Paths of Civilization

[hylas240]

Since the majority seems so heavily in favor of saying no, dedicating a place to spirits, and organizing our settlