[X] These things happen
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed upon the settlers)

I feel that disturbing the dead is a bad taboo to develop because we will most likely eventually need to relocate dead people, for all that that won't be a near-future issue.

These things happen is maybe too laissez faire, but it's literally true that diseases just happen, sometimes. And none of the options are actually that great in regards to stopping them - though it's possible that unearthing the dead was the issue. Idk our process. And it's possible that the lowlanders brought the disease, but if we just chase them away that makes us too isolationist - though I admit that THEY ARE SETTLING ON OUR LAND which pisses me off. So I kind of want to drive them away.

Sending experts is > trading, to me, because sending experts better expresses our dominance over the area and will work to incorporate them. Sending traders somewhat permits their unauthorized presence.
 
Last edited:
[X] Disturbing the dead
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)
 
[X] These things happen
[X] Sending traders to them (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)

we need information
 
[X] These things happen
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)
 
Place the blame...
[] Disturbing the dead (Depending on how long they'd been buried, they could still have some infectious diseases incubating on them. This would help develop the 'hated profession' of working with the dead, or alternatively push even more reverence for the dead)
[] Tolerating bad behaviour (Prompts more strict restrictions on these activities, and at the very least likely makes them illegal to use as one's only form of employment)
[] The lowlander settlers (Prompts somewhat less open attitudes towards outsiders, grinding against our sharing circle tradition)
[] These things happen (Is the middling choice that aims not to make a big deal of placing blame; grinds against eye for an eye, the people want to point to a target here)

The settlers would be dealt with by...
[] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers) (Bonuses with sharing circle, may help integrate them)
[] Sending traders to them (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers) (Bonuses with sharing circle, gives us a soft in)
[] Ignoring them (Ignore the lowlanders does nothing, for now...)
[] Shunning them (Hating them goes against the sharing circle tradition, but appeases eye for an eye. They're unlikely to integrate for some time)
[] Driving them out (Can only be taken if the blame is placed on the settlers) (Appeases eye for an eye, harms sharing circle, removes them)

[X] Disturbing the dead
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)
 
[X] These things happen
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed upon the settlers.


In the future generation. Our legend shall be the cradle of civilization. Farmers, lawgiver etc and hopefully others. That's our lasting legacy.
 
I am against These Things Happen as that would potentially develop an accepting attitude because of disasters like this. This is bad because in case of such things actions need to be taken lest things spiral out of control.
 
I am against These Things Happen as that would potentially develop an accepting attitude because of disasters like this. This is bad because in case of such things actions need to be taken lest things spiral out of control.
I could not disagree more. The fact that things happen does not mean that we do not try to stop things from getting worse. It COULD be taken in a que sera sera way, where we might not work to prevent the things from occurring in the first place, but I rather find that iffy.
 
[X] The lowlander settlers
[X] Driving them out (Can only be taken if the blame is placed on the settlers)

You can't trust those dirty people down over there! They bring disease and drought and probably steal!
 
[X] These things happen
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)

Taboos about disturbing the dead will stymie medical advances later.
 
Smells like foul play.

[X] Disturbing the dead
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)

If we're lucky, we can get some sort of necropolis type stuff going on, which might prompt improves in architecture, artistry, and mysticism.
 
I still don't necessarily agree, just because the dam makes building the canal much easier.

So basically what I said... Also, it depends on if you think we're actually going to be trading large amounts of cargo at this stage of dev or not. Trading food would be dumb because any place that's big enough to be worth trading w/ probably already produces enough. Smaller luxuries like dye are better, and smaller.

Dams need to be vertical and withstand pressure, canals need decent stonework to not need as many repairs. Both need good organization. Great... So since they're different types of difficulty, building a canal won't contribute to preparing for building a dam, since they require such different things. So we might as well build the dam first, once we're ready to, since it will speed up the canal. Yay.

How a dam speeds up canal construction remains an inexplicable leap of logic. Your dams must be built where the water already flows, to trap it and gather it.

A dam is a challenge of engineering knowledge and expertise. The danger is orders of magnitude higher than a canal because if you screw up a canal, you need to do more work. If you screw up a dam, it means in the next generations to come, everything downstream gets Harzivan'ed.

A canal requires extensive earthworks, but not special skill.

So look at the logical elements here:
Canal:
-Aided by:
--Roads and the ability to ferry workers and construction materials.
--Step Farms and the ability to both feed more specialists and experience in learning how well large structures deal with water.
--Walls and the improvements in brickwork, masonry and construction techniques in general
--Expanded fishing and the ability to both feed more specialists and the improved boatworks to use a partial canal to transport materials
--Expanded pastures and the ability to make more use of animal labor for digging and moving materials
--New settlement and the ability to improve organization of resources, as well as the ability of the settlement to provide a supply midpoint for the canal.
--Megastructure experience
--Development of engineers to plan out the depths and sidings, as well as how to handle erosion.

-Aids:
--Development of specialist artisan caste for constructions. Given the scale of the construction, you'd have actual architects and engineers arise.
--Development of megastructure experience.
--Development of logistics and centralization resistance.
--Development of hidden hydrology experience, particularly the things you learn when you have tons of water on a structure.

-Consequences:
--Trade routes will change. The heavy traffic such a structure would require during it's construction will reshape trade routes, and settlements along it will recieve disproportionate trade as you can travel faster along a canal even without boats, due to cleared land.
--Rerouted water can affect the lowlands, depending on whether the canal finds an alternative route to the sea(favors us if we link it to the fishing village), or relink to it. Some of them might be a bit salty about that.
--Disease will spread much faster along the route.

-Risks: Low. Failed canals costs time and manpower.

