That's a fair point that I don't think had been mentioned previously, though you got it slightly mixed up, Blackbirds are drawn from warriors and given shaman training(one of the Blackbirds on the Metal Worker mission mentions his wife being envious of the King's tongue skills). Carrion Eaters are drawn from shamans and given warrior training.

Still, Blackbirds are spooky enough that they're slightly distanced from the usual social circles, and certainly further from the usual noble families for now.

...though I suppose give it a few generations and they'd start figuring out a solution.
Blackbirds are generally pulled from the warriors due to their 'shaman-like' tendencies. Youthful experimentation or even bisexuality is likely enough to draw them in, but being introspective or intelligent likely also qualifies. I would gamble that the majority of Blackbirds are still atypical cases, sexually or mentally, compared to regular warriors.
 
Yeah, no, howbout we keep up our baby boom and get ourselves another background secondary action? Study Health is free. Our chiefs will do that in the background. Unless we want to put it as a main action, there's not much reason for us to do it right now.

{M} New Settlement - Eastern Hills
{S} New Trails
{S} Study Metal
First, I'd prefer metalworking soon so as to be able to do things like improving roads, building settlements, building walls, with much more significant ease. Second, I can not, in good conscience, build a settlement out in the open without walls. Third, we don't actually know what study health does. That's quite important, as the effects might be local, or if we're the ones studying them they could span the entire kingdom.

We can also direct study health by pairing it with things that would greatly benefit it, such as study metal or expand warriors. We have very good reason for taking it.

Lastly, as I have said before, we'd need to spend a solid two turns securing a new province. While it would ultimately gain us more action econ, that means we are putting off some potentially very important things we have to do.
 
Study Health. Absolutely Study Health under those circumstances.

It has two chances to proc via synergy there. Once in developing some form of exercise routine that assists Expand Warriors and once where we can find the detrimental effects of Metal Working.

I'm not super sold on the plan in general... But Study Health would be the ideal third choice there.

What about maining Carrion Eater?

[Main] Expan Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] Study Metal
[Secondary] Study Health

We get to study the detrimental effect of metal working, expand our healthcare professionals, and hopefully improve the overall health of the population at the same time.
 
So we are shrouded in mystery and fear but when you actually get there is basically a paradise?

What about the people we turned away or traders? Didn't they say anything?
As far as the lowlanders go, we go to them but they never come to us so they know nothing. As far as the fishers go, they never knew we existed.
They were of course also ludicrously expensive, but they expanded the capacity of the fishers incredibly, and the longer journeys people had gone on had brought them into contact with other fishing villages to the north and west of Redcoast and Newnet, little groups who were vaguely known about but mostly knew the rough terrain to the south-east as 'that place where people disappeared whenever there was a drought'.

She knew little of them, other than that they existed and made exquisite dyes that were coveted by the wealthy and powerful for the vivid colouration, and they were said to have more food than anyone and could accept almost anyone.

First, I'd prefer metalworking soon so as to be able to do things like improving roads, building settlements, building walls, with much more significant ease. Second, I can not, in good conscience, build a settlement out in the open without walls. Third, we don't actually know what study health does. That's quite important, as the effects might be local, or if we're the ones studying them they could span the entire kingdom.

We can also direct study health by pairing it with things that would greatly benefit it, such as study metal or expand warriors. We have very good reason for taking it.

Lastly, as I have said before, we'd need to spend a solid two turns securing a new province. While it would ultimately gain us more action econ, that means we are putting off some potentially very important things we have to do.
I'd hold off being against the wallless province until we hear what has happened to the DP.

Study Health started when we considered applying the treatment we did on the chief to the populace at large. It can and should be assumed that all benefits gained will be spread as widely as resources permit.
 
Remember that it's us that sends the trade missions, not others. That implies that it's our traders going out to other places, so the other groups don't get near as much info on us as we do them.

We didn't send a group to the STs for a long, long time, and thus we never had much info on what they were really like until we actually needed to. I suspect it is the same from other groups. The few of their traders who do buckle down and travel to us come back and say 'It's an amazing place, but they are also really weird', but they don't particularly pay too much attention to what they see.

So they probably hear things like 'The Hill Folk were completely unaffected by the drought, as usual' or 'The plague did nothing to the Hill Folk, as usual', but they have no idea why that works because they never put in the effort to trade with us.

I do find the idea that the negaverses probably use us as the proof of magic to be funny.

'Magic must exist, how do you explain the Hill Folk ignoring plagues and droughts every damn time without it?! Or what about that fucking axe?!'
That's hilarious! I really want more interludes on how other people viewed us, those are always interesting.

