Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
[X] Ask to have this conversation more privately (timestop)
-[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
--[X] Take out the feather and say that you think it might be related to the threat Oriko predicted. It did show up around the time Sayaka got Kissed.
[X] As for Oriko...
-[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she is being sincere about helping you and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
--[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous, however. She is capable lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's absolutely necessary. You'll try and be careful around her and the information she gives you. As much as she's helped already, it wouldn't be smart to completely rely on her, especially now that her visions are changing.
[X] Concede that you haven't always displayed the best judgment, and you all are suppose to be a team. Ask them what they think about all this.

Bah, updated my vote, if anyone even cares. Really kind of wishing that Mami hadn't tried to talk about this right now.
 
Last edited:
Onmur said:
Irony aside, we can trust in Homura's word. She's agreed to try things our way, because we're getting better results. Today, keeping Oriko around was essential in saving Sayaka. That's one point why Homura won't go murderface Oriko. With time, we'll get more.


I say we can't take those steps. We're tripping over our own metaphorical feet. 24 hours is not nearly enough time to re-poke this issue.

You know, neither yours nor SWB's vote has us backing out. At all. SWB's vote just doesn't attempt to move forward right at this moment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
SWBs does nothing about the Oriko question. It actively and clumsily dodges it while giving the green light to Homura's paranoia. This is not a good idea in the slightest. At best, that's stalling.
 
Last edited:
Actually, it is Mami who's asked Sabrina's opinion on Oriko. Homura does want to hear the answer, though.

I'm trying to interpret latter half of the last update, but I just can't get a read on Homu :D

What did she mean by 'that should not have happened'? Was it about how earlier Oriko's actions were useless / implying Oriko was lying about that; or was it simply about how Sayaka couldn't get into that situation without interference?

She didn't take well Mami's line on Oriko telling the truth...
She's wary and tired, yet at the same time expectant? What exactly is she expectant about?
I could see her expecting Sabrina to trust Oriko(or at least her visions) less because Sayaka got Witch Kissed; but that doesn't make sense in the light of Oriko allowing them to save Sayaka.
Is she wary & expectant of Sabrina to go all 'yay Oriko'?

I can't into social...can't come up with meaningful explanation. Either she's sending mixed signals, or I'm not getting something crucial.
 
Last edited:
Homura's referring to Sayaka being in danger, ie; interference.

Homura wants to know what we think too. We need to say it, not dance around it since that's essentially stalling on something we can't really stall on.

I don't want to avoid answering Mami because we're scared being honest might be telling Homura something she won't like hearing. Be tactful, make sure Homura gets that we know Oriko is potentially dangerous, but don't try and wriggle out of something we can't wriggle out of.
 
Last edited:
cmwatford said:
Starting to think Gretchen had the right of it. Is it too late for us to witch out for super powers to bring world 'peace'?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We save that until we're past the Godzilla Dedolere Threshold. The point that we're so screwed that becoming a potentially universe destroying monster can't make the situation worse.
 
Ugolino said:
SWBs does nothing about the Oriko question. It actively and clumsily dodges it while giving the green light to Homura's paranoia. This is not a good idea in the slightest. At best, that's stalling.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then stall. Don't try to move forward when the only way forward leads right into a wall. With spikes. And you don't want to hurt the wall, either.
Agent Whiskers said:
[X] Ask to have this conversation more privately (timestop)
-[X] Things are definitely strange here. Sayaka was the only one Kissed, and her parents probably should have gotten hit with one as well. There was also the matter of her appearing all the way away from her home. It could be that Sayaka was specifically targeted here. It's best to be careful and keep a closer eye on your non-magical girl friends.
--[X] Take out the feather and say that you think it might be related to the threat Oriko predicted. It did show up around the time Sayaka got Kissed.
[X] As for Oriko...
-[X] Although you can't be completely certain, you do believe that she is being sincere about helping you and that she was telling truth about what she saw.
--[X] That doesn't make her completely trustworthy or any less dangerous, however. She is capable lies, manipulations... or worse, if she believes it's absolutely necessary. You'll try and be careful around her and the information she gives you. As much as she's helped already, it wouldn't be smart to completely rely on her, especially now that her visions are changing.
[X] Concede that you haven't always displayed the best judgment, and you all are suppose to be a team. Ask them what they think about all this.

Bah, updated my vote, if anyone even cares. Really kind of wishing that Mami hadn't tried to talk about this right now.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's a nice vote.

Crvt said:
What did she mean by 'that should not have happened'? Was it about how earlier Oriko's actions were useless; or was it simply about how Sayaka couldn't get into that situation without interference?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's kind of vague. Elsa Maria shouldn't have been there; Witches don't work like this; Sayaka never met this Witch as anything other than a Magical Girl; things are changing and spiralling out of control and Homura's feeling more and more lost...
 
