transportation convince or an environment for that purpose - as our fake Mitakihara contained no people or familiars that we saw, I do not hold it very likely that those are easier to create in barrier and them furthermore being able to help with that.
But the issues are not so urgent that we would need to go faster than a plane does; at most going ridiculously fast allows us to get to other countries after school, or to some facility before it closes.
Nor can I imagine many landscapes or location that we could create in a barrier that we couldn't travel to in small amount of time otherwise and would be useful with that. For example, going to a spa might help Homura relax, but she'll relax better when not inside a barrier.
Do keep in mind that we didn't go to Oriko after finishing dealing with Barrier immediately. We stayed quite a while with Mami, and got interrupted when cuddling during teatime.
I do consider somewhat more likely possibility than "she's trying to emerge on this plane of existence, feathers first." :s But "possible" rather than "probable" for the time being.
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Part of the reason why those Witches are so easy, is the fact that we have very, very good Puella Magis fighting right beside us, in tandem. Akemi Homura has timestop and knowledge of previous time-lines, massive experience, and crazy firepower. Mami Tomoe, when serious, in peak form, and motivated is sufficiently powerful and skilled enough to fight Homura through the timestop on an even basis in Rebellion, and managed to defeat Kirika's Hax on one on one combat. True, the Rock Bomb has weakened abit of that ,were she to go solo, but she's fighting besides us after all. I can only recall two defeats Mami Tomoe experienced in canon - one against Charlotte due to cocky carelessness and haste. The second was against Kyouko in Different Story, partly because she couldn't simply bear to go all out against Kyouko.
And we are crazily OP as a combatant.
We aren't simply poor Sayaka with her melee swords, and probably too slow to evade Elsa Maria or slice through her tentacles. Here, we could simply Grief Shield Elsa's tentacles, and melt all of them, before ripping Elsa Maria apart.
Also, we aren't fighting several Witches simultaneously here.
In Social-Fu, we are acting as a psuedo therapist and doing amateur psychological triage on a cast full of crazies. Not only do we have to suicide watch Mami Tomoe, we still have to help Homura (whose mental situation is probably even more messed up than Mami Tomoe). Meanwhile, Oriko suffers from delusions of grandeur which we have to watch for, and Kirika might have increasing brain damage.
There's the Sendai Girls, and the other two girls from Mitikahara too, Then, there's Kyouko, and Yuma, who have fallen off from our radar over the past few days it seems.
We managed to take Nagisa Momoe out of the field of engagement at least.
The thing is, I think we are doing a decent job of propping Mami Tomoe up. But we can't simply "win" whatever this means, by propping Mami Tomoe up. Homura, as much as this is a callous statement, is probably more mission critical than Mami Tomoe - Godoka then Rebellion is just as much a scenario we want to avoid, as is Gretchen. And we most definitely don't want Madoka to contract (which means either limiting her information or preventing Sayaka (Madoka's great weakness) from contracting). Even if we drop onto Madoka all the bombs of the system, (plus the loop bomb for Homura), we will get an Ultimate Madoka wish (even if we explain that the consequence of this is Homura going even crazier and ripping Madoka back out into a Universal size barrier of her own manufacturing - I'm not sure what Madoka can do for a solution).
The latest developments now put Sayaka in danger of a contract - this move is a stroke of genius by the QM. And this is going to sharply increase the risk of Madoka seeking a solution to the magical girl problem, since she now has real skin in the game. So, why is Feathers trying to push Madoka to a contract?
And we are crazily OP as a combatant.
We aren't simply poor Sayaka with her melee swords, and probably too slow to evade Elsa Maria or slice through her tentacles. Here, we could simply Grief Shield Elsa's tentacles, and melt all of them, before ripping Elsa Maria apart.
Also, we aren't fighting several Witches simultaneously here.
In Social-Fu, we are acting as a psuedo therapist and doing amateur psychological triage on a cast full of crazies. Not only do we have to suicide watch Mami Tomoe, we still have to help Homura (whose mental situation is probably even more messed up than Mami Tomoe). Meanwhile, Oriko suffers from delusions of grandeur which we have to watch for, and Kirika might have increasing brain damage.
There's the Sendai Girls, and the other two girls from Mitikahara too, Then, there's Kyouko, and Yuma, who have fallen off from our radar over the past few days it seems.
We managed to take Nagisa Momoe out of the field of engagement at least.
The thing is, I think we are doing a decent job of propping Mami Tomoe up. But we can't simply "win" whatever this means, by propping Mami Tomoe up. Homura, as much as this is a callous statement, is probably more mission critical than Mami Tomoe - Godoka then Rebellion is just as much a scenario we want to avoid, as is Gretchen. And we most definitely don't want Madoka to contract (which means either limiting her information or preventing Sayaka (Madoka's great weakness) from contracting). Even if we drop onto Madoka all the bombs of the system, (plus the loop bomb for Homura), we will get an Ultimate Madoka wish (even if we explain that the consequence of this is Homura going even crazier and ripping Madoka back out into a Universal size barrier of her own manufacturing - I'm not sure what Madoka can do for a solution).
The latest developments now put Sayaka in danger of a contract - this move is a stroke of genius by the QM. And this is going to sharply increase the risk of Madoka seeking a solution to the magical girl problem, since she now has real skin in the game. So, why is Feathers trying to push Madoka to a contract?
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Gadjo
Doka
We are massively overpowered. He said so OOC early on. Combat is not our test. I mean, Elsa was easy? Of course she was. Apparently feathers didn't boost its power. Keep in mind Sayaka was a pretty weak MG. She surprised Kyoko with her tenacity, but never really stood a chance. We, on the other hand are:
Homura: a girl who has killed countless witches over her loops
Mami: One of the most powerful MGs in Mitakihara, with years of experience and plenty of dakka
Sabrina: A girl who can literally rip a witch's very being in twain with her mind.
Her giving us trouble when one newbie meguca can kill her would be a stretch.
CompassJimbo
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DracoDracul
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Poor Sayaka, loosing her crush to a girl that's just going to break his heart in a few years when she realizes girls can love girls.
A reminder. This is canon.
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A dreadful idea has just come to me. Inspired by discussions of Delore (and after watching a reaction video series to Rebellion on youtube), there's a possible way to break the system and still keep Madoka around. Essentially, what we do, is to make it so that Puella Magis can fully assert their sanity and humanity after Witching out, and control their Witch form, much as Sayaka Miki demonstrated in Rebellion with her control and ability to dismiss and summon Oktavia at will to aid her in battle. Openly transcending and going beyond both Witch and Puella Magi for all Puella Magis. Judging by the Sendai Group arc though, this would almost certainly up the ante of Puella Magi warfare.... although it may remove much of the normal incentives.
Imagine that arc... with every Puella Magi being able to do what Sayaka Miki did in Rebellion, and clashing in Witch on Witch combat.
And it starts by creating Delore out of our Grief Sphere collection, and trying to manipulate the simulation of our witch around.
Though, the risk is that either Oriko or Homura might freak out, and try to kill us.
Also, it goes too close to a Witch Bomb for Mami Tomoe.
Imagine that arc... with every Puella Magi being able to do what Sayaka Miki did in Rebellion, and clashing in Witch on Witch combat.
And it starts by creating Delore out of our Grief Sphere collection, and trying to manipulate the simulation of our witch around.
Though, the risk is that either Oriko or Homura might freak out, and try to kill us.
Also, it goes too close to a Witch Bomb for Mami Tomoe.
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noahgab1133
Fluffy?
also suitably and ironically similar to the sv meme of witching out for super powers XD
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Only, every girl get's to do this with their ability to use their human body freely, intact.
BeaconHill
Lost Among Carbon Fields
Witches don't seem to mind distance, built-up areas, or being in a building with other people. Hitomi is evidence of this; she was abducted from far across the city (Madoka seemed to think she should have been at some sort of study function, which would have had other people) and marched across a very dense downtown area, meeting Madoka in the process.
We have canonical evidence that both of these statements aren't always true. The first Witch Kiss victim we ever saw, the one Mami saved, was not part of a group. It would be just as astronomically unlikely for Hitomi to get attacked by a witch, and yet she canonically was. True randomness is therefore implausible. Perhaps Witches select victims using the same "karmic destiny" metric Kyubey uses, which would prioritize Sayaka and Hitomi both. Or perhaps Kyubey arranged for that to happen, in which case he is also our primary suspect this time.
That would be an excellent argument for my position, which is that we shouldn't make broad and constricting promises just to make Homura and Mami happier. I am not sure what point you are trying to make, though.
There's clearly something going on regarding range and barriers, because we made Mitakihara. I guarantee you that the city is more than 100m in diameter. I'd say it's already pretty much confirmed that we have unlimited range within our barriers. This gives rise to two questions: one, can we learn something within the barrier that will translate into increased range outside of it (probably not, but you never know) and two, can the barrier interact with the outside world at multiple points more than 100m distant from each other (we have no strong indication either way).
I think that us questers are more than well-equipped to ignore Kyubey's mind games should he try them, so *-bombs aren't much of a risk.
I am pointing out that there are many answers beside the most obvious one. None of those are especially plausible, but the most obvious answer isn't particularly likely itself.
I'm not going to respond to all the instances of this happening, but I'll make an exception for this one because it's really blatant. I covered that point in another post. In fact, I explicitly acknowledged that this was a possibility. You quoted the very line. Please read what I wrote before trying to argue against it.
Oriko and Kirika had survived several days of house arrest by that point. Though Homura has never trusted them, and likely never will, it does not make sense that she was immediately itching to bury an axe in their heads at that very moment. Her concerns were about us.
Are you unaware of the concept of "canon"? There are things that we already know Barriers can do. They have a long-established track record, and are the only powerful Grief magic we've yet tried that has other known users.
I did not. I said that we can, risk-free, know that Barriers have certain capabilities, because we've already seen them used in canon or Adfligo Systema.
Really? Let me cite...
Yours is not an implausible reading of the chapter, but not nearly the only possible one. "Where the Barrier was" would seem to exactly describe something falling from on top of the Barrier, for example.
Not really. Homura uses strong words about it, but she seems to be quoting Oriko, not making an independent assessment. When they're just discussing the implausibility of Sayaka getting kissed, they're relatively restrained. As I said before, canonically Witches do Kiss single victims. And it would be well within the powers of anyone who can influence Witches to arrange it; I wouldn't put it past Kyubey, for instance.Sereg said:
That is far more powerful than I think Oriko actually claimed. Let me quote her...
Not only does Oriko not seem to think things changed retroactively, she actually thinks this effect is exactly the same as the one that we ourselves have, making it entirely consistent with (for instance) Kyubey deciding to act after observing us doing something.
She does describe an immediate shift in the futures, but that's likely because she's not constantly watching Sayaka; if the futures change while Oriko's not looking at them, I imagine it would be quite disorienting.
Sayaka almost certainly didn't teleport; her movements are entirely consistent with the usual "sleepwalk across town" MO for Witch Kisses. Oriko spotted Sayaka getting kissed about forty minutes before our intervention; that's more than enough time for her to get where she was. (And, incidentally, I treat this odd delay as evidence in favor of the idea that Oriko is up to something.)
I'll admit, this is something Barriers will for the most part not help with. I do think there are some therapeutic opportunities in there that we won't have in the real world, though. Zilla therapy, for example. Can't stomp on the real Mitakihara.
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Lordsservent
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My guess would be that it's"I wish I could protect Oriko." Or some variation of that which would give her anti-magic.
Gadjo
Doka
Doesn't have to bomb us. Just get information from what we say and ask and feed us half-truths to trick us into doing dumb things. Kyubey is good at what he does. Talking to him is very very dangerous.
Wish for the power to alleviate Oriko's head aches.
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Would also explain why Oriko always hands her gem to Kirika, so that Kirika can use her powers to alleviate the head aches.
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I read this quote as Oriko contrasting our actions (things just "change") with what happened here (instead "spliced/truncated").
And ultimately, "truncated/spliced" implies a discontinuity that we know our actions do not cause. Our actions can't be predicted in advance, but it's still a continuous timeline.
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Lordsservent
Servant of the one true God and SV
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- The centre of the Multiverse
Of course he has to be good, other wise there would be a different incubator agent making contracts to reverse entropy.
Hi friends.
I've noticed a lot of talk about what Feathers is or what it symbolizes. A lot of speculation, honestly. I just want to pop in and say something definite.
Feathers, or possibly Feathers's presence in this timeline, is almost certainly caused by the same sequence of events that caused Sabrina.
If you think that Feathers is a direct result of Sabrina's actions, those actions would never have been taken if Sabrina didn't exist.
If you think that Feathers is a result of Sabrina's existence (Dedolere, for example), then what caused Sabrina simultaneously caused Feathers.
If you think that Feathers is something that should have existed, but didn't because of what happened last timeline (Homucifier / Law of Cycles, for example), then the sequence of events that resulted in Sabrina's timeline and therefore Sabrina herself caused Feathers.
If you think that Feathers is something that exists because of Madoka's wish last timeline, then unless you're completely certain that Sabrina has nothing to do with that wish, they form from the same root cause. Plus, you know, the "hilarious bootstrap process" comment implies that the wish was involved.