(Is magic real or are they just tricks and stuff? It seems like in can be both or either.)

I really like our culture, how down to earth and charitable we are. We just need to back that up with more military might so something like the nomads doesn't happen again.
 
What about maining Carrion Eater?

[Main] Expan Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] Study Metal
[Secondary] Study Health

We get to study the detrimental effect of metal working, expand our healthcare professionals, and hopefully improve the overall health of the population at the same time.
Alternate Suggestion 1:
[Main] Expand Warriors
[Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills

Complementary pair that allows the settlement to be built and supplies warriors to protect it.

[Main] Study Metal
[Main] Survey Lands

Synergistic pair that allows metal to be studied, the results from that informing the survey. The survey will be large enough to cover all of our land, including the new province.

Alternate Suggestion 2:
[Main] Expand Warriors
[Main] Study Metal
Costs 3 Econ, but provides better weapons, ideally, and martial.

Followed by:
[Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[Main] Survey Lands

Uses metal knowledge to survey. Doing survey at same time might benefit settlement by picking the most optimal place to settle, and perhaps by finding relevant sources of metal before farms are built on them.
 
We are three tribes right? We know allot about our original group and some stuff on the coastal group but what about the traders? Do they have any problems we need to fix?
 
Yeah, no, howbout we keep up our baby boom and get ourselves another background secondary action? Study Health is free. Our chiefs will do that in the background. Unless we want to put it as a main action, there's not much reason for us to do it right now.

{M} New Settlement - Eastern Hills
{S} New Trails
{S} Study Metal

Depending on how the coming turn goes, I can get behind this plan.
 
Blackbirds are generally pulled from the warriors due to their 'shaman-like' tendencies. Youthful experimentation or even bisexuality is likely enough to draw them in, but being introspective or intelligent likely also qualifies. I would gamble that the majority of Blackbirds are still atypical cases, sexually or mentally, compared to regular warriors.
Wow no wonder we have so few blackbirds, that shits low, assuming we have like 100,000 people and we have 10% (which is more than would normally occur) of our population as all of these and assuming 100% are blackbirds then that's not many and that's assuming 10% of our population is these atypical cases. when undoubtedly 100% are not blackbirds and there is definitely not 10% of our population being those cases o_O
 
To be fair, we are actually an incredibly flexible civ due to LoO. I suspect that most other groups don't quite have the same level of fluctuation we have from LoO, and most of their stability drops comes from choices about their civ itself (changing writing, leadership problems, etc...). Our people are constantly adjusting to major changes brought in from the outside world, which is a big part of why our stability changes so fast.

But it has the good effect of making our people more open to changes, and much more flexible about a lot of ideas that others most likely struggle to adopt.
Most civilizations probably take stability hits from Economy drops and war losses(remember martial honor traits? they probably punish LOSING war missions too) compared to ours. The stability hits from LoO provides much needed social upheavals to spur innovation in culture...and also we just steal traits from other people after they did all the work refining them.

We went through three heroic kings.

Administrator, Shaman, and Trader culminating in a century long "golden age" for the ymmri. I hiestate to use the term "dynasty" when it really doesn't apply to us.
Funny thing is...the last great Warrior king was Gwygotha and she's culturally known as a word for "Total chaos"
The Dead Priests are the closest to formation fighting of all the known cultures. They are already using massed forces rather than raid forces too.

You know, this is something of a crazy thought, but what about study stars or art patronage to help with expand warriors? Perhaps even expand holy sites?

What we want is to provoke thought with our warriors, ideally. I'm not sure if what we want to gain from this would work, mind. In fact I'm kinda sure it wouldn't. Still, I'm bouncing around ideas. :confused:
Couple of synergy possibilities(though mostly in the form of shaping the innovation roll:
-Art Patronage/Expand Snails/Proclaim Glory - Martial symbolism. Banners, badges of rank, and status. Noisemakers for intimidation and coordination. We already have masks, but that's for our sacred warrior types.
-Build Wall - Innovation in siegecraft, both offensive and defensive. Not necessarily how to take a wall down, but how to surmount a wall without horrendous losses, and how to best man a wall.
-Enforce Authority/Restore Order - Innovation in intimidation methods. Oppression Intensifies.
-Double Main Warriors - Mass combat innovation of some sort to handle the excess of dudes.
-Boats - Sea raiders, though low probability as the entire coast so far is friendly traders.
-Study Health/Forests - Battle stimulants? However, this is explicitly a Carrion Eater thing. You want improved warrior training regimes and drugs, you expand the carrion eaters first. They'd handle it.

We're pretty much a black hole, as far as people are concerned. Refugees flee to us, and then nobody ever hears from them again.