Agent Whiskers said:
There's a big difference between being honest about your opinion and trying to make other people see things your way. You do realize that, right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually, there isn't much difference between the two. When you honestly believe that something is true and you tell someone about what you believe and the reasons for it, then you should hope that they will come see things the same way because (to the best of your knowledge) it's the truth. Granted, there is a difference is if you try to manipulate someone into believing something by lying or hiding truths that would detract from that belief. But that is not what's happening here.

And didn't we already tell them about the feather we found?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We mentioned it in passing, but we didn't discuss it at all, nor did we actually show it.

Onmur said:
We can't cement Oriko's loyalty on Homura's mind. At all. Mami could be swayed, but suggesting Oriko's not all that bad or that she could be trusted a little is exactly how we pissed her off until she shut us off yesterday.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The problem yesterday was not that we trusted Oriko a little but rather that it seemed that we were trusting Oriko a lot. However, today's events changed some things. We included Homura in our conversations with Oriko today. That was a bit awkward at the time, but it proved to Homura that we're taking this seriously and that we do trust her more than we do Oriko. Similarly, we checked out Sayaka's house despite Oriko saying that Sayaka was in the Industrial district. These things have earned us a bit of leeway with Homura because we've proven to her that we're not blindly following Oriko's lead.
 
Last edited:
Onmur said:
Then stall. Don't try to move forward when the only way forward leads right into a wall. With spikes. And you don't want to hurt the wall, either.

It's a nice vote.


That's kind of vague. Elsa Maria shouldn't have been there; Witches don't work like this; Sayaka never met this Witch as anything other than a Magical Girl; things are changing and spiralling out of control and Homura's feeling more and more lost...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No. Stalling is never the right answer because by definition it is a non-vote that fails to answer the question or get anything done. Homura is not a delicate flower to hide everything from, and while tact is called for, dishonesty or vagueness is not, and that is EXACTLY what a stalling vote does here.

Stalling votes are actively counterproductive.

My answer here is FULL SPEED AHEAD. Whiskers vote works but I'm sticking with mine.
 
Ugolino said:
My answer here is FULL SPEED AHEAD.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I hope that's hyperbole. You know we've got a problem with rushing things until people break.

Ugolino said:
No. Stalling is never the right answer because by definition it is a non-vote that fails to answer the question or get anything done. Homura is not a delicate flower to hide everything from, and while tact is called for, dishonesty or vagueness is not, and that is EXACTLY what a stalling vote does here.

Stalling votes are actively counterproductive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes. Stalling is right when there's no way forward. We answer the question by sticking to our guns. Homura is delicate, in case her breaking down repeatedly doesn't show it. Give her time. We'll press the issue at another point, after Oriko's shown her worth more.

Stalling is not counterproductive. Stalling is managing to not move forward, nor back. Moving forward and breaking our head against a wall is counterproductive.
 
Crvt said:
Actually, it is Mami who's asked Sabrina's opinion on Oriko. Homura does want to hear the answer, though.

I'm trying to interpret latter half of the last update, but I just can't get a read on Homu :D

What did she mean by 'that should not have happened'? Was it about how earlier Oriko's actions were useless / implying Oriko was lying about that; or was it simply about how Sayaka couldn't get into that situation without interference?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The glance at Mami indicates that its a "this is a timeline anomaly" comment. According to Homura's timeline knowledge, this situation shouldn't have happened.

She didn't take well Mami's line on Oriko telling the truth...
She's wary and tired, yet at the same time expectant? What exactly is she expectant about?
I could see her expecting Sabrina to trust Oriko(or at least her visions) less because Sayaka got Witch Kissed; but that doesn't make sense in the light of Oriko allowing them to save Sayaka.
Is she wary & expectant of Sabrina to go all 'yay Oriko'?

I can't into social...can't come up with meaningful explanation. Either she's sending mixed signals, or I'm not getting something crucial.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's because she is mixing signals. She's tired and wary because of what we spoke about yesterday; she doesn't want to go through the same song and dance again. Note how she's reacted positively every time we appreciate how she's helped today and also when we value her opinion. Note that at the end of the conversation yesterday she was genuinely worried about retaining our cooperation. Of course this is in addition to the normal Homura tiredness. Girl's worn thin.

I read the expectation a little different than most people; we have knowledge that she doesn't, so she's asking us if we have an explanation. This goes doubly because if you accept Oriko's theory like Mami suggests, the anomaly has something to do with us, and given that we're the other anomalous thing this loop (refer to yesterday's conversation, again), it isn't an outlandish idea. Even discounting Oriko.

You could also read that she wants to know if we're going to respond more reasonably than yesterday to the Oriko issue.
 
How is it that we have the self awareness that we are too pushy, that we are repeatedly called out by other characters for going too fast, and yet still think that FULL SPEED AHEAD is a good idea to bandwagon on?
 
