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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Yes, that one, Ugolino... but since it has literally had no impact...


[x] Ugolino
Athough I am still unhappy about the full Self-bomb and think it will do something horrible to the Mami
 
Yea, I wouldn't mind one additional conditional between the "knowledge thing" and the self-bomb, but I think Sabrina has enough agency to hesitate (and thus have a reaction vote with the rest held in abeyance) if Mami starts getting too upset.
 
Let's see...

I'm against the deliberate attempts to change the subject, along with the "Let's talk about unicorns and puppies instead" tack.

I'm for allowing Mami to react and make her own, unprompted choice.

I'd prefer giving her some concrete reference points to wrap her head around, instead of vague, handwavy stuff.

I somewhat dislike the excessive focus on the terri-bad side. It's reasonably written, and we certain don't want to trivialize the worst of it, but I also don't want to make it seem like the inside of Sabrina's head is like walking into a witch's labyrinth for the first time, all strangeness and horror.

I dislike the explicit description of exactly which secret we tell her. It's probable that we'd go that direction, but I'd really want to know Mami's full reaction before applying it to a vote. While unlikely, what if she decides she wants to know the worst of it right now?
 
Kinematics said:
make it seem like the inside of Sabrina's head is like walking into a witch's labyrinth for the first time, all strangeness and horror.
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Huh, I thought Sabrina's head was exactly like that. Yea, obvious joke is obvious


Kinematics said:
It's probable that we'd go that direction, but I'd really want to know Mami's full reaction before applying it to a vote. While unlikely, what if she decides she wants to know the worst of it right now?
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As to whether Mami asks a question or has a response that the conditional does not cover, and Sabrina's answer and approach to it has significant reprecussions, usually Firn will interrupt the vote mid-way, and give a chance for a reaction with the rest held in abeyance. I doubt he would screw us over by having Sabrina try to apply a plan that is under a part that our conditionals did not cover.

EDIT: Multiple quotes to same post seems to act weird...
 
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The 1-10 thing just doesn't work, we'd be asking what Mami wants, and if Mami wants to know secrets, that's a perfectly reasonable starting point with enough caveats and conditions to avoid us going "lol here's a secret when you asked to hear the worst". And we AREN'T overstating the horror or focusing on it.

Or what tech said, yeah.
 
Jackercracks said:
It's a good point with the drug thing. Now that I think about it we are basically doing Pavlovian conditioning on her, we could stand to give her a fully empty grief seed and let her be in charge of her own gem corruption again.
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It's only Pavlovian conditioning if the two things are actually unrelated. Associating food with bells is incorrect, but associating food with revitalization and energy is only right and proper. Associating Sabrina with grief reduction is the same sort of thing; it may be a kind of conditioning, but it's the kind of conditioning that leads to a correct understanding of how the world works.

Ompa60 said:
I don't really follow the discussions so this might have been gone over earlier, but are we friend-zoning Mami on purpose? It looks like she was going to say something about us not being just a friend to her here and that even if she has other friends we're irreplaceable. That last line also makes her seem pretty dejected about our response.

We might want to clarify our relationship with her soonish. Either start dating her, tell her straight out that we are never being more than friends, or tell her that we like her romantically but aren't comfortable with dating her until she's better about standing up to us.
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The power dynamics are way too screwed up for any sort of healthy romance to occur here. Mami is depressed and worried that we'll abandon her. That worry is unfounded and she probably understands that intellectually, but that doesn't change the underlying worry. Mami has self-worth problems and she feels that she doesn't have anything to offer apart from her meguca skills - and her confidence in the value of those skills has recently been seriously damaged due to the recent revelations about Kyuubey and soul gems. Right now, she's willing to do anything she thinks that we might want in order to get us to stay, which is not a mindset which is conducive to a healthy romance. Additionally, we're only 8 days old. We have a ton of random knowledge stuffed in our head so that we can act like we're older than we are, but in terms of actual experience? We're totally not ready for that sort of thing. Right now, we're Mami's friend. Her best friend, in fact. We both understand that and (according to Firn) she's not asking for romance and we're definitely not going to ask for romance either, so there's no ambiguity to be discussed.