Even the fishing villagers thought we were scary, since their neighbors would pack up during disasters and run towards us, and then never come back.
The Fishers thought we ate them. Hee.
 
Blackbirds are generally pulled from the warriors due to their 'shaman-like' tendencies. Youthful experimentation or even bisexuality is likely enough to draw them in, but being introspective or intelligent likely also qualifies. I would gamble that the majority of Blackbirds are still atypical cases, sexually or mentally, compared to regular warriors.
True. They're somewhat outside family structures anyway, with indoctrination and the like from the shaman training.

Either way, give it a dozen generations and I'm sure some genius would find a way to exploit it. Way of life it is.
First, I'd prefer metalworking soon so as to be able to do things like improving roads, building settlements, building walls, with much more significant ease. Second, I can not, in good conscience, build a settlement out in the open without walls. Third, we don't actually know what study health does. That's quite important, as the effects might be local, or if we're the ones studying them they could span the entire kingdom.
We do actually know what Study Health does. We've unlocked the innoculation from it. I'd say it likely works similarly to Study Stars - we roll to see if we can reveal a hidden quality and interact with it productively.

I think taking it actively is most valuable when we are doing something we know OOC to have a health hazard(i.e. metal research) or when there is an event regarding diseases. In the normal course of things it'd just produce incremental gain in institutional knowledge of diseases, but due to our particular setup, Study Health is also not going to find a lot of preventative work.

Other than those two cases we can probably just leave it to the provinces idle clockcycles, as with Study Stars.
 
A Discussion On Magic By The Nomadverse

Vekki said:
No, the axe is not fucking cursed! Even if the Ymirr have that sort of power, which I'm pretty sure they don't, they were very clear on what they did to the axe!
PwrOfMnd said:
I'm still stunned that people are so quick to believe that magic exists. We've seen absolutely no proof that it is really a thing, and every time we've seen 'magic' get used, there was a perfectly good explanation for it! STs summon a comet and use lightning to strike down their foes? They study astrology and were preping this whole thing the entire time.
Bika said:
How the fuck do you explain the Ymirr then? They are the only group that is outright ignoring the plague right now, they are stated by everyone we ask to live in a magical forest paradise, and they have never, ever, been known to starve.
tenchimany said:
Don't forget the traders that actually do go to them. They all say that they are kin to the divine, and that they can shape the world around them with the same ease a normal group might build a house. Or my favorite, that they sculpted the hills themselves to defend them. That sounds like some elemental bullshit there.
Sea-san said:
Yeah, I wonder if they have some sort of elemental magic? The STs supposedly thought of them as the 'mud folk' at one point, which implies that they control more earthly powers. It also makes sense why the Ymirr seemed to not really like the STs, since the STs were hacks that pretended to be high and mighty mystics who could read the heavens, while the Ymirr actually did have some form of magic.

Mud also implies earth and water, so it might be that they control those two things. The 'sculpting' of the earth and the fact that they never suffer from droughts seems to support that.
RiftZero said:
And we come back to the axe, and we see that every time someone tries to use it, all hell breaks loose. What are the chances that a comet would appear when it emerges twice? Maybe the Ymirr tied it the elements in a way that it draws celestial magic in as well?
Soliddevil said:
Guys, it's just an axe. A shiny, metal axe with nicely drawn symbols, but still just an axe.
ShieldX1234 said:
All these magic deniers haven't offered a single bit of proof that says that it isn't magic. We've got tons of proof from the Ymirr that magic is a thing, but all you can offer as proof that there is no magic is 'it can be explained through science!'

It feels like a reverse form of religion towards creationsim honestly.

Religion: "The creation of the world can be explained through the miracle of god, we don't need to believe science!"

Magic Deniers: "The Star Axe can be explained through science, we don't need to believe in magic!"
redfur said:
Yeah, until I hear some proof of the Ymirr not being able to use magic, when almost every piece of evidence on them we have screams that magic is a thing, I will just ignore any opinion that tries to argue against it.
Citina said:
We should prbably send a trade mission one day to see what they are doing, but diplo is such a useless stat...
 
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True. They're somewhat outside family structures anyway, with indoctrination and the like from the shaman training.

Either way, give it a dozen generations and I'm sure some genius would find a way to exploit it. Way of life it is.

We do actually know what Study Health does. We've unlocked the innoculation from it. I'd say it likely works similarly to Study Stars - we roll to see if we can reveal a hidden quality and interact with it productively.

