There are three possible devices we could create that would break the system in half if we invented them:
1 - A device that converts magical girls back into bog standard normals without our intervention.
2 - A device that converts witches back into magical girls (although if you use this on a witch that was once a familiar, I don't know what the fuck would happen) without our intervention.
3 - A device that renders grief seeds a non-issue without our intervention.

Take a guess at which one seems the most viable to me.
I gather you're referring to 3 in terms of 'what seems the most viable to [you]', but if we can succeed at de-witching someone then we can work from there towards 2, which also 'breaks the system' without a need for us to continue existing (by merit of mostly-removing the permanency of the consequences of mismanaging your Soul Gem, the most damning part of Kyubey's contract of them all) . . . so I don't really think this denounces the de-witching initiative so much as gives it another item on the to-do list.

Really, if we do go for the 'self-cleansing Grief Seed' angle I personally see problems with it involving a Grief Seed and therefore (again) move to have a focus first on creating an alternative container for the Grief that we can then work towards 3 with, without involving Seeds in the first place -- it'll be better for public relations in-story and it'll have less unsettling ramifications overall. In fact, if we focus on the alternative container first and then move towards having it self-cleanse we could probably work on both it and the de-witching initiatives both without them stepping on one anothers' toes, given that we could focus on the de-witching of the Grief Seeds alongside the creation and improvement of the containers.
 
I think calling it a self cleansing grief seed is a terminology mix up. What is meant is anything that can automagically cleanse soul gems without our presence. I'd call it a Jyuubey but I'd probably get shot.
 
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...I have stated that I do not think dewitching is possible.

That does not mean I am against testing for it. I could just be wrong, after all. What Firn says goes, you know.

But that can't be the endpoint, and I want to make sure we are all aware that we cannot just stop there.

And, if I am right, and it isn't possible, the infinite grief seed will likely be our only option. That's why I'm pushing for it. It is our most viable option from my perspective. But, feel free to branch out. SCIENCE doesn't go in just one direction, after all.
It's a mechanism we know would work. Devices that persist are wishful thinking at best.
And Ugo, I've already explained why I don't agree with that. Restating your viewpoint is not an argument.
 
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...I have stated that I do not think dewitching is possible.

That does not mean I am against testing for it. I could just be wrong, after all. What Firn says goes, you know.

But that can't be the endpoint, and I want to make sure we are all aware that we cannot just stop there.

And, if I am right, and it isn't possible, the infinite grief seed will likely be our only option. That's why I'm pushing for it. It is our most viable option from my perspective. But, feel free to branch out. SCIENCE doesn't go in just one direction, after all.

And Ugo, I've already explained why I don't agree with that. Restating your viewpoint is not an argument.
Your idea still doesn't address how we'll overcome that though. Seems a lot less doable than de-witching, since we've at least found out some things that might lead to that. Overcoming our manipulation range has had no progress whatsoever.

Either way, short term, we need to work in and focus on a small area. We can start thinking globally when we have a way to help and we honestly don't need grief containers right now as badly as we do the ability to de-witch. De-witching also carries the benefit of making the witchbomb much less hazardous for Mami, and the more she knows the more comfortable we can be in our operations.
 
Your idea still doesn't address how we'll overcome that though.

...modify a grief seed. I mean, we've already modified a grief seed into a Clear Seed. We just need to modify it further.

I thought it was obvious...

...from that, I guess the next question is: How to we modify a grief seed to do so?

Well, we would need to modify it so the grief is expelled from it in some fashion, or consumed in some fashion. How do we do that? I don't know yet, we haven't really researched what we can do to grief seeds other than manipulating the grief inside of it. It stands to reason that perhaps we can use the grief as a vector to modify the internals of the seed.

So...that leads us to the question: What exactly do the internals of a grief seed do?

Hell if I know.

That's the first avenue for research.

Admittedly, dewitching shares the same question of figuring out how a grief seed works. My idea is really a matter of goals of what to do with that information.
 
Thinking about Grief storage got my mind travelling in bad directions. This is one of them.

"Sabrina," Sayaka asked of the second of two cooks in Mami's kitchen, "why does this die have nothing but 1's, 10's, and 100's?"

"Oh, that thing!" Sabrina turned her head from her work to address the bluenette: "That's a Grief Die! I'm thinking of a better name for it that isn't 'Cube' 'cause that may or may not be taken in an altern--" Sabrina took this moment to start coughing to stop herself, before continuing, "ANYWAY, it's a prototype not-Grief-Seed!"

