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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
Armor is fine, if it's just solid grief plates under the meguca outfit. Almost doesn't feel witchy at all.

No real need for full plate.
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SaltyWaffles said:
Whatever we choose, we should examine the Witch's Kiss more closely with our grief/magic/construct senses.
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I can get behind light grief armor and passive science.

boonerunner said:
Our entire fighting style is based on using grief. There's no way around that. We would be pointlessly hamstringing ourselves if we didn't use it. Mami and Homura know that. The problems happen if we use it without warning.
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While that example is on the extreme end of what I'm talking about, they're still uncomfortable around witch-stuff and I think that the threat level range where witchy armor is helpful is small enough to not be worth the risk. Below that range, we can get away with grief armor and, above that range, we need to actively create witchy weaponry anyway.

[x] "It's probably safe, since it feels just like a familiar and I can easily destroy those, but... no I can't say that for certain."
[x] "Right. Better to just take out the witch then."
[x] "Um... in that case, Mami, could you make sure Sayaka doesn't hurt herself?"
[x] Examine the witch kiss closely as Mami ties up Sayaka.
[x] Discreetly create light grief armor under clothes
[x] Go fight the witch as a team. This is not an ordinary witch fight. Play it cautiously. No games. Support Mami and Homura with your grief rending.
 
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boonerunner said:
Mami didn't even say that it was definitely a bad idea, she just asked if we were sure that it's safe.
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Just wanna point out that in plenty of contexts, "Do you think that's a good idea" can translate to "I think that's a bad idea but I don't want to openly question your judgement." When the person you think is making a bad call is a higher-up, for instance, or when you have massive abandonment issues that make you scared of driving the other person away.
 
Onmur said:
We actually did warn them that time. We warned them a few minutes in advance, not just before we used the stuff, but we did.
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And in this case I am suggesting that we warn them immediately before creating armor, gauntlets, wings, and harness. They can hardly be startled by it then.

Gadjo said:
I personally thing removing a WK is risk-free, honestly. This is more because Mami just doesn't need more stress right now.
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If you think that it's risk free, then the line "...You're right. It's not worth taking risks with a friend over. Thanks, Mami..." is a lie.

Personally, I think that there is a risk. I'm taking Mami's concerns seriously and while I do think that we probably have the ability to remove a Witch Kiss safely, I'm willing to let Mami persuade us not to take that risk right now. But I definitely don't want to fold just make her feel better. That would be disrespectful.
 
boonerunner said:
If you think that it's risk free, then the line "...You're right. It's not worth taking risks with a friend over. Thanks, Mami..." is a lie.

Personally, I think that there is a risk. I'm taking Mami's concerns seriously and while I do think that we probably have the ability to remove a Witch Kiss safely, I'm willing to let Mami persuade us not to take that risk right now. But I definitely don't want to fold just make her feel better. That would be disrespectful.
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Ehh. I feel like you're over thinking it. I'm going with "doing what Mami says makes Mami happy." for my personal theory at the moment.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Her thought process is very clearly being manipulated by Elly, who's also showing her memories on her glass boxes. To emphasize the point, her art-style changes from the witch's barrier to her normal rendering as soon as she realizes Sayaka is here to save her and she stops trying to justify her impending death as a moral punishment for her cowardice.
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Except we've seen witchkiss victims from Elly, and they looked and acted nothing like Madoka does. Madoka lacks the neck mark, she doesn't take actions she wouldn't (in fact, she seemed to be paralyzed, if anything), and Elly has her familiars try to kill Madoka instead of having her kill herself. Elly's manipulation seemed more along the lines of torture than actual possession. Also, witchkiss victims have been shown to be very difficult to break out, if Hitomi was any indication, which would be incongruous as hell with Madoka being broken out with "oh hey it's Sayaka."
 
[q] OK, I get that you've been there for three of my most dismal screw-ups, I get that I stomped on some very sensitive issues when I shut down earlier today, and I'm sorry for that.
[q] But do you really think I'd do something that I thought had more than the most remote possibility of hurting a friend, or that not use the utmost care when I have her life in my hands?
[q] And for all that I appear reckless, the only people I've hurt while experimenting are myself (and I accept the risks involved) and you - this afternoon.