I think taking it actively is most valuable when we are doing something we know OOC to have a health hazard(i.e. metal research) or when there is an event regarding diseases. In the normal course of things it'd just produce incremental gain in institutional knowledge of diseases, but due to our particular setup, Study Health is also not going to find a lot of preventative work.

Other than those two cases we can probably just leave it to the provinces idle clockcycles, as with Study Stars.

We might get soap out of it on "normal" turns, but mostly agree with you, yes.
 
The Dead Priests are the closest to formation fighting of all the known cultures. They are already using massed forces rather than raid forces too.
Okay but what does this have to do with me? I was replying to someone else being all "lol hoplites won because of their copper weaponry and shields" with "nah, it's cus they had good formations"
A Discussion On Magic By The Nomadverse

I support this.
 
Wow no wonder we have so few blackbirds, that shits low, assuming we have like 100,000 people and we have 10% (which is more than would normally occur) of our population as all of these and assuming 100% are blackbirds then that's not many and that's assuming 10% of our population is these atypical cases. when undoubtedly 100% are not blackbirds and there is definitely not 10% of our population being those cases o_O
Given the way things work, I'm inclined to suppose that our society has some limited selective breeding towards bisexuality, or at least gender fluidity, as atypical sexual preferences. Those individuals, who are still capable of and even amenable to marrying, would be highly sought after for their positions, and the genetic quirks that make unusual preferences more likely would be passed down more often.
 
True. They're somewhat outside family structures anyway, with indoctrination and the like from the shaman training.

Either way, give it a dozen generations and I'm sure some genius would find a way to exploit it. Way of life it is.

We do actually know what Study Health does. We've unlocked the innoculation from it. I'd say it likely works similarly to Study Stars - we roll to see if we can reveal a hidden quality and interact with it productively.

I think taking it actively is most valuable when we are doing something we know OOC to have a health hazard(i.e. metal research) or when there is an event regarding diseases. In the normal course of things it'd just produce incremental gain in institutional knowledge of diseases, but due to our particular setup, Study Health is also not going to find a lot of preventative work.

Other than those two cases we can probably just leave it to the provinces idle clockcycles, as with Study Stars.
Almost every plan being floated around has us studying metal. That is one place where it would help, as you said.

I'm interested in one plan that was floated which had Main Carrion Eaters + Secondary Study metal + Secondary study health.
 
What about maining Carrion Eater?

[Main] Expan Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] Study Metal

That would ruin us mystically

Also People, just to remind you

we still need to raise that FUCKING Stability at least at 2 so that we won't be fucked by another comet appearing or another LoO trigger or whatever else the dice gods can create
 
Given the way things work, I'm inclined to suppose that our society has some limited selective breeding towards bisexuality, or at least gender fluidity, as atypical sexual preferences. Those individuals, who are still capable of and even amenable to marrying, would be highly sought after for their positions, and the genetic quirks that make unusual preferences more likely would be passed down more often.

Plus group selection is a thing, IIRC, so them helping society which accepts such people to survive probably has indirect effect on the total number of gender fluid or just...'strange', how their compatriots would call them, people.
 
Given the way things work, I'm inclined to suppose that our society has some limited selective breeding towards bisexuality, or at least gender fluidity, as atypical sexual preferences. Those individuals, who are still capable of and even amenable to marrying, would be highly sought after for their positions, and the genetic quirks that make unusual preferences more likely would be passed down more often.
That's extremely unlikely, especially since they'd just end up straight anyways, most bisexuals end up in straight relationships, as well as being the least likely sexuality out of all of them
Nevermind all the immigrants likely thinking negatively of those sexualities on top of there being evidence of bias against them in the updates
 
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@Academia Nut Blackbirds, Carrion Eaters, and Shamans are allowed to have children, right?

@Ghostdevil I'm shocked and horrified at your disregard for bi people and the way you think they "end up as straight" as if the person they're dating determines their sexuality.

Also, they'd need to date or at least *cough* with people of the opposite sex to have kids. Which needn't mean that PoM's point is incorrect, just that people who lean significantly more toward homosexuality would be underrepresented in the population. (Which isn't really surprising nor important for the ultimate output of gays into the population, as current research is leaning more toward an in-womb environmental aspect to homosexuality in both men and women, which is probably genetically passed but depends on the mother's line.)
 
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That would ruin us mystically

Also People, just to remind you

we still need to raise that FUCKING Stability at least at 2 so that we won't be fucked by another comet appearing or another LoO trigger or whatever else the dice gods can create

Good fucking luck convincing people to increase stability before it is needed; last, what, 10 times nobody gave a shit and conveniently forgot about all the opportunities(EDIT: or at least safety margin in case of comet or whatever) spare stability to burn gives.
 
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