Onmur said:
Madoka isn't really happy unless she's risking herself for others. It's not just the canon last Madowish, but in earlier loops, she was happy being a meguca, fighting monsters to protect others. It's because she can't think of herself as somebody worth of... Well, much of anything really. Self esteem issues and what not.
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Cannongerbil said:
I'm pretty sure you are misreading Madoka's personality here. It's not that she doesn't feel happy unless she is risking her life for others, it that she A) wants to feel useful to others, and B) doesn't know how to go about doing that. You know, just like most other people her age. None of this requires that she put herself in danger to feel good about herself, she just doesn't like feeling helpless. Being a meguca just happens to grants both those needs, by giving her a clear purpose and a means to accomplish it.
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I think you're both misreading Madoka a bit here. Madoka is sensitive and caring and thoughtful. She has a history of making almost purely unselfish wishes (for Amy the cat in the first timeline, and for all witches in the canon time line, and for all meguca in the last time line for this quest). Unselfish wishes are extremely rare and possibly even unique. Madoka feels bad if she sees a real need that isn't being met; if someone else can meet the need, she is just as happy as if she is the one who is able to help. That's not the same thing as needing to be needed, otherwise Madokami wouldn't have been an invisible, unknowable goddess. The only selfish component of Madoka's wish in canon was that Homura (and Tatsuya) were able to remember her.

[X] Ugolino
 
Muramasa said:
What is up with that vote counter?
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I don't know, but the name thing's happened several times lately. The count itself seems to be accurate though.

boonerunner said:
The power dynamics are way too screwed up for any sort of healthy romance to occur here. Mami is depressed and worried that we'll abandon her. That worry is unfounded and she probably understands that intellectually, but that doesn't change the underlying worry. Mami has self-worth problems and she feels that she doesn't have anything to offer apart from her meguca skills - and her confidence in the value of those skills has recently been seriously damaged due to the recent revelations about Kyuubey and soul gems. Right now, she's willing to do anything she thinks that we might want in order to get us to stay, which is not a mindset which is conducive to a healthy romance. Additionally, we're only 8 days old. We have a ton of random knowledge stuffed in our head so that we can act like we're older than we are, but in terms of actual experience? We're totally not ready for that sort of thing. Right now, we're Mami's friend. Her best friend, in fact. We both understand that and (according to Firn) she's not asking for romance and we're definitely not going to ask for romance either, so there's no ambiguity to be discussed.
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Agreed on the first point for as long as Mami's mental state is as you describe it. And in terms of existence...being a magical construct kind of makes that whole thing irrelevant. We might have kind of sprung full-formed out of Madoka's forehead, so to speak, but that doesn't really have an effect on Sabrina's mental state. But yes, we're agreed that a holding pattern's the right call here and definitely not pressing in a way that wouldn't be good for Mami.
 
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boonerunner said:
it's the kind of conditioning that leads to a correct understanding of how the world works.
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You're right of course. What I mean is that it's not healthy for Mami. Her view of the world is accurate, but the subconscious fuckery probably isn't good for her long term. Consider a situation:

A guy has a power that means anyone who looks at him gets a burst of endorphins. People following him around would have an accurate view of the world, but we would still call it unhealthy and we would have to question if any relationships that guy happened to form could be real or not.

Not that I am suggesting the situation is comparable or on the same level to our one, right? It's just the a thought experiment to demonstrate the point that she can have an accurate view that's still not good for her.
 
I'm still a bit concerned about dropping the "self-bomb" tonight, though the "knowledge thing" sub-set of it should be safe.

Not sure if I want to split the vote up over it though.
 
I wouldn't go so far as removing the self-bomb outright, just guarding by another conditional (check on Mami again, ask if she wants us to continue, or whatever) after the "knowledge thing".

More Mami comfort and reassurance can't hurt either, but I don't have any ideas about how to summarize it (trying to avoid exact phrasing here).
 
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[x]Some of it's pretty bad, Mami. I won't lie. Some of it is just...strange. Things I can't really explain, or that don't make sense to me right now. But none of it's something that'd make me leave...and I think things will get better.
[x]Ask about her.
[x] I know this is a lot to hear right now, Mami. Do you want to hear some of it tonight, or do you want to just relax? I'm okay with either.
-[x]Just talk about light-hearted things. WhateverMami wants to bring up.
-[x]If she seems to be doing okay and wants to know...
[x]About the weird stuff...I know a lot more things than I should, and not just the stuff that I need to tell you, but also more mundane things like languages, math, science, strategy, medicine, the magic system, and so much more, are all stuffed inside my head. That's what I meant by things that don't make sense.
[X] I am not to sure what to make out of this, but it seems as if I am best suited to try and fix the whole Magical Girl mess , so I guess I will try my best.But I want your support and help, Mami, because you are very, very important to me...
 
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