how do we know? in the future she checked, we didn't try to force her soul's magic to attach to her newly formed grief limb, did we? We just attached a limb to her meat puppet.

You can't control the limb without the soul gem threads connecting to it. That was shown when Sabrina's hand went numb attempting to will magic into Hildegarde in her very first attempt.


edit: reread. Hildegarde was not a clear seed at the time but half emptied.

You look at it. It's... quiescent, is really the best word for it, doing nothing very much in particular, the levels of Grief unchanging. You try poking a little Grief at it, just a tiny amount. Nothing unusual happens - the Grief simply gets sucked in.

You still have no real idea how to channel magic, as opposed to simply exerting your will on Grief - that comes naturally to you, like moving another arm. Still, maybe if you try to tweak a little of the magic in your body...

You focus on your hand and twist with your will... and you yelp as your hand goes completely dead, all feeling leaving it. Your hand droops on the end of your arm as you flail it about wildly. You hastily let go, and feeling returns to your hand in a rush of pins and needles.
 
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1. We don't know that. And if you read the sources, you'll find that reconnecting a gem revives the girl, but that in the cases where someone fell unconscious without gem disconnection a different procedure was used, which is what I'm referring to. In any event, I'm not looking for this to succeed so much as learning from the failure to see if we can adapt this magic to our purposes.
I don't recall anyone reviving someone from unconsciousness: would you mind pointing me to the relevant section?

2. I'm willing to try even if it's cruel. Plus, in the case that magical sustainability is what lets grief remain formed, it's possible that by connecting a soul to a body with magic, the soul's own magic will sustain the body, much like a witch's magic sustains its primary body.
This is possible, but I'd personally prefer that we try full-body-healing first, so I do see that as a prerequisite of dewitching.

Pumping healing magic is literally already a primary component of my proposed attempts.
My apologies, I missed that.

I want to ask Mami how to do space expansion. We will make more progress under her supervision than alone. So this exclusion is a matter of prioritizing.
That is a fair point (collaborative experimentation would probably be more fruitful), but we do have enough time to ask Mami for a few basic pointers (in person, or using telepathy) in order to try it out on our own. That's what we have already been doing with roof-hopping and enchantment, but it might turn out that space-manipulation is instinctively easy. And as far as prioritization goes, this research may not have a high priority, but it does have a high urgency, since we are currently plagued with a grief storage issue. We could hand off the excess grief to Kyuubey, but I would prefer to find a way to store it instead.

We don't have a second or third seed, or that would be included.
It would be easy enough to borrow two seeds for this purpose, as long as we let Mami know what we would be doing with them. Relying on Mami to help us in this way would be good for her.
 
If we want our magic to work outside our normal Soul range, we just need to learn to split our soul. Easy game. :p

if we could do that, would we be more like a Witch? Could make familiars, maybe.


Speaking about familiars,
There's something that might be a Witch's core, albeit one so minute, so fractional that it's nearly imperceptible. It'd... be fair to say that this is a nascent Witch, which, well, it is. It feels... incomplete, incredibly so, something essential to it missing.
Last time I read this, I though the missing part was 'Soul'. Maybe it's 'Magic'? KB contracts girls because they're the most efficient; familiars need to kill (5 or 10) people in order to grow into full fledged witches; one Meguca is enough to make one Witch.

We haven't done the 'familiar feeding' experiment, right? Feed them grief/magic?
 
You can't control the limb without the soul gem threads connecting to it. That was shown when Sabrina's hand went numb attempting to will magic into Hildegarde in her very first attempt.


edit: reread. Hildegarde was not a clear seed at the time but half emptied.

Plausible. My guess as to what happens in healing rod future then, is that both Oriko and us have threads of magic attached to the grief arm; hers for control, ours for maintenance of form. Since bodies don't require magical maintenance such effects would not be part of the standard meat puppeting package. But that doesnt mean it's not possible to create them, just beyond instinctive magic.

I'll note that in the section you quoted, we didn't manage to get as far as pushing magic to Hildeseed, at least not observably. Sabrina's thought process went from 'what magic can I do' to body control to trying to repurpose her own body control.

We did, at one time, believe we could exert some kind of control over someone else's body control magic (when we were healing Oriko's body, it was a vote option). Even if the results would be temporary it's still worth trying. Furthermore, magical control over a body made of grief is fundamentally similar to what witches already do, much more so than a body made of biological matter. So it seems to me that demonstrated examples of souls in grief seeds controlling and maintaining bodies made of grief exist.
 