Dam:
-Aided by:
--Step Farms and the ability to both feed more specialists and experience in learning how well large structures deal with water.
--Walls and the improvements in brickwork, masonry and construction techniques in general
--Expanded pastures and the ability to make more use of animal labor for digging and moving materials
--Megastructure experience
--Hydrology experience to understand what large amounts of water does to seemingly solid earth.
--Geographical experience with the building area to understand it's stability.
--Development of engineers to assess loads and necessary stresses.

-Aids:
--Development of specialist artisan caste for constructions. Given the scale of the construction, you'd have actual architects and engineers arise.
--Development of megastructure experience.
--Development of logistics and centralization resistance.
--Development of hidden hydrology experience, particularly the things you learn when you have tons of water on a structure.

-Consequences:
--Ruination of flooding based agriculture downstream. Dams trap silt even if they let the water through. The floods can still happen, but the soil will not be replenished. On the other hand if we figure this out our farms will be ludicrously rich if we seasonally dredge the dam to prevent buildup(and we will want to, because the silt piling up will gradually choke the water outflows and stress the dam)
--Significant reduction of water availability downstream until it reaches capacity, but stabilizes flow. Depending on management it can absorb small floods and droughts.
--Potentially induce earthquakes, depending on construction and geography. This will be transient, but terrifying, especially for anything built on hills.
--Ecological changes. Expect more large animals to move into the area to take advantage of a reliable watering hole.
--Disease increase. Until the ecology balances out again, the newly flooded area would result in increases in insects, algae and other microorganisms.

-Risks: High. Failed dams can destroy dozens of villages downstream, with little to no warning

Anyway, while we could probably start the canals safely even without the prereqs, we cannot say the same for dams. Expertise carries over for stonework and earthworks, techniques to build wide also translates to institutional skills needed to build tall...and I'd probably prefer to learn that you need older tree roots to reinforce waterbearing walls without massive use of stone on canals than on dams.

As for trading food, it's much more common than you think. Hell, it's our main trade good, we sell shittons of food, especially non-perishable grains for crafts and luxuries.
 
[X] Disturbing the dead
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)

This is actually a very reasonable taboo for us to have. As for the 'send experts' thing, I think it's a good way to siphon off the lowland village's main advantage- population. There might be some problems if we're encouraging people to adopt our culture, but showing there IS an alternative to the slave-taking warfare cycle might have surprising results.
 
[X] Disturbing the dead
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)


These Things Happens resolves nothing and will just cause social disharmony to grow, which is terrible for our build. Respect of the Dead is frankly a pretty good taboo all things considered.
 
On the matter of a taboo over the dead interfering with the development of medicine, I'm sure that some enterprising doctors will eventually disect someone eventually, and we can just collectively decide that sometimes it's okay, or say that it's a meritous service to donate yourself to medicine after you die, and proper reward will be given to the house of the deceased (and possibly sacrificed at the place of honored dead as well).
 
General
Diplomacy 4
Economy 4
Martial 2

Organizational
Centralization 4
Hierarchy 3

Cultural
Art 3
Mysticism 2

Artistry

Self-expressive flourishes
Specialists

Administrators
Ad-hoc

Entertainers
Amateur group activity
Non-caste semi-specialists

Intellectuals
Elders

Leadership
Non-hereditary specialist

Merchants
Hereditary family

Property
Communal

Warriors
Non-hereditary specialist

New stuff.
 
[X] These things happen
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)

Argh, i fell we are inviting the fox into the Chicken Coop.

For me would clean the stain of lowlanders from this area!
 
We don't know if this group of lowlanders is going to be hostile or not, so i'm worried they might fuck us over and kidnap our people.
 
Taboos about disturbing the dead will stymie medical advances later.
rrrh, this seems like a really good point. If we want people to be more tolerant...
On the matter of a taboo over the dead interfering with the development of medicine, I'm sure that some enterprising doctors will eventually disect someone eventually, and we can just collectively decide that sometimes it's okay, or say that it's a meritous service to donate yourself to medicine after you die, and proper reward will be given to the house of the deceased (and possibly sacrificed at the place of honored dead as well).
But then this could happen just as well. Might be interesting to have the House of the Dead doubling as the House of the Healing.

[X] Disturbing the dead
[X] Sending experts to get them farming correctly (Cannot be taken if blame is placed on the settlers)

We don't know if this group of lowlanders is going to be hostile or not, so i'm worried they might fuck us over and kidnap our people.
I really doubt we would send them without warriors watching over them. That's what the warriors are for.
 
I really don't like the 'disturbing the dead' option.

I'd rather do nothing.

Though in this case, I still wanna beat up the lowlanders so...

[X] The lowlander settlers
[X] Driving them out (Can only be taken if the blame is placed on the settlers)
 
I think the point I disagree with most is that your argument against Dams is that you imply it would be a construct completed all at once and only implemented when finished, instead of what I find more likely that it is built in stages. Where people slowly and methodically close up a river over decades. You forget that superprojects aren't done in only one generation long term projects. These things are going to take several. There will be failures and mistakes, just like they would be with Grand Canal, but they would not be absolute destruction of the people.
But what changed? I don't remember what was wasn't there before.
 
Thus it became the great project of the generation to reorder both villages as well as developing a proper place to give thanks and honour spirits and ancestors. Given its place of beauty, political neutrality, and being close enough to half-way between the two villages, a site near the waterfall that sat along the trip between the two villages was chosen as the location where they would build their place to the spirits. Also, if anyone had an accident on the river above the waterfall, the site was the best place to fish their bodies out and give them a proper burial
"We shall build our holy site here, for it's deep spiritual significance!"
"Plus it's a convenient place to fish all the bodies out of the river."
"That too. Wasn't gonna mention it though..."

2536
 
Back
Top