No matter what your theory on what Feathers is or how Sabrina came about, this is very difficult to dispute. The same events that caused Sabrina and the PMAS timeline as a whole, also must result in Feathers. From a meta-perspective, this is also true; the forces opposing Sabrina were implied to be set before we made any wish. All the way back in the Original Post of this thread.
I don't have any definite conclusions to present, but what this implies about our powers' relationship or lack thereof to Feathers seems pretty clear. It seems more accurate to say that Feathers is involved in our existence rather than our powers.
I've noticed a lot of talk about what Feathers is or what it symbolizes. A lot of speculation, honestly. I just want to pop in and say something definite.
Feathers, or possibly Feathers's presence in this timeline, is almost certainly caused by the same sequence of events that caused Sabrina.
If you think that Feathers is a direct result of Sabrina's actions, those actions would never have been taken if Sabrina didn't exist.
If you think that Feathers is a result of Sabrina's existence (Dedolere, for example), then what caused Sabrina simultaneously caused Feathers.
If you think that Feathers is something that should have existed, but didn't because of what happened last timeline (Homucifier / Law of Cycles, for example), then the sequence of events that resulted in Sabrina's timeline and therefore Sabrina herself caused Feathers.
If you think that Feathers is something that exists because of Madoka's wish last timeline, then unless you're completely certain that Sabrina has nothing to do with that wish, they form from the same root cause. Plus, you know, the "hilarious bootstrap process" comment implies that the wish was involved.
No matter what your theory on what Feathers is or how Sabrina came about, this is very difficult to dispute. The same events that caused Sabrina and the PMAS timeline as a whole, also must result in Feathers. From a meta-perspective, this is also true; the forces opposing Sabrina were implied to be set before we made any wish. All the way back in the Original Post of this thread.
I don't have any definite conclusions to present, but what this implies about our powers' relationship or lack thereof to Feathers seems pretty clear. It seems more accurate to say that Feathers is involved in our existence rather than our powers.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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...er, on the contrary, if we're looking for Homucifer, our Barrier is the best place to look.
Like, the only place to look.
Where has the only piece of physical evidence for Feathers' existence been found? Our Barrier. When has Feathers' only confirmed instance of direct intervention/influence occurred? Right when we made our Barrier for the second time. Who is the only person who seems to be able to hear creepy voices related to Feathers? Sabrina. Whose very existence is ontologically and directly linked to Homucifer/Homura and Madokami/Madoka? Sabrina. Out of all Barriers, whose Barrier is the most unique, unprecedented, and undefined? Sabrina's.
And so far, Feathers has yet to do anything related to Madoka in this world. If it had, then Homura--who spends most of her time hanging around Madoka, keeping an eye out for any kind of threat or anything suspicious--would be the first to notice something was off, right? Yet she hasn't noticed anything amiss until now (shortly after we did).
Frankly, I find the idea of Feathers already being directly and physically in our world to be ludicrous, especially since there'd be absolutely nothing Sabrina could do to stop Feathers from doing whatever it wants--from a game design/meta perspective, that's stupid and pointless. And yes, boone, you don't like thinking about (or really "get") things from a meta perspective, we understand, but it is still objectively true, and refusing to acknowledge that would be delusional.
The logic is a bit broken on this one. You're saying that the sequence of events that resulted in the timeline that Sabrina exists in and Sabrina herself are the same thing? Wut?
Even if you didn't intend it to be worded that exact way, it's a nonsensical leap of logic to say that "because the series of events leading up to X/that caused X, the result of those events is what caused that result."
The sense, it does not make.
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@SaltyWaffles
Missing a comma, I think?
If you believe that Sabrina is caused in part by Madowish, then that's that. What caused Madowish caused the next timeline and by proxy, Sabrina. If you don't, then even so, last timeline diverged from the canon one for some reason. In the next timeline, the anomaly that is Sabrina and the one that is Feathers exist. Something that happened in the previous timeline caused the anomalies in this one. The worst you can accuse that logic of is a correlation / causation problem, but given everything that's pretty fucking unlikely.
Missing a comma, I think?
If you believe that Sabrina is caused in part by Madowish, then that's that. What caused Madowish caused the next timeline and by proxy, Sabrina. If you don't, then even so, last timeline diverged from the canon one for some reason. In the next timeline, the anomaly that is Sabrina and the one that is Feathers exist. Something that happened in the previous timeline caused the anomalies in this one. The worst you can accuse that logic of is a correlation / causation problem, but given everything that's pretty fucking unlikely.