Fine, I acknowledge their concerns about removing the witch's kiss when there is an easy and proven alternative route (slaying the witch) and I acknowledge that there is no way to be 100% certain that removing the witch's kiss won't hurt Sayaka.

That being said -- let the record show that I am highly confident that we could've unmade the witch's kiss without hurting Sayaka.

I also believe that unmaking witch's kisses would be a handy skill to have in the event that we've got kissed people outside a barrier that might hurt themselves while we're dealing with the witch. Especially if we have no ribbon/timestop backup to bind them safely in a way that won't disappear when we get 100m away from them.

And when the time comes to remove some poor sod's kiss we can even do as we did when pondering grief healing and get a precog to give us the all clear before proceeding - how's that for safety precautions?
[/end rant] [/just sayin'] [/~safety is one of many Enrichment Center goals~]

[x] Muramasa
 
Gadjo said:
Ehh. I feel like you're over thinking it. I'm going with "doing what Mami says makes Mami happy." for my personal theory at the moment.
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That's rather patronizing. Mami brought up a valid concern and we should take that concern seriously, not just dismiss it and do whatever she says just to make her happy.

Besides, it's the long-term pattern of getting into trouble that has Mami worried, not just this particular instance. If we appease Mami now but do nothing to reassure her that we're being careful when we're not around her, then this course of action will not make Mami happy in the long term.
 
boonerunner said:
That's rather patronizing. Mami brought up a valid concern and we should take that concern seriously, not just dismiss it and do whatever she says just to make her happy.

Besides, it's the long-term pattern of getting into trouble that has Mami worried, not just this particular instance. If we appease Mami now but do nothing to reassure her that we're being careful when we're not around her, then this course of action will not make Mami happy in the long term.
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I just feel like trying to debate her on it right now will make her feel terrible. She'll go into "I've contradicted Sabrina abort abort" mode. Talking to her about it later would probably be fine, but at the present moment I believe it would be best to just do it her way.
 
Gadjo said:
I just feel like trying to debate her on it right now will make her feel terrible. She'll go into "I've contradicted Sabrina abort abort" mode. Talking to her about it later would probably be fine, but at the present moment I believe it would be best to just do it her way.
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Mami raised a concern. The respectful thing to do would be to acknowledge that the concern is valid. It is because I consider Mami's concern to be valid that I want to explain our actions, not because I want to get into some debate with her.

Do you think that Mami wants us to agree with her because we're taking pity on her because she's weak? Or do you think that maybe she would prefer that we listened to her advice on its own merits?
 
boonerunner said:
Do you think that Mami wants us to agree with her because we're taking pity on her because she's weak? Or do you think that maybe she would prefer that we listened to her advice on its own merits?
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Don't really feel just dropping it is calling her weak. It seems like a perfectly normal, courteous thing to do right now when she's in such a bad headspace.
 
boonerunner said:
Mami raised a concern. The respectful thing to do would be to acknowledge that the concern is valid. It is because I consider Mami's concern to be valid that I want to explain our actions, not because I want to get into some debate with her.

Do you think that Mami wants us to agree with her because we're taking pity on her because she's weak? Or do you think that maybe she would prefer that we listened to her advice on its own merits?
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If you're worried she might think we're pitying her, we could acknowledge the point as both Homura's and Mami's. They're both telling us to not do this, so we're not.
 
landcollector said:
I do not think she is in the right mindset to distinguish between the two just now.
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She ought to be able to tell the difference between argumentation and explanation pretty easily since my vote says "You're right" and then follows her advice and doesn't try to remove the Kiss.

Gadjo said:
Don't really feel just dropping it is calling her weak. It seems like a perfectly normal, courteous thing to do right now when she's in such a bad headspace.
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"bad headspace" is the same thing as "weak". It's temporary, but from a social/emotional perspective, Mami is weak right now. But the best way to encourage her to be stronger is to respect her when she does assert herself (like she just did) rather than trying to appease her. The actions might be the same (we wouldn't remove the Kiss in either case), but the attitudes are very different.

