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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Ugolino said:
The seer is a bag of issues with an unpleasant track record...but honestly, by lending an ear and being willing to cooperate, we should make it so that her worse loops never come to pass. Left to her own devices, she tried to fight Walpurgisnacht and saved Yuma in another loop where she saw it instead of Gretchen. I'm almost certain she's saveable.
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That's the other thing, why isn't she seeing Gretchen? Walpurgisnacht can destroy the city, but by this loop Gretchen should be able to destroy the world. She can see Walpurgisnacht, she can "see" Feathers, why not Gretchen? While Gretchen would be could be in the kind of weight class Feathers is speculated to be, feathers aren't anything I'd associate with her (more shadows and/or threads).

If Sabrina is the result of Madoka's wish, could that have reset her karmic potential?
 
Fisrt of all, sorry if I'm slow but my phone is writing in slow motion right now.
Ugolino said:
Try and make it so that Oriko never considers that kind of extremism necessary, befriend her, and try and get her to take healthier, less extreme approaches. Remember that Oriko's freakout in her original series was when she was spiralling and basically having a prolonged version of Mami's breakdown because Kirika was going to witch, just told her about lobotomizing herself for her sake, and to top it all off with her plan in ruins, everyone was going to die because of Gretchen.

So she snapped, scrapped the plan with a relatively low body count, and let a witch loose on the school in a last-ditch attempt to salvage the plan.

That shouldn't happen here, and we've tried to persuade her that there's a
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I lacked context actually (never read Oriko Magika) and I thank you for the informations. I do believe that Oriko is not hopeless and I hope that we could make her take less drastic measures in the future. I really just felt like explaining Homura's point of view and to not let people forget of the danger!

Ugolino said:
The seer is a bag of issues with an unpleasant track record...but honestly, by lending an ear and being willing to cooperate, we should make it so that her worse loops never come to pass. Left to her own devices, she tried to fight Walpurgisnacht and saved Yuma in another loop where she saw it instead of Gretchen. I'm almost certain she's saveable.

The key to Oriko is to make it so that she never feels extreme measures are necessary, and that she doesn't need to plot on her own to Do What Needs to Be Done. Remember, she didn't think we'd listen to her at the start, causing her to set herself up as an antagonist before we stomped that plan. Befriending her and Kirika should also help there since she tends to feel isolated.
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Oriko has surely started to trust us much more but, more importantly, I'm starting to think that we really made the right choice by befriending Kirika! Even for Oriko killing her girlfriend's besties might be too much, regardless of what Kirika might decide to do.
 
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DracoDracul said:
That's the other thing, why isn't she seeing Gretchen? Walpurgisnacht can destroy the city, but by this loop Gretchen should be able to destroy the world. She can see Walpurgisnacht, she can "see" Feathers, why not Gretchen? While Gretchen would be could be in the kind of weight class Feathers is speculated to be, feathers aren't anything I'd associate with her (more shadows and/or threads).

If Sabrina is the result of Madoka's wish, could that have reset her karmic potential?
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She did see Walpurgis instead of Gretchen in a different loop, so...yeah, some interpretation may vary re: Orikovision.
 
Oriko's working theory is that if Feathers isn't taken care of, it'll apparently kill Sayaka, Madoka, and a few other people, so that's probably why Gretchen isn't in her visions.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Oriko's working theory is that if Feathers isn't taken care of, it'll apparently kill Sayaka, Madoka, and a few other people, so that's probably why Gretchen isn't in her visions.
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Mmm... Actually,
"It's not," Oriko replies. "A Witch, you can kill."
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Hypothetically, could Sabrina kill Ultimate Gretchen, if she got forewarning of its spawning place and time?

Hypothetically. It kind of feels wrong to talk about Madoka like this.
 
o3o said:
Well, witches appear to be composed of grief, so if Gretchen was composed of grief, and is actually able to be fought (ie, doesn't just handwave us out of existence), it'd make sense for Sabrina to be able to destroy it bit by bit, within chunks sized to her range. (100m, right?)
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Unless Gretchen is so big that she can regenerate quicker than Sabrina can tear her apart.
 
o3o said:
Well, witches appear to be composed of grief, so if Gretchen was composed of grief, and is actually able to be fought (ie, doesn't just handwave us out of existence), it'd make sense for Sabrina to be able to destroy it bit by bit, within chunks sized to her range. (100m, right?)
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I'd guess it'd be a game of Exponential Growth vs. Turn One OP Aggression.

