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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Gadjo said:
I just feel like trying to debate her on it right now will make her feel terrible. She'll go into "I've contradicted Sabrina abort abort" mode. Talking to her about it later would probably be fine, but at the present moment I believe it would be best to just do it her way.
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boonerunner said:
Mami raised a concern. The respectful thing to do would be to acknowledge that the concern is valid. It is because I consider Mami's concern to be valid that I want to explain our actions, not because I want to get into some debate with her.

Do you think that Mami wants us to agree with her because we're taking pity on her because she's weak? Or do you think that maybe she would prefer that we listened to her advice on its own merits?
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...how about we just take the logical and effective compromise of acknowledging Mami's concern as valid while assuring her that it is probably harmless, but that considering the circumstances, doing it the conventional way is probably best for everyone right now?

Like, acknowledge her concern and do what makes Mami and Homura feel better because doing something the way that is known to work safely is a good idea when we have all the time we need (and, not that we'd mention it, they're both so on-edge right now that placating them is more important here).

Solves both issues at once.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
...how about we just take the logical and effective compromise of acknowledging Mami's concern as valid while assuring her that it is probably harmless, but that considering the circumstances, doing it the conventional way is probably best for everyone right now?

Like, acknowledge her concern and do what makes Mami and Homura feel better because doing something the way that is known to work safely is a good idea when we have all the time we need (and, not that we'd mention it, they're both so on-edge right now that placating them is more important here).

Solves both issues at once.
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That's basically what my vote does:
boonerunner said:
[x] Describe what what the Witch Kiss feels like to your senses.
[x] Describe how you were planning on removing it and how this would be different from the experiment with the Chicken Witch's Familiar.
[x] Say that you had considered there to be some risk, but had considered it worthwhile. But now, Mami's concern has made you reconsider.
[x] Ask if they know of any lingering effects that can result from a Witch Kiss.
[x] Ask if we should tie Sayaka down so that she doesn't hurt herself.
[x] Armor up (warn first - then make Armor, Gauntlets, Wings, Harness), and go fight the witch as a team. This is not an ordinary witch fight. Play it cautiously. No games. Support Mami and Homura with your grief rending.
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Muramasa's is kind of similar, but doesn't actually explain why we think it would be harmless (which is the part that would reassure Mami in the long run):
Muramasa said:
[x] "It's probably safe but... no I can't say that for certain."
[x] "Right. Better to just take out the witch then."
[x] Um... in that case, Mami, could you make sure Sayaka doesn't hurt herself?"
[x] Go fight the witch as a team. This is not an ordinary witch fight. Play it cautiously. No games. Support Mami and Homura with your grief rending.
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Muramasa's vote also says "This is not an ordinary witch fight. Play it cautiously. No games." but doesn't actually have Sabrina use any of the combat enhancers that she's come up with (not even the armor), which seems a bit contradictory.
 
The Mura vote covers everything we need to, has us respond to Mami's concern in a way that shows we respect her, and handles combat competently.

The boone vote fails to treat Mami and Homura as partners, is patronizing and manages to simultaneously state the obvious (wings) and goes for strange details that don't actually help. I mean the first half is basically going 'I don't want to do this but I'm doing it to indulge you because I feel like being nice to you', combined with useless questions.

I can predict the result- Mami'll instantly backpedal and be terrified of contradicting Sabrina. Not what we want. Also, I don't get the reasoning for the changes to the combat portion.

I mean, really, gauntlet and harness? What on earth are those supposed to do that a quick Dissoluzione bianca won't? It's pretty pointless.

Updating my vote from the original version.

[x] Muramasa
 
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Wearing armor, gauntlets, wings (what for?), and the cqc enhancement harness sort of implies that we will not be grief rending the shit out of anything we come across, and not having a few dozen orbiting grief shields... if not, in the first place, going inside timestop on entering, skipping the entire labyrinth, and stomping the witch before it can even say 'Caw Caw!'
 
There is the possibility that Elsa Maria is just Elsa Maria. Wouldn't that be a thing?

Slight Shadowruns said:
Let's suppose Elsa Maria got buffed up by Feathers, and is super strong.

If we beat her, we get the feeling we won this round, we accomplished something and hell, Homura might believe Feathers is an actual threat.

Pros for Feathers: This is a distraction, and it's doing something else somewhere and nobody, not even Oriko is picking up on it. (Con: It risks us noticing Feathers can act without a trace in the future.)

