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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
Uh...okay, the only thing sensical to answer to...

Its not about horizontal load. Vertical load on the ground when you move water over ground which previously never carried water. Soil compressed on slight slopes you can cut a lesser ditch across will collapse when you do the same for a canal.

And you will have to cut through slopes, because otherwise its going to be where the river already is. You don't cut down to bedrock because it takes even crazier levels of effort than the canal already takes.
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I meant the "bedrock" of the hills, which I guess was an overstatement. So let's just pretend I said "the solid stone forming the core of the hill" or something alike.

Vertical load on the ground when you move water over it does make sense, though the water would likely be how deep? 7 ft on average? More? The fact that water is going to be seeping into it makes sense though, that is different than the tightly sealed stone canals I was imagining. But then again, it's likely that this is going to have a different effect than it would in relation to the dam. Unless we do build the dam into non-stone-secured hillsides.

I cannot imagine that anyone who had had the canal dream explained to them would imagine "a slight ditch" but you're probably just explaining what our basic knowledge of the issue would be. If we dig deep enough, the slight compression won't matter, and since we're imagining a large canal that transports relatively deep water... Anyways, no matter what we do in regard to this, the canal is an extremely long project and we'd probably learn a few things as we go. Would it be up to the needs of the dam, though?

SpeckofStardust said:
1. tree's on land is not going to do anything to storms out on the water.
2. the canal will let us use wood inland to make better ships
3. roads are useful.
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Storms on water can come inland. When they do, the forest dampens their force by resisting the winds, which still affect the shore if the storm is big enough, anyway. The canal that isn't built yet and could use the support of expanded fishing and better fishing boats. Roads are useful but a sufficiently wide one is basically as much effort as the canal, and transporting the logs alone requires full-on heavy-duty wagons rather than simple carts. Which in turn require hella big roads with few issues. Regardless, expanded coastal forests will provide a foodsource for fishers when the storms are regularly too bad to bring in food otherwise. And a place for shelter, if necessary, perhaps.

hylas240 said:
You make a good point on the Canal of doom (trade mark pending). Once we build it our production of ships would be easily made with quality woods from the valley. Also, it might open up the possibility of having an Assembly Line for ship building.
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typically, cut and trimmed but not de-barked logs are floated downriver, cut as desired, and then dried/seasoned for a while. Floating them down undoes seasoning. Also, stop abandoning me. I can't hold this line alone. U started it.
 
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Umi-san said:
I meant the "bedrock" of the hills, which I guess was an overstatement. So let's just pretend I said "the solid stone forming the core of the hill" or something alike.

Vertical load on the ground when you move water over it does make sense, though the water would likely be how deep? 7 ft on average? More? The fact that water is going to be seeping into it makes sense though, that is different than the tightly sealed stone canals I was imagining. But then again, it's likely that this is going to have a different effect than it would in relation to the dam. Unless we do build the dam into non-stone-secured hillsides.

I cannot imagine that anyone who had had the canal dream explained to them would imagine "a slight ditch" but you're probably just explaining what our basic knowledge of the issue would be. If we dig deep enough, the slight compression won't matter, and since we're imagining a large canal that transports relatively deep water... Anyways, no matter what we do in regard to this, the canal is an extremely long project and we'd probably learn a few things as we go. Would it be up to the needs of the dam, though?


Storms on water can come inland. When they do, the forest dampens their force by resisting the winds, which still affect the shore if the storm is big enough, anyway. The canal that isn't built yet and could use the support of expanded fishing and better fishing boats. Roads are useful but a sufficiently wide one is basically as much effort as the canal, and transporting the logs alone requires full-on heavy-duty wagons rather than simple carts. Which in turn require hella big roads with few issues. Regardless, expanded coastal forests will provide a foodsource for fishers when the storms are regularly too bad to bring in food otherwise. And a place for shelter, if necessary, perhaps.


typically, cut and trimmed but not de-barked logs are floated downriver, cut as desired, and then dried/seasoned for a while. Floating them down undoes seasoning. Also, stop abandoning me. I can't hold this line alone. U started it.
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Not if we use barges to carry them down river.
 
Umi-san said:
That's more or less literally what I was imagining, yes.
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From your wording it sounded like you meant floating the logs down on water instead of on boats.

I'm not abandoning you! :( I just don't wanna lock into a set decision because it was the first thing. Keeping an open mind to stuff is important man.
 
On a completed unrelated note, have we got any pets?

No, not feline kind; we master of human race.
 
hylas240 said:
From your wording it sounded like you meant floating the logs down on water instead of on boats.

I'm not abandoning you! :( I just don't wanna lock into a set decision because it was the first thing. Keeping an open mind to stuff is important man.
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Oh. Wait. Did you mean float seasoned wood down barges on the river?? Okay. My image was of the logs I'd previously described being on the barge. it's more or less the same, if so, jsut in a less controlled way.

But if you meant seasoned wood that's rather different, and would probably allow for a vaguely more efficient chain, especially since it would be easier to season wood away from the wet coastal winds.
 
veekie said:
We're upriver from these guys man. They're downriver.

And the update itself says the disease didn't SPREAD across everyone like a waterbourne disease, it HOPPED, from family to family with no interactions.[/b]
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Are they? I thought our river fed into the ocean, which means it flows from them to us to the ocean, in that order, on account of it being freshwater.