Sabrina would need to go full Dissoluzione Bianca before Gretchen can grow outside her range. If Gretchen isn't given enough time to ramp up, Sabrina wins!

Gretchen would need to grow quickly enough to become bigger than Sabrina's range/become too powerful for Sabrina to dissolve her efficiently. Once Gretchen's growth/time surpases Sabrina's capacity to destroy her, Gretchen wins!
 
o3o said:
On the other hand, I'm not convinced Gretchen would ever be able to do anything to Sabrina, since Sabrina can no sell anything a witch does. That is, even if Gretchen grows bigger then the moon, she still won't be able to do anything in a 100 meter radius around Sabrina; she can do stuff around that radius, but... hmm, actually, do grief seeds scale with the size of a witch?
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Eh, Sabrina can get blindsided and overwhelmed just like anyone else. And it takes concentration for her to take control of another Witch's grief; there's always a some resistance.
 
Onmur said:
Eh, Sabrina can get blindsided and overwhelmed just like anyone else. And it takes concentration for her to take control of another Witch's grief; there's always a some resistance.
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Yeah, but we've yet to see a Witch take control of our grief, which means Soul Gem Shell-Armour + No-body training = An eternal fighter who can't die unless you break through the main force of a wish with just under a literal goddess's potential. So, if Madoka became a Witch, I think that we'd be able to survive the fight long enough to figure out (If we haven't already) how to fix her.

Optimism Ho!
 
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[X] techsy730

To help clear up the vote situation some.

Did not read all the discussion, just saw the cluster-f the latest vote tally was in and knew this was the time to bring this gag back.
 
chocolote12 said:
Yeah, but we've yet to see a Witch take control of our grief, which means Soul Gem Shell-Armour + No-body training = An eternal fighter who can't die unless you break through the main force of a wish with just under a literal goddess's potential. So, if Madoka became a Witch, I think that we'd be able to survive the fight long enough to figure out (If we haven't already) how to fix her.
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We don't really know about that. What we know about our potential is that it was immense, and [REDACTED], because of [REDACTED].

I think if we actually get into a fight with Kriemhild Gretchen, we won't have the luxury of figuring out anything. If we take too long, she might nom the universe. Or the World, at least.
 
Onmur said:
We don't really know about that. What we know about our potential is that it was immense, and [REDACTED], because of [REDACTED].

I think if we actually get into a fight with Kriemhild Gretchen, we won't have the luxury of figuring out anything. If we take too long, she might nom the universe. Or the World, at least.
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Well, Firn said that we could wish for anything that wouldn't end all conflict that we would ever face, so no becoming a concept, but pretty much everything else, so that's how I interpreted the statement...

And doesn't it take her a fortnight to destroy the world? We could speed up our mental functions with a magical grief computer and spend a lot of time thinking about it, unless she no-sells us, no?
 
Going into this with the understanding that if we ever need to take out Kreimhild, things have already gone impossibly wrong, and that this is a pointless power levels debate...

Based on our current guess for Sabrina's creation (some weird interaction between alt!Madoka's wish, Madokami, and Homucifer), Sabrina's potential is smaller than Madoka's. Additionally, a witch is always more powerful than the MG it spawned from - that's the exploit that Madoka used to become God, in fact. Thus, in pure power output, KG should overpower us.

However, Sabrina's wish (and wishes always come true) was to control all grief, and KG is made of grief. Thus, to win, I suspect we'd need to come at the problem sideways, "taking control" of KG instead of pulling out the biggatons.

Incidentally, Sabrina's wish is currently in the same "in the process of being fulfilled" state that Homura's is - we certainly control grief, including the grief of witches, but we don't control "All of it!", at least not yet.
 
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DracoDracul said:
Not related to the question at hand, but does it seem like Kuybey hasn't really tried to contract with Madoka? I know that might just be from the fact that we aren't seeing it from her prospective, but it kind of sticks out to me.
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With 3 strong meguca around who can fight any witches that pop up and who are encouraging Madoka not to contract and nothing pressing that Madoka desires, there's really no need for Madoka to contract, and Kyuubey knows that it would be counter-productive to press the issue. But you can be sure that he's working behind the scenes to change the situation so that Madoka does have a reason to contract.