Two blank looks and one awestruck one looked from the table to the kitchen.

"Buh?" "What." "That's amazing!"

"Eh, it's just one of a few projects I'm working on. I'm still trying to see about good shapes for the storage," Sabrina turned back to cooking with Mami so that she didn't cut herself instead of the carrot she was working on, "but so far that's working pretty well, even if I'd suggest never rolling it."

The temperature in the apartment dropped a good several degrees as a clatter of ivory upon wood rang out.

" . . . Oops?"

"Sabrina," rang out Homura's voice in a mixture of curiosity and concern in something between a question and a report, "why is a glass hemisphere appearing on the table."

The snowy-headed girl's blood began to chill. "Is it black?"

"Yes," answered the time traveller.

"Is there mist in it?"

"There is!" Remarked Madoka, "and it's forming letters!"

Oh crap.

"W-what's it say?" Keep calm Sabrina keep calm Sabrina rest in peace Robin Williams keep calm Sabrina this mustn't register on an emotional level--

"'There is much from the sea that we can learn, but the loss of your legs may be cause for concern' . . . Ah! S-Sabrinaaaa!"

--fuck it. "Sayaka!" Sabrina dropped her knife on the cutting board and rushed over to find . . . Sayaka looking at what was once her legs, a glimmering, blue-scaled mermaid's tail with nary a trace of Oktavia to it.

". . . Isupposeit'sastart" was all the busyminded magical girl could express before she fainted into her blonde housemate's arms.
 
...modify a grief seed. I mean, we've already modified a grief seed into a Clear Seed. We just need to modify it further.

I thought it was obvious...

...from that, I guess the next question is: How to we modify a grief seed to do so?

Well, we would need to modify it so the grief is expelled from it in some fashion, or consumed in some fashion. How do we do that? I don't know yet, we haven't really researched what we can do to grief seeds other than manipulating the grief inside of it. It stands to reason that perhaps we can use the grief as a vector to modify the internals of the seed.

So...that leads us to the question: What exactly do the internals of a grief seed do?

Hell if I know.

That's the first avenue for research.

Admittedly, dewitching shares the same question of figuring out how a grief seed works. My idea is really a matter of goals of what to do with that information.
And of course there's nothing even slightly questionable about turning a girl's soul into a perpetual cleansing machine.

We're not going to do that, on moral grounds if not practicality. Grief seeds and clear seeds work only as a temporary measure. I intend to vote against anything even remotely resembling "turn grief seeds into unlimited use machines" since it a)doesn't seem likely to work, b)goes against our actual agreed-on goal of reversing witchification.
 
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...modify a grief seed. I mean, we've already modified a grief seed into a Clear Seed. We just need to modify it further.
Modifying a complex structure to do something we don't know how to do is quite a long way removed from taking something out of a structure that's supposed to hold it. You might as well claim that bloodletting means you can improve the circulatory system so you don't have to breathe.
 
And of course there's nothing even slightly questionable about turning a girl's soul into a perpetual cleansing machine.

We're not going to do that, on moral grounds if not practicality. Grief seeds and clear seeds work only as a temporary measure.
...I have already explained that I don't think the soul is there anymore, which means from my perspective, your concern is invalid, because we wouldn't be turning a soul into a perpetual cleansing machine.

However, I don't know for sure.

I suppose finding out if it's still there is the question that shall determine our path.
 
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...I have already explained that I don't think the soul is there anymore, which means from my perspective, your concern is invalid, because we wouldn't be turning a soul into a perpetual cleansing machine.

However, I don't know for sure.

I suppose finding out if it's still there is the question that shall determine our path.
If you've read the updates, the soul is right there. In many ways, it is the grief seed.

Your idea is impractical, wrong from the perspective of helping the girls that became the grief seeds, goes against a great many of our actual goals, and detracts time and effort from more relevant and useful avenues of research that don't involve turning girls' souls into magical ATMs.

This idea won't work and goes against what we're trying for, and we shouldn't spend any time or effort on it.
 