I'm not sure why I think it connects to the ocean though. If the waterfall is the source of the river, rather than merely feeding into it, then you might be right.

As for the spread vs hop thing, aren't you being a little bit too sensitive to the terminology? Quarantine or not, barriers or not, interaction or not, people drink water.

More importantly than where the disease came from, however, is how our people think about it.

If we blame the bodies, our people aren't thinking in terms of sanitation. They think it's a mystical retaliation from the ancestors or whatever.

If we blame the lowlanders however, then they think in terms of spreading illness. Which is closer to the truth regardless of the actual source. It'd also help prevent diseases like cholera in the future, given our people would know to keep the water clean.
 
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Umi-san said:
Oh. Wait. Did you mean float seasoned wood down barges on the river?? Okay. My image was of the logs I'd previously described being on the barge. it's more or less the same, if so, jsut in a less controlled way.

But if you meant seasoned wood that's rather different, and would probably allow for a vaguely more efficient chain, especially since it would be easier to season wood away from the wet coastal winds.
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Misunderstanding happen all the time :)
Seasoning wood and then shipping them to the coast on the Canal of Doom (trade mark still pending...damn capitalists) would make it easier than transporting the wood to be seasoned on the coast itself, for the reason you already stated.

Since generally speaking we're still conflicted on planting denser forests around the coast to serve as an easy low quality source of wood and buffer to strong winds, why don't we just select step farms and expand fishing?

[Main] Improve Trail
[Secondary] Step Farms
[Secondary] Expand Fishing

If we're gonna handle the planting later, should we domesticate the snails first instead of expand our fishing?
 
Wait, did we just invent taxes as a response to people getting to rich by gambling and prostitution? :wtf:
Sounds like real life to me :p
 
hylas240 said:
Misunderstanding happen all the time :)
Seasoning wood and then shipping them to the coast on the Canal of Doom (trade mark still pending...damn capitalists) would make it easier than transporting the wood to be seasoned on the coast itself, for the reason you already stated.

Since generally speaking we're still conflicted on planting denser forests around the coast to serve as an easy low quality source of wood and buffer to strong winds, why don't we just select step farms and expand fishing?

[Main] Improve Trail
[Secondary] Step Farms
[Secondary] Expand Fishing

If we're gonna handle the planting later, should we domesticate the snails first instead of expand our fishing?
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I'd much rather domesticate snails instead of expanding fishing, but I can imagine that if we expand fishing first it would give us more widespread wildlife knowledge. But, by the same token, a dedicated effort to understand the snails' ecosystem would mean we understand fish ecosystems better, and as a result would more sustainably harvest them.
Aka expand = more quantity of actions giving us knowledge. Domesticate = more focused effort to understand, but maybe we'd be outside the range of an important species or something.
Opinion?
 
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Umi-san said:
I'd much rather domesticate snails instead of expanding fishing, but I can imagine that if we expand fishing first it would give us more widespread wildlife knowledge. But, by the same token, a dedicated effort to understand the snails' ecosystem would mean we understand fish ecosystems better, and as a result would more sustainably harvest them.

Opinion?
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If we expand our fishing grounds it would be a small driving force towards building better ships, improve our food supply (that isn't affected by droughts nearly as much as farms), and opens up possible sea trade with other villages.

On the other hand, if we get a steady, controlled source of this incredibly valuable luxury then we would have a proverbial big stick in terms of economic advantage with sea trade.
 
hylas240 said:
If we expand our fishing grounds it would be a small driving force towards building better ships, improve our food supply (that isn't affected by droughts nearly as much as farms), and opens up possible sea trade with other villages.

On the other hand, if we get a steady, controlled source of this incredibly valuable luxury then we would have a proverbial big stick in terms of economic advantage with sea trade.
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That was an opinion I expressed earlier, in relation to trade expeditions, and still hold. But Fishing is rather different, as it would develop our boats and lead to an interaction with people. And then we could domesticate snails and then send an actual trade expedition to them. But maybe it would still be better to have the trade good first, regardless? idk.
 
Umi-san said:
That was an opinion I expressed earlier, in relation to trade expeditions, and still hold. But Fishing is rather different, as it would develop our boats and lead to an interaction with people. And then we could domesticate snails and then send an actual trade expedition to them. But maybe it would still be better to have the trade good first, regardless? idk.
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Well we won't have anything that indicates that the snails are in danger of being over-hunted, so I think if we needed we could hold it off until later and expand our fishing grounds.
It's not like we don't produce dyes anyway, we could still trade dyes with other civs...it would just be much easier to produce it if we domesticate them.
 
hylas240 said:
Well we won't have anything that indicates that the snails are in danger of being over-hunted, so I think if we needed we could hold it off until later and expand our fishing grounds.
It's not like we don't produce dyes anyway, we could still trade dyes with other civs...it would just be much easier to produce it if we domesticate them.
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Oh, wow. I wasn't even thinking of over-hunting the snails. Shoot. Yeah, let's go for domesticating the snails first then. That made me super worried...
 
Ooh CKII just went on sale

Should I get it? Yay or nay?

Feels like alot of people refernce it so maybe it is okay to ask here?
 
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