DracoDracul said:
That's the other thing, why isn't she seeing Gretchen? Walpurgisnacht can destroy the city, but by this loop Gretchen should be able to destroy the world. She can see Walpurgisnacht, she can "see" Feathers, why not Gretchen? While Gretchen would be could be in the kind of weight class Feathers is speculated to be, feathers aren't anything I'd associate with her (more shadows and/or threads).
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Oriko claimed that "Feathers" was not a witch. And she hasn't shown any particular focus on Madoka apart from emphasizing to Homura that Madoka's safety was one of her priorities. I presume that this means that she either cannot see Gretchen or else that she thinks that she can work with us to prevent Madoka from contracting in the first place.

If Sabrina is the result of Madoka's wish, could that have reset her karmic potential?
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It is possible that Madoka's potential was reduced or hidden by Madokami - and there are some hints that it is the case: Madoka feels the same as Sayaka to our grief senses, for instance, and Sabrina's potential was implied to have been given to her by Madokami. We haven't yet had the opportunity to create a device to measure potential in order to check Madoka out, but in the meantime we should keep our guard up and continue to operate on the assumption that Madoka still has all of her potential.
 
If we ever find ourselves up against Gretchen, it's time for that grief time machine.


...Still wondering if we could duplicate Homura's shield...
 
Muramasa said:
If we ever find ourselves up against Gretchen, it's time for that grief time machine.


...Still wondering if we could duplicate Homura's shield...
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Don't remind me. There's so many things I'd like to try and make with Witchy Grief. Got to fill that Gate of Babylon... Maybe something for when timeskips happen.
 
I don't think critics are going to be happy with this edit either, but it communicates what that questionable line was meant to say in a much more precise way.

Vote now reads:

[X] Ask to have this conversation more privately (timestop).
-[x] I agree that it shouldn't have happened. At least Sayaka's okay.
--[x] Oriko gave us good information, Mami, but it's also clear she has no real idea what caused today's attack.
---[x] It's up to the three of us - this team - to figure that out. It looks to me like Sayaka was specifically targeted. Even ignoring Oriko, something unknown to us might have directed this attack.
---[x] Show them the feather and explain the circumstances that it appeared. Ask what they think of those events.
-[X] Listen to what the others say in response. If the subject wavers from Oriko, cut the vote here. If it doesn't, or if they don't say much, continue.
[X] Homura... I've given some thought to what we talked about yesterday.
-[X] I know I'm not the most sensible person when it comes to being trusting. So I'm relying on you - both of you - to watch out for me or reign me in. Like you tried to do yesterday. So, thank you for that, and I'm sorry I made you worry.
-[X] Oriko gave us useful information today, but you're right that I shouldn't rely on her information to always be good. I know I like to think the best of everyone, but Oriko has been mistaken, can withhold information, or influence me towards plans she doesn't disclose.
-[X] I mean, there's a difference between thinking, and trusting, that she won't do anything dangerous again. It's going to take a lot of solid proof to make up that difference. I hope we get that, but I understand your skepticism.
-[X] I guess what I'm saying is, treat her as only one potential source. Doublecheck any information she gives us, while staying alert for omissions or hidden agendas.
[X] If what we said seems ok, then:
-[X] Apologize for not having the sense to just say that yesterday. Reiterate that despite all the things we take on, we'll always be her friend and ally first. Hug Mami closer so she understands she's included in that statement.
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Redshirt Army said:
Additionally, a witch is always more powerful than the MG it spawned from - that's the exploit that Madoka used to become God, in fact.
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Eh, untrue on both points. A Witch pretty much has to be weaker than the Magical Girl that spawned it because of the sheer fact that a single Magical Girl can take out dozens of Witches atleast before they wear out. It's not even a 50:50 thing, since a Magical Girl can take them out with little trouble most of the time.

This is misleadingly obfusciated, however, by the facts that Magical Girls have a stronger apparent intelligence, Witches don't need to worry about mana pools, Magical Girls can work together (though usually don't), and Witches have Familiars and Barriers.

As for Madoka's godhood, that's more the result of her enormous potential being put towards a wish so specifically worded that it required her to become an eternal being not bound by any laws of the universe in any way, shape, or form. So. Yea. God.
 
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