...modify a grief seed. I mean, we've already modified a grief seed into a Clear Seed. We just need to modify it further.
This is actually the primary objection I have with the idea. I mean, I get that you've a goal in mind and I acknowledge that finding a way to produce a self-cleansing item from which to siphon Grief from a Soul Gem would assuredly be a good idea (it'd mean we'll need to spend less work overall as the Soul Maid), but as long as it involves a Grief Seed in the process for anything other than a model to copy for an alternative means of storing Grief I cannot help but argue against it, as the notion of subjecting what's left of a girl to eternal, unending service as a dustbin when we've already made noticeable progress towards possibly curing them of this state strikes me as fundamentally distasteful, as well as generally unable to go over very well with much of anyone who knows what a Grief Seed really is.

And it seems I'm not alone in this view.

I will once again put forward that if we do attempt to go down this path of research, that there should at least be the prerequisite of succeeding at creating an alternative Grief container that we can create and have remain functional, so that this concern I and others hold becomes a moot point.
 
...I have already explained that I don't think the soul is there anymore, which means from my perspective, your concern is invalid, because we wouldn't be turning a soul into a perpetual cleansing machine.

However, I don't know for sure.

I suppose finding out if it's still there is the question that shall determine our path.
What are you talking about? The soul is totally still there. We can see it in a soul gem, and it's still there in the seed.

You seem to have a problem here: we don't even begin to agree that the soul is no longer in the grief seed. And as long as we think it's still there, we will never agree to your plan.
 
I suppose this is because I am of the idea that the girl's soul and the witch are...not one and the same. They certainly share rooms in a soul gem I will not dispute that, but...I am of the belief that the witch leaves the soul behind when it hatches from a soul gem.

If that is true, dewitching will not be possible, which is why I at least tried to put the idea forward as a fucking avenue we can pursue.

That is what I am talking about.

Also, can I say that this discussion is so fucking hostile it hurts.
 
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I suppose this is because I am of the idea that the girl's soul and the witch are...not one and the same. They certainly share rooms in a soul gem I will not dispute that, but...I am of the belief that the witch leaves the soul behind when it hatches from a soul gem.

That is what I am talking about.

Also, can I say that this discussion is so fucking hostile it hurts.
Don't hide behind that, dude. You're getting dogpiled because most of us disagree with you vehemently. We've been picking apart your plan, not you.

Anyway, like I said, your argument cannot succeed as long as we still disagree on whether the girl's soul still remains in the seed. We will never agree so long as we disagree on that. Your mistake was assuming that we would accept that, when it's a fundamental part of what most of the thread wants to do.
 
...I have already explained that I don't think the soul is there anymore, which means from my perspective, your concern is invalid, because we wouldn't be turning a soul into a perpetual cleansing machine.

Counterargument: Canon. Or specifically, Rebellion.

Rebellion pushes the balance of probabilities that MG and Witch are different takes on the same entity, if not outright confirming it. Nagisa/Charlotte, Sayaka/Oktavia, Homura's various forms, Homura's internal monologue upon witching, that soul gems disappear as Madokami effects her wish to "erase all witches from existence before they are even born", Kyubey's statement about the "phase change from hope to despair", and many other statements by characters throughout the film.

Take that and the fact that a seed can be re-hatched.

If MG <=> Witch and Seed <=> Witch, then the essential part of the MG still exists. One can argue that MG -> Witch irreversibly sacrifices the MG's soul and that Madokami's wish erased this rule, I suppose, but the events inside the isolation field suggest otherwise.
 
Right now, we're focused on the plight of these disconnected soul gems, these rocked girls, but aren't witches suffering more? As far as anyone can tell, a disconnected magical girl doesn't feel any pain, she's just in a coma. Giving these girls back their bodies, their lives, is important, yes, but isn't it far more important to figure out how to end the pain and suffering of witches?
If you're talking about the witches currently residing in grief seeds, then the most that we can tell is that those souls are "hungry" in some sense for more grief. I don't know if this means that they are experiencing pain and suffering, but I do know that clear seeds are considered "quiescent", so we already do know that clearing seeds fixes that problem (if it is a problem).

2&3: Soul Gems don't transfer grief between one another, I'm pretty sure. Waste of time either way. DC'd gems operate much the same as when they're connected. Why would they suddenly begin acting like grief seeds just because they're DC'd?
As far as I know, we have never tried (and never heard of anyone trying) to transfer grief directly from one soul gem to another. So there's no basis for knowing one way or another.

And the question is not "do DC'd gems operate like grief seeds?" but rather "do clear seeds operate like DC'd gems?" If the answer to that question is yes, then it's possible that we don't have any more work to do in trying to transform a clear seed into a gem and we can start focusing instead on rebuilding a body for it.

So you know how it's instinctive the process to wake a MG from unconsciousnness using magic?

Try it with a clear seed? Seems to be on the same 'too simple to work' level as healing, but might provoke a useful reaction.
Um. I'm all for trying this, but we do need a body to connect the clear seed to before this is possible. Preferably the original body or at least as close a facsimile as we can produce with our bullshit grief powers. And preferably not a body which would disintegrate if it left our aegis.

You know, building the self-cleansing or infinitely cleansing grief seed is an idea we can work towards that doesn't require us to drop witch-bombs on people and can easily justify some of our experiments, as well as being a possible way to break the system by itself.

I honestly do not know why that idea was completely and totally ignored when I posted it a while back...it wasn't even acknowledged.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. If you are talking about building some sort of machine which can cleanse grief and turn it into energy (like the machines that the incubators must be using), then yes, it's a good idea. There's a good chance that such a machine is impossible, but if it is possible to build such a machine, then our bullshit grief powers might be able to make it. Possibly even to mass produce it (though that's a bit harder and might require materials that we do not have available).
 
Our Benefactor pt. 1
You awaken to warm limbs wrapped around you, hugging you tightly from behind, and warm breaths tickling the back of your neck.

Mami's bed is a lot more comfortable than that mattress on the floor, you have to admit. You wiggle a little, trying to free yourself, but Mami murmurs something indistinct and nestles tighter against your back. You can feel her wavy hair brush against the back of your head as she tucks herself in.

... Well, at least she didn't steal the blanket overnight.

Your arm's trapped by Mami's arm. You try to move it, but she's wrapped around you tightly like a four limbed octopus.

You chuff out a breath. Could be worse things to wake up to, you suppose. You're... well, you don't really want to slide into self recrimination again, but you do wish that Mami weren't so, so dependent on you. It's better for her than her loneliness, her dependence on Kyuubey.

That's something you can hold to yourself. And hold to helping Mami. Helping everyone.

And hey. Mami was genuinely happy yesterday. That counts for something.

You huff out a breath, blinking up at the wall in front of you, illuminated by the faint streetlights shining in through the window, casting their dappled patterns. Plans, plans, plans for today. Breakfast, annoy Sayaka by being too cheerful, ask about the healing, check in with Ono... Visiting warehouse-kun.

You chuckle quietly to yourself.

"Mmm," Mami mumbles, her grip on you shifting. "Mm- Sabrina?" You can feel her freeze for a moment, her breath hitching for a moment. "Sabrina?" she asks, arms loosening for a moment.

"Good morning, Mami," you say, turning over and giving her a smile.

"Good morning, Sabrina," she breathes, golden eyes wide and very awake.

You blow a puff of air at her face, smiling, and she flinches back, giggling. "Good morning, Mami," you say, sitting up and rubbing at your eyes. "Did you sleep well?"

Mami sits up beside you, yawning widely. "I did," she agrees.

"Good," you say emphatically, sliding your feet off the bed. "Would you like to use the washroom first?"

"Um, OK," Mami says, slipping off the far side of the bed. She pads over to the door, casting a look backwards at you.

You smile at her, and follow her to the living room. "I'll be here, Mami," you say.

Mami smiles, pausing at the bathroom door. "OK. M-maybe..." she trails off, smile faltering for a second. She shakes her head. "You'll be here?" she asks again.

"Yes, I will," you say firmly.

"Alright," Mami says, and closes the door behind her.

She takes longer, today. When she pulls the door open, it's with no less alacrity than she usually does, but her eyes are warm when she finds you, leaning against the wall. "I... I'll get breakfast started, Sabrina?" she asks, voice tentative.

You smile warmly at her. "Sure."

You don't take too long to clean up. When you walk into the kitchen bare minutes later, you find Mami fussing with the ricecooker. She looks up, tension easing from her shoulders and a relieved smile spreading across her face when she sees you.

"Hey, Mami," you say, moving to peer over her shoulder. Beyond the rice, she's got the frying pan and the big mixing bowl out, so... "Pancakes?" you guess.

"Mmmhm!" Mami confirms.

"Right, then," you say, reaching for the flour.

Amiable jockeying for the cooking utensils and the sizzle of batter fills the air, breakfast shaping itself quickly in the form of a small pile of pancakes, and lunch packed neatly into two lunchboxes. You eventually find yourself sitting across from Mami, the savoury smell of the pancakes wafting into the air.