Just echoing that I'm with SWB on that we should at least try; even if it is cruel to that one particular girl it is more cruel to put off testing for all other existing girls.

Also, because I have my doubts since Homura "being unable to dewitch", while healing is something she is quite decent at.

We could just tip them off about the IG empath.
I'm not sure how useful that power even is.

"Yup, it is catatonia/loneliness/determination" (For Akiko/Mami/Homura)

Well, there are probably some useful related powers....But empathy, as I understand it....It's kinda like asking Oriko about future threats. There may be some info we missed, but it is not exactly a guarantee.
 
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This occured when we revived Oriko for interrogation. We also taught Oriko the same trick and she used it to revive Kirika right afterwards.
The occasions you mention are ones where a soul gem was reconnected to a body; that kind of magic isn't useful unless there is an actual body to connect the soul gem/grief seed to. SWB said that there was some sort of special magic that was used on occasion to revive an unconscious girl who was still connected to her soul gem (a special case of healing magic, I guess?) Those are the occasions that I can't remember seeing.

Speaking about familiars,

Last time I read this, I though the missing part was 'Soul'. Maybe it's 'Magic'? KB contracts girls because they're the most efficient; familiars need to kill (5 or 10) people in order to grow into full fledged witches; one Meguca is enough to make one Witch.

We haven't done the 'familiar feeding' experiment, right? Feed them grief/magic?
We have not yet tried whether it is possible to farm familiars into witches by feeding them magic in order to obtain grief seeds, no. We have yet to come across any lone familiars to test that on, although I suppose we could try grabbing one of the constructs from within a witch's barrier and trying to keep it alive after the witch is dead.

The fact that we have seen a lot of witches, but we have not seen any lone familiars (and PMMM just showed one), is what leads me to believe that most witches are formed directly from meguca rather than being grown from familiars.
 
The occasions you mention are ones where a soul gem was reconnected to a body; that kind of magic isn't useful unless there is an actual body to connect the soul gem/grief seed to. SWB said that there was some sort of special magic that was used on occasion to revive an unconscious girl who was still connected to her soul gem (a special case of healing magic, I guess?) Those are the occasions that I can't remember seeing.
Oriko revived Kirika from unconciousness (and probably cured her from a concussion); Kirika was still connected to her gem, since it never left her range.
"Go on," you mutter, and let the thread spool out from the reel as Oriko glides over to Kirika. A touch brings Kirika into the timestop, colour blossoming across the berserker's body, and Oriko gently turns her over. "Go ahead and wake her up, I'll cleanse as necessary," you add. You don't exactly trust Kirika not to eviscerate you as soon as she wakes up.

Oriko looks questioningly at you.

"It's something all magical girls can do," you sigh. "Just not very efficiently. Either way, search your feelings, you kno-" you break off, and start again. "Search your instincts; you should know how to do it."

The seer nods resolutely, and turns back to Kirika. A moment later, she holds her hand against the side of Kirika's head, glimmering light shining from between her fingers in fitful little stutters. You wince - at a guess, you gave Kirika a concussion.

The fact that we have seen a lot of witches, but we have not seen any lone familiars (and PMMM just showed one), is what leads me to believe that most witches are formed directly from meguca rather than being grown from familiars.
I think somebody in this thread recently pointed out that Urobuchi(?) said in an interview that most Witches come from familiars, after being asked about the disparity in Witch/meguca numbers. I can't source this, though.
 
I think that we have a good idea what happened to Kato. We know Kato leaves, Akiko goes after her, and Akiko comes back with an obsession to gather Grief Seeds. Likely scenario: Kato witched out in front of Akiko, and Akiko killed her.
Doesn't exactly jive with Akiko blaming the IG for Kato's death, though.

We don't need to do this. We don't owe Sendai anything, and Akiko walking around would make her (many, many) victims at least as unhappy as Akiko not walking around makes Sendai.
On the offchance that she does recover, I'm sure we can manage the situation, but I see no compelling reason to bring this outcome about.
My primary reason for wanting Akiko fixed doesn't actually have anything with the rest of her group. She's a meguca, she has a problem, Sabrina has one kind of reaction to that.