EtchedSteel said:
Because sometimes there's playing safe, and other times there's taking some risks.

This is one of the later.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's doing the same thing we did yesterday with an expectation of a different result.

This is an opportunity not to prove to Homura that Oriko is valuable, but to re-prove to her that our relationship with Homura is more than just lending each other our powers. We even got good advice yesterday that we should patch things up, but in no way did Mami mean we should immediately reopen the subject we disagreed about. Trying to move forward on Oriko first is entirely too soon.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It's doing the same thing we did yesterday with an expectation of a different result.

This is an opportunity not to prove to Homura that Oriko is valuable, but to re-prove to her that our relationship with Homura is more than just lending each other our powers. We even got good advice yesterday that we should patch things up, but in no way did Mami mean we should immediately reopen the subject we disagreed about. Trying to move forward on Oriko first is entirely too soon.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is not the same thing that we did yesterday. Here was my evaluation of what we did wrong yesterday:
boonerunner said:
I just read over the chapters and here are the mistakes that we made which we should not repeat:
1. We didn't respond to Homura's actual concerns and didn't answer her questions.
2. We talked too much about things that Homura considered irrelevant (e.g. the clear seed research) and didn't do enough listening.
3. We treated Homura's fears as irrational.
4. We gave reassurances that we don't have the power to enforce (i.e. that Oriko won't hurt Madoka).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This vote is better on all four counts.
1. We are responding directly to Mami's question. In addition, we are asking Mami and Homura for feedback.
2. All of the things we're bringing up are directly relevant to what Homura and Mami are thinking about.
3. We are acknowledging Homura's fears as rational, explaining how we are going to be careful about our interactions with Oriko in the future.
4. We aren't making any empty promises.

In addition, there is new information that we did not have available to discuss yesterday:
1. the Feather.
2. Oriko's previous plot to save Sayaka on her own was rendered ineffective.
3. We were able to save Sayaka by working with Oriko.
 
Sure, but there's no reason to then use that information to wave in Homura's face a point about trustworthiness. Especially when how much Homura trusts Oriko is related to Oriko killing Madoka, which isn't something we can erase with the accuracy of feathers or saving Sayaka.



Anyway, I've made the following changes to my vote, based on discussion here and stealing a few lines from Ugo:

[X] Ask to have this conversation more privately (timestop).
-[x] I agree that it shouldn't have happened. At least Sayaka's okay.
--[x] Oriko gave us good information, Mami, but it's also clear she has no real idea what caused today's attack.
---[x] It's up to the three of us - this team - to figure that out. It looks to me like Sayaka was specifically targeted. Even ignoring Oriko, something unknown to us might have directed this attack.
---[x] Show them the feather and explain the circumstances that it appeared. Ask what they think of those events.
-[X] Listen to what the others say in response. If the subject wavers from Oriko, cut the vote here. If it doesn't, or if they don't say much, continue.
[X] Homura... I've given some thought to what we talked about yesterday.
-[X] I know I'm not the most sensible person when it comes to being trusting. So I'm relying on you - both of you - to watch out for me or reign me in. Like you tried to do yesterday. So, thank you for that, and I'm sorry I made you worry.
-[X] Oriko gave us useful information today, but you're right that I shouldn't rely on her information to always be good. I know I like to think the best of everyone, but Oriko has been mistaken, can withhold information, or influence me towards plans she doesn't disclose.
-[X] I mean, we restrict her now because when she was free to act she took extreme and dangerous measures. And what she tried with Sayaka didn't even work.
-[X] I guess what I'm saying is, treat her as only one potential source. Doublecheck any information she gives us, while staying alert for omissions or hidden agendas.
[X] If what we said seems ok, then:
-[X] Apologize for not having the sense to just say that yesterday. Reiterate that despite all the things we take on, we'll always be her friend and ally first. Hug Mami closer so she understands she's included in that statement.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Big changes:

- Using Ugo's opener which tries to be more open with Mami. If she asks questions, fine, Homura will have to deal.
- We talk about the Feather, but in comparison to Ugo's vote, don't use it as a talking point about Oriko's trustworthiness. Rather, we ask an open question about what conclusions they can draw themselves.
- The conversation with Homura focuses on our relationship moreso than the question of Oriko. That means we lead with thanking her for looking out for us and apologizing again. That way that point doesn't get lost in the rest, if there's a problem with the rest of the message. It also sets the tone better. EDIT: I feel any version of the vote that includes this last blurb can be improved by putting it first, @Ugolino included
- Reworded things so the message about Oriko feels more naturally IC, language-wise.
- End on a team-building note, if we get that far. The emphasis is on relationship-building with Homura.

I still don't bring up the question of usefulness or trustworthiness directly. I feel actions and opinions on those issues are implied, and also that we're unwise to poke them so directly given our conversation yesterday. If Homura wants to bring them up, the door's open for that.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top