Cons for Feathers: Homura might believe about Feathers (Pro: +Stress)

So, if Elsa Maria got buffed up, it should be a strong enough buff to oppose our entire team, even with the fact that we start in timestop. Then this would be an actual Boss Fight, and Feathers believes it's got a chance at killing/permanently maiming/cursing at least one of us.


Let's suppose that doesn't happen. Nothing new about the Witch, weird location and actions aside. We roflstomp, we go back home feeling we're missing something.

Pros for Feathers: [Homura's patience straining]
+ Paranoia
.In the case that Feathers actions are heavily restrained, inducing paranoia and stress might be good enough. If it can't kill us just yet, there's no reason to try.

Cons for Feathers: Can't think of any?
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Sorry, nothing but very random guesswork here.

I wonder if Homura's still up for that trip...
 
Ugolino said:
I mean, really, gauntlet and harness? What on earth are those supposed to do that a quick Dissoluzione bianca won't? It's pretty pointless.
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Gauntlets: enhance magic. This is generally useful across the board. In particular, it should let us use Dissoluzione Bianca better.
Harness: enhances melee combat abilities, particularly dodging. The benefit should be obvious.
 
boonerunner said:
Gauntlets: enhance magic. This is generally useful across the board. In particular, it should let us use Dissoluzione Bianca better.
Harness: enhances melee combat abilities, particularly dodging. The benefit should be obvious.
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No more witchy stuff until Mami feels better. We laugh about the 'Sabrina is a witch' jokes, but Mami was actually worried earlier. Let's not feed those worries.

If Elsa Maria proves dangerous, we can armor up quickly enough.


... I wonder why does witchy stuff feel witchy to us, while the Barrier doesn't. Isn't the Barrier eitchy stuff also? Maybe we can make our non-Barrier witchy stuff not feel witchy to us (though everybody else would still feel it)?
 
Onmur said:
No more witchy stuff until Mami feels better. We laugh about the 'Sabrina is a witch' jokes, but Mami was actually worried earlier. Let's not feed those worries.

If Elsa Maria proves dangerous, we can armor up quickly enough.


... I wonder why does witchy stuff feel witchy to us, while the Barrier doesn't. Isn't the Barrier eitchy stuff also? Maybe we can make our non-Barrier witchy stuff not feel witchy to us (though everybody else would still feel it)?
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Barrier's are basically extensions /representations of the owner's mindscape, right? (*pokes at Octavia's concert hall*) It makes sense that Sabrina wouldn't detect anything weird - there's literally nothing there but herself.
 
It's only the context of the situation that makes Elsa Maria a witch to be more cautious with. Elsa Maria herself, is notable only because the witch is normally an instrument of Sayaka's downfall. Not because the witch itself is anymore difficult to face than any other run of the mill witch. So no I don't see the justification for the combat enhancers for any reason other then being over prepared for the sake of being over prepared.

The armor complaint is somewhat more valid, though not enough in which I feel it needs a last minute change in the vote.
 
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Onmur said:
I wonder why does witchy stuff feel witchy to us, while the Barrier doesn't. Isn't the Barrier witchy stuff also? Maybe we can make our non-Barrier witchy stuff not feel witchy to us (though everybody else would still feel it)?
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The barrier doesn't feel wrong to us, but the grief replica of Mitakihara does feel witchy. Here:
Firnagzen said:
Well, a little less time than you'd expected for experimenting, then, you muse as you step back into the Barrier.

Interestingly, you don't feel the same... nauseating sense of wrongness a normal Witch Barrier gives you. Probably because it's your Barrier. You somehow doubt that that'd be the case for your fellow puella magi, though.
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Firnagzen said:
Moving gently, you guide her over to the sofa and sit down. It's an exact replica of the one in Mami's apartment, right down to the little worn patch on the right side.

It also sings the constant song of Witch, Witch, Witch.
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Edit: It doesn't necessarily say whether or not the Barrier feels witchy or if the Grief replica of Mitakihara feels wrong.

@Firnagzen would you mind clarifying this? Do Sabrina's witchy constructs feel wrong to her, or just witchy? Did the Grief replica of Mitakihara feel any different than normal constructs that Sabrina creates? When Sabrina first entered a Barrier, she blanked out for a bit because it felt so wrong. Was that because it was the first time she had been exposed to anything witchy, or does entering a Barrier feel even more wrong than the witchstuff inside it?
 
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boonerunner said:
When Sabrina first entered a Barrier, she blanked out for a bit because it felt so wrong. Was that because it was the first time she had been exposed to anything witchy, or does entering a Barrier feel even more wrong than the witchstuff inside it?
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That's likely because the existance of a Witch's Barrier runs contrary to Sabrina's wish. ALL the grief is Sabrina's. But well, here there's a little World of grief that... isn't.
 
So Sabrina turned into the goddess of grief because of her wish, and she spots a bounded-off area beyond her influence, and its occupant goes apeshit and tries to usurp her when Sabrina tries to put it out of its misery?


...On another topic: Does Barrier!Stuff feel different to a meguca's senses compared to what an actual Witch gives off? Like is it more intense?
 
boonerunner said:
@Firnagzen would you mind clarifying this? Do Sabrina's witchy constructs feel wrong to her, or just witchy? Did the Grief replica of Mitakihara feel any different than normal constructs that Sabrina creates? When Sabrina first entered a Barrier, she blanked out for a bit because it felt so wrong. Was that because it was the first time she had been exposed to anything witchy, or does entering a Barrier feel even more wrong than the witchstuff inside it?
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In order, no, I don't mind, no, just witchy, no, no different, yes.

And apologies, everyone, I don't think I'll be updating tonight.
 
[X] Muramasa

Maybe just in a shell around our soul gem? That's the only thing that matters anyway.
 
chocolote12 said:
Maybe just in a shell around our soul gem? That's the only thing that matters anyway.
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It would still be incredibly unpleasant to be de-limbed or worse during a fight. Not to mention the trauma to Mami if we got seriously injured, never mind that our soul gem is all that's needed to keep us alive...
 
MrLZRS said:
Wait... Votes are locked!?
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Are they ever? To my perception, Firn mostly just rolls out with updates when votes have quieted.
Kai Merah said:
It would still be incredibly unpleasant to be de-limbed or worse during a fight. Not to mention the trauma to Mami if we got seriously injured, never mind that our soul gem is all that's needed to keep us alive...
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Not to mention the setback to us if Mami or, feathers forbid, Homura gets killed.
Muramasa said:
Anyway I don't personally have any objections to raw grief armor. If enough people want it in the vote, I'll add it in.
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Perhaps I can be voting for it harder than I already am voting for it by supporting an alternative with it in it? :p

[x] boonerunner
 
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Onmur said:
That's likely because the existence of a Witch's Barrier runs contrary to Sabrina's wish. ALL the grief is Sabrina's. But well, here there's a little World of grief that... isn't.
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I suspect that this is the case. As Firnagzen said, it's only grief/witchstuff that we don't control which feels wrong to Sabrina. Sabrina is hyper-sensitive to grief due to the nature of her powers. Other magical girls can detect grief (if it's close enough), but I suspect that other girls' reactions to our grief/witchstuff isn't nearly as bad as we have been worried about - that Sabrina's witchy stuff doesn't feel wrong to other people in the same way that a Witch's grief feels wrong to Sabrina.

Here was Mami's reaction to the very first time we controlled grief:
Firnagzen said:
Your focus returns to the little mass of Grief floating above your left hand. It's... you know that you can reshape it as you like, and it's liquid, solid, or gas, as you like. You curl your fingers, and it warps through various simple shapes: sphere, pyramid, cube. Your other hand comes up, and the Grief reshapes itself into a little statuette of Kyuubey.

Mami chuckles. "That's quite a good rendition, Sabrina."
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We ferry people around on a grief carpet pretty regularly, and no one has ever complained that the grief feels uncomfortable.

Here's what happened when we used witchstuff in combat:
Firnagzen said:
You concentrate on Grief, and a baleful red beam -disintegration!- licks out from your pointing finger, lighting up as Witch!

Mami stumbles, golden eyes flickering across to you, and the spinning ring of muskets judder to a halt, shots going wild. Homura whirls on the spot, pivoting on a foot and submachine gun rising for a moment before amethyst eyes find you.

Damn.
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In this case it was the surprise that caused the problem. Mami and Homura were focused on fighting the witch, and Sabrina very suddenly felt like a witch. They probably thought (for a second) that Sabrina was under attack.

Will it upset Mami if we create witchy stuff? Perhaps. But that's not because of what it feels like but rather because Mami is worried that Sabrina will hurt herself due to being insufficiently cautious while experimenting and witchy feeling grief reminds her of that worry. Our attempt to remove the Witch Kiss (while apparently not considering the dangers) bothered her much more.
 
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