I'm aware she's responsible for extortion and MWI, but we've forgiven meguca for dark deeds before. Kyouko farms familiars, Homura's performed preemptive executions on Oriko, and I don't think I need to list the shit O&K have got up to. Sabrina has historically been cool with that to a degree that baffles and occasionally disturbs our allies. Akiko's different in that she's an OC so we only get hints and bits of her tragic backstory (dead gillfrond) and sympathetic elements (good leader) after however many updates of her acting like an irrational asshole and frustrating our attempts at peace, but I'm not convinced she's so much worse than characters we've already forgiven that our policy on her should 180 from "hi I walked out of a light and fluffy magical girl show how may I love you today" to "fuck her."

Yeah, killing in general is extremely problematic and not a bridge we should cross without an excellent reason and no other options.

"Akiko's a nutcase" isn't good enough there, if only for the PR disaster. :p
And there's the question of who does the honors. Is Limpet-chan, Devil-chan, or Brain-Damage-chan the most appropriate person to execute someone for being a nutcase? Maybe we should contract out to those paragons of well-considered and rational decision-making, Oriko and Kirika. :V
 
More like Kyubey can casually mention that we're dangerous and killed someone in cold blood to every new meguca from now to the end of time and it'd be factually accurate.
As of now Kyuubey can truthfully say that we steal the souls of our enemies. Sure, we gave them back afterwards, but that still sounds bad. Leaving someone in catatonia is comparatively benign on the horrible-half-truth-ometer.
 
Oriko revived Kirika from unconciousness (and probably cured her from a concussion); Kirika was still connected to her gem, since it never left her range.
We had just picked up Kirika's gem and walked over to Oriko with it, leaving Kirika's body outside of timestop. I'm not positive that taking a soul gem into timestop without the body counts as enough distance to separate them, but I suspect that it does. At any rate, this situation was either about connecting a soul gem back to a body or about healing a concussion (or both), so it doesn't look like there would be anything about the magic used there which would make it any different from pumping normal healing magic into the seed.

I think somebody in this thread recently pointed out that Urobuchi(?) said in an interview that most Witches come from familiars, after being asked about the disparity in Witch/meguca numbers. I can't source this, though.
Some such interview was mentioned, but no sources were given, and an Internet search turned up nothing, so I don't find it very helpful for a discussion. If anyone can find it, then I'd be willing to consider it, otherwise I'm going to continue assuming that most witches are formed by meguca who despaired rather than by familiars who ate people (as is indicated by the large number of witches we have seen compared to the small number of familiars).
 
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It's little things like this though that gives me hope, that she's getting better. Little bit by little bit.
Sorry for the delayed response/off-topic comment of sorts, but this is worth emphasizing again. Mami is making steady, if slow progress, which is everything we can hope for. Any improvements to our methodology for helping Mami should be small, subtle, and gradual, if we make any: the current methodology is working quite well. The change in sleeping arrangements was a good example of this: Mami was already sleeping up against Sabrina for a while not, either consciously or not, and just casually stating that they should just make it official since they already do it anyway is the kind of small, gradual change that can work. And Mami will definitely benefit from that change, too, as it removes a lot of the doubt about whether or not she's imposing on Sabrina or crossing boundaries that Sabrina isn't comfortable with--Sabrina explicitly acknowledging that she's both fine with it and would rather just make the practice a mutual habit puts a lot of fears at ease.

Slow, steady healing is safer and healthier in psychological issues (unless it's a matter of actual danger or sheer desperation because of how bad the situation is, but Mami is no longer at risk of that anyway).
 
:V
Let`s see, they`re heroically good heroes of justice, to the point of stupidity. They`re kinda stubborn and arrogant at times, but only ever have the best intentions. Get along well with Mami and Madoka, and are currently having issues with Homura
[q]Remember ethat you're Sayaka from the future


 
"Sabrina, what are you doing?" Homura asked with a rather unamused look on her face.

"Oh hi mom, not much really just a science project," Sabrina replied, continuing with her work.

Homura turned to her maybe-sorta- daughter with an incredulous look on her face. "This is a science project? What's the point?"

"I wanted to see which version of Sayaka was best, so I made a bunch of grief constructs based on what you told me about the other Sayakas," Sabrina said turning to face Homura, "What? Everyone needs a hobby. Mine just happens to be science! Now we should probably stand back, I'm going to animate them."

When the mother-daughter duo walk out of the warehouse, Sabrina began a short countdown. After a brief moment of silence one voice broke through the calm air.

"THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!"
 
Nah, Sayaka's too Heroic Good to condemn other Sayaka's for the sin of not being The One.

Every Sayaka would tolerate all the other Sayakas and their thinking they're the real one. Silly other Sayakas.
 
We need to make a grief construct version of SQ!Sayaka at some point.