Onmur said:
If you're worried she might think we're pitying her, we could acknowledge the point as both Homura's and Mami's. They're both telling us to not do this, so we're not.
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Homura is simply saying that it isn't necessary for us to cure Sayaka, since the Witch Kiss will fade when the Witch dies. That's a very important point (it's the only reason we would consider not trying to cure Sayaka in the first place), but it's Mami's concern that is the deciding factor here.
 
Mister Bad Guy said:
Except we've seen witchkiss victims from Elly, and they looked and acted nothing like Madoka does. Madoka lacks the neck mark, she doesn't take actions she wouldn't (in fact, she seemed to be paralyzed, if anything), and Elly has her familiars try to kill Madoka instead of having her kill herself. Elly's manipulation seemed more along the lines of torture than actual possession. Also, witchkiss victims have been shown to be very difficult to break out, if Hitomi was any indication, which would be incongruous as hell with Madoka being broken out with "oh hey it's Sayaka."
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Technically speaking, we've never seen a confirmed Witch Kiss in the moment it was applied. It might be a gradual thing Madoka or first-timeline Homura was undergoing before their rescue.

There's also Homura's barrier, which is subject to all sorts of exceptions and such, but if rewriting someone's entire lifetime of memories isn't the work of a Witch's Kiss I don't know what the fuck is.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Technically speaking, we've never seen a confirmed Witch Kiss in the moment it was applied. It might be a gradual thing Madoka or first-timeline Homura was undergoing before their rescue.

There's also Homura's barrier, which is subject to all sorts of exceptions and such, but if rewriting someone's entire lifetime of memories isn't the work of a Witch's Kiss I don't know what the fuck is.
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Ehhhh the biggest exceptions there are too significant to make that useful.
A: Homucifer is not a witch.
B: There are no marks on their necks.
 
I uh, meant Homulilly, not Homucifer.

As for the marks on the neck, it's possible Homura being our viewpoint character just kept them from being visible, or that the Witch Kiss insignia on the neck thing isn't a hard rule, or that it ceases being visible when someone is inside the barrier (which would be consistent with all possible data-points).
 
[x] Whatever is winning when votes are counted
-[x] Armor everyone up. Full body armor, including the head.

I mean, even if the popular vote doesn't end up doing 180° from previous vote and folding over Mami like a wet sponge, I still want to armor up. The in-update thoughts about deadly tripwire to a bomb are well-merited.

And if we go in witch barrier possibly transplanted by enemy action? Armor becomes even more important.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Technically speaking, we've never seen a confirmed Witch Kiss in the moment it was applied. It might be a gradual thing Madoka or first-timeline Homura was undergoing before their rescue.

There's also Homura's barrier, which is subject to all sorts of exceptions and such, but if rewriting someone's entire lifetime of memories isn't the work of a Witch's Kiss I don't know what the fuck is.
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Aura, there are all of two instances in canon where people were definitely witchkissed. The circumstances of these witch kisses were completely identical (mark on the neck, lowered physical mobility, direct possession, attempts to kill self through mundane methods, cannot be broken out except by the death of the witch in question). You seem to be lumping every instance where a witch showed the ability to affect someone mentally as a witch's kiss, regardless of how little resemblance they bear to these two completely identical events, and chalking it up to variance that, by our sample size, simply doesn't exist.

Also: Witch's kisses never once showed anything like the ability Homulily displays.
 
Mister Bad Guy said:
Aura, there are all of two instances in canon where people were definitely witchkissed. The circumstances of these witch kisses were completely identical (mark on the neck, lowered physical mobility, direct possession, attempts to kill self through mundane methods, cannot be broken out except by the death of the witch in question). You seem to be lumping every instance where a witch showed the ability to affect someone mentally as a witch's kiss, regardless of how little resemblance they bear to these two completely identical events, and chalking it up to variance that, by our sample size, simply doesn't exist.

Also: Witch's kisses never once showed anything like the ability Homulily displays.
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I admit it, I am lumping basically all mind-control into basically being a Witch's Kiss. It's a possibility so it should be explored instead of dismissed out of hand, and I'd rather be cautious of it than regret not doing so.

As for the second...Witches never had a motive for mind control besides 'lol fuckin kill urself" before Homulilly. Like, Sayaka straight up says so.
 
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