Mami smiles at you across the table as you begin to dig in. "Shall we check in with our friends?" she asks as she slices her pancake into neat little squares.

"I was just thinking that," you say, pouring syrup over your own pancake. "Gooooooood morning everybody!" You reach out telepathically for your friends - Mami, Madoka, Sayaka, and Homura. You'd include Hitomi, you suppose, but you can't.

And, well, you suppose Oriko and Kirika are your friends. Sort of? Kirika is, anyway. Bestbuddy. Bestpuppy? She kind of is about as cheerful and eager and energetic as one... a mental image of Kirika as a puppy, being enthusiastically patted by her oujo crosses your mind.

Mami giggles.

Sayaka's the first to respond, with a long, drawn out moan. "How are you so cheerful. How."

"Good genes," you say flippantly. "Or so I assume."

Sayaka's only response is another moan.

"Good morning!" Madoka says, with perhaps a little less pep in her tone than you.

"Good morning, everyone," Mami says, smiling at you as she forks up a piece of her pancake.

Homura's the last to respond, with a toneless, "Good morning."

"So, how's everyone?" you ask, smiling as you feed a piece of pancake into your mouth, letting the fragrant, fluffy slice melt in your mouth, flavours of syrup and butter mixing, tempered by the pliable, absorbent pancake.

"Ah, I'm waiting for breakfast now! Papa's frying sausages and eggs this morning!" Madoka says, cheer in her voice.

"That sounds delicious," Mami says.

"It is!" Madoka says. "How about you, Sayaka?"

"Cereal," the bleunette grumbles. "We're not morning people."

You chuckle under your breath, grinning at Mami. She shakes her head, unable to hide a fond smile.

"Oh, hey, Sayaka, I just remembered," you say, cocking your head slightly. "About Kyousuke. We might try to finish off his healing sometime today. Would you prefer me to wait until we can all go as a group again?"

"Um," Sayaka says, clearly befuddled. "Uh, I think... um, I want to be there?"

"Alright, then," you say, taking the opportunity to eat more of the pancake.

"Um. Thanks again, Sabrina, Mami. Thanks, Homura. I... I'll see you all soon?" Sayaka says, her voice still fuzzy from sleep. "'s too early for this."

"Yep," you agree. "Later!"

"See you soon!" Madoka says.

And finally... "See you," Homura says, voice as quiet and neutral as ever.

Mami echoes the goodbyes, smiling at you as she does so. Breakfast rolls by with the clink of cutlery and quiet conversation. Half an hour later finds you and Mami strolling down the street, threading the sparse early morning crowds and headed to Mitakihara Middle School. Mami walks close at your side, her school bag hanging over the far shoulder.

You smile, breathing in the crisp morning air. "Hey, Mami?" you say. "I need to make a phone call, OK? To Megane."

Mami nods. "Alright," she agrees.

The phone rings a few times before it's picked up. "Hello, Ono Megane speaking," the girl's voice replies.

"Good morning, Miss Ono," you say, tone carefully polite. "This is Sabrina."

"Good morning, Miss Sabrina," she says, pausing and evidently waiting for you to continue.

"How are you doing?" you ask. "And have you used the Grief Seed?"

"I'm doing acceptably," Megane replies. "And yes, I have, this morning," she says. "One use, so far. Do you want it back?"

"No, that's fine," you say as you and Mami turn into the path to school, the lush vegetation a welcome shield from the slowly rising bustle of Mitakihara waking up. "I meant it when I said that everyone should have at least one."

"Very well," Megane says.

"Mami! Sabrina!" a voice calls from behind you. You look up, and spot Madoka and Sayaka waving at you from up ahead. Homura's also there, standing beside Madoka in her customary pool of silence. You wave back, and then point at the phone held to your ear. Sayaka nods, and makes a zipping motion over her mouth with her hand as you and Mami walk over to join them.

"Excellent. So, where and when would you like to meet?" you ask into the phone.

"Would just after school be acceptable?" Megane replies.

You purse your lips in consideration. Well, it's not like you didn't forsee this scheduling clash, but it's still annoying. Healing Kyousuke, meeting Megane... It's not like you can't juggle one or the other around, but still.

[] Write-in

=====​

And here begins Book 2, chapter 3: Our Benefactor.
 
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