[Q] ID problem
-[Q] Armor up
-[Q] Wave Rend/Rending Blade until problem is no longer problematic. Boost as needed.
 
Our Benefactor pt. 2
You purse your lips for a moment, considering. In the end, you did ask to meet Megane first, so it'd be kind of rude to push that back, you figure. "Yep, that's acceptable," you say.

Sayaka motions up the road, looking questioningly at you. You nod, and fall into step, the five of you heading in to school at a leisurely stroll under the luxurious, shady canopy. "Though come to that... Where would you prefer to meet?" you ask.

"There is a cafe near my school," Megane suggests.

"Right, I think I know it. Open air, blue coloured signboard? Next to a laundry?" you ask. You'd passed over it when you were checking Yokosuka Middle School, you think.

"That's the one," Megane confirms.

"Excellent," you say. You glance along your small group of friends - Mami and Sayaka are talking... about school clubs, judging from the snatches of converation, and Madoka's talking to Homura. "By the way, Miss Ono, since you're a solo magical girl, there's a trick I'm not sure you know about. Would you mind lifting your phone from your ear for a moment?"

"Very well...?" the girl's voice fades out as she complies.

"We can talk to each other like this," you say telepathically to Megane.

"What? Is this like how Kyuubey talks?" You can hear her voice, distant and tinny, from her phone.

"It is, Miss Ono," you say. "All magical girls should be capable of telepathy. Try it."

"Hello?" her voice sounds in your head. "Can you hear me?"

"Yes, I can," you answer. "Right, so... You can contact anybody who Kyuubey hooked up to telepathy, and you need to know who they are to do so. A bit like a phone network, I guess, you need to know who you want to contact and they need to have a phone, too."

"Ah. So I can contact you and Tomoe Mami?" she asks.

"Yup," you confirm. Sayaka's giving you a questioning look, which... you're holding the phone to your head, in total silence. Probably does look odd. You answer Sayaka with a poke to the side of your head. Telepathy. The bleunette makes a confused face and shrugs. You shrug back at her. "Last thing. Please do hold onto that Grief Seed? I can refresh it when we meet again."

"Alright," Megane says.

"Right, then. See you after school," you say. You end the phone call, nodding in satisfaction. The motion catches Mami's eye, and she breaks off her conversation with Sayaka and Madoka, looking to you and smiling. "Did that go well?"

"Yep," you say. Simultaneously, you pulse a telepathic message to her. "One thing, though... We did agree to meet Miss Ono after school today."

"I remember," Mami says. "Ah, Sayaka's friend..."

"Yeah," you say as the five of you stop at the traffic light, waiting for the light to change, joined by a small crowd of chattering students, all dressed in the familiar uniform of Mitakihara Middle School, some casting curious looks at you. "I... Well, Miss Ono did come first, so..."

"I agree," Mami says, shooting you a quick smile. The light turns, and you cross the road along with the rest of the crowd.

"Hm, how long do you think it'll take for us to, ah, orientate Miss Ono?" you ask.

"Well... She's new, but I think she's killed at least one or two Witches before?" Mami says. "Not too long, I suppose, we just need to explain our patrolling habits and so on?"

"Hmm," you say. "Earmark it for half an hour, and then we can get to Kyousuke?"

"Sounds right," Mami agrees.

"Hey... I need to wait for Hitomi," Sayaka says, stopping at the opposite side of the street.

"I'll wait with you!" Madoka says.

"So will we," Mami says, shooting you a look. You nod, and a quick smile flashes across her face.

Homura ghosts behind Madoka silently, amethyst eyes scanning the street.

"Ah, Homura!" Madoka says. "Are you OK?"

"I'm fine," Homura says, voice quiet.

Madoka glances at her, soft face wrinkled in a worried expression.

Homura sighs almost imperceptibly. "Really, I am."

"O-OK," Madoka says. Pink eyes flicker over to you, worried frown still framing her eyes. The low purr of a car pulling up distracts her, though, as Hitomi's car stops at the kerb. Sayaka steps forward, helping the verdette out of the car.

Hitomi's father nods approvingly, bidding Hitomi a goodbye before driving off. Hitomi, on the other hand, sighs instead, trying to take her schoolbag back from Sayaka. The bleunette stubbornly holds on to the bag, a mulish expression on her face, and Hitomi gives up a moment later.

Finally, Hitomi looks around, smiling faintly. "Good morning, everyone," she offers. "Shall we head to school?"

"Let's go!" Madoka says.

You soon find yourself bidding a farewell to everyone at the schoolgates, the teacher on duty fixing you with a gimlet stare. Mami stops, turning to you as the others go ahead. You smile at her. "I'll see you after school, OK?"

Mami nods, trying to smile. "I... alright."

You pull her into a hug. "And there's always this, right?"

She nods against you. "Yes. It's not the same, but... yes."

"OK," you say, stepping back, smiling warmly at her. "See you after school!"

"See you, Sabrina," Mami says, the edges softening from her smile, becoming more natural. She walks into the school, turning to glance back at you. You raise your hand in a wave, and you can see her smile once more before disappearing into the school building.

You chuff out a breath, smile fading. Well. Time for... everything else, then. You turn, walking away from the school and finding a convenient alley. You're soon winging over Mitakihara, an angel flying on corrupted wings, if you're in a poetic mood. Heh. You chuckle to yourself.

Time to check in with the two groups back in Sendai, you muse as you bank along a thermal. Really, you don't need to, but the sensation of lift under your wings is kind of nice. "Hello, Miss Mori?" You reach out telepathically.

"Miss Sabrina?" the healer's voice replies to you almost immediately.

"Good morning!" you say cheerfully.

"Good morning," Rin allows. "How are you?"

"Doing good," you say. "What about you? Is everyone alright over there?"

"Ah. Yes, no problems," Rin replies, before sighing. "No new problems."

You wince. "No change in Akiko?" You... you don't really regret going after Akiko, not really, but you do regret what happened to her, you guess.

Another telepathic sigh from the healer. "None."

"Ah. No trouble with the University group? Or any independents?" you ask.

"No, we've been mostly keeping to ourselves," Rin says.

"OK, then," you say. "I should be dropping by sometime to refresh the Grief Seeds. When would be best?"

"Maybe... this weekend?" Rin suggests.

"Right, noted," you say. "No promises yet, but... We'll figure out exactly when closer in?"

"That's fine," Rin replies.

"Alright. Later, then," you say, and suddenly grin to yourself midflight. "Say hi to Sakura for me." You can imagine the teleporter's reaction already.

"See you this weekend," the healer agrees.

You swoop through the air, hair blown across your face by the wind of your flight. Absently, you check on the masses of Grief still following you around. A huge mass of spheres, spread out across the sky, trail you at a distance.

Alright, then. Next up... "Hello, Miss Tsubaki?"

"Miss Sabrina?" Chouko replies. Her voice sounds considerably less sleepy than it did yesterday.

"Good morning, Miss Tsubaki," you greet her as you skim past that flue exhaust tower. It's practically a landmark to you by now, really. You squint at the power plant below, smiling and banking away.

"Good morning, Miss Sabrina," the girl replies, voice bright and cheerful. "How are you?" she asks.

"Was just about to ask you that. I'm doing well, though, thanks for asking," you say. "How are you?"

"Ahhh... we're doing great!" Chouko says, obvious cheer in her voice. "It's great to not have to worry about Akiko and her gang coming after us."

"Good to hear. No trouble?" you ask. You briefly consider the notion of multiple Sayakas. Maybe Homura might have stashed a few Sayakas in her shield before? You... sort of doubt it, but you never know, really. Well. There can only be one!

"Nope, haven't seen any of them," Chouko replies.

You shake away thoughts of a heaping pile of Sayakas. "Right," you say. That agrees with Rin's story, then. Trust, but verify, and all that. "So it looks like I'll probably be dropping by this weekend or so to refresh your Soul Gems, any particular preferences for times?"

"Ah... well, we're all quite free," Chouko says. "Any time is alright?"

"OK, then," you say. "I'll get back in touch with you closer in and fix a time?"

"Sounds good to me!" Chouko says.

You can see that old abandoned warehouse below you right now. "Right. Anything else?" you ask. You fold your wings and let yourself plummet like a stone.

"Um... yes, actually," Chouko says, sounding preoccupied. "Um... Did you call me yesterday?"

You blink. "Yes. Yes, I did. You were kind of sleepy at the time?" Your wings flare wide, dragging you to a stop, and you land amidst a huge cloud of sand kicked up by the downdraft.

"Oh. Um. Sorry," she says. "I... Yeah, I was asleep. I uh. Think I meant to call you back, but I wasn't sure if I was dreaming or no."

The Grief cascades down after you, spheres of ominous looking deep purple dropping from the sky to hover around you in orbiting, concentric rings.

You take a deep breath. What shall you do for today?

[] Write-in

=====​

And here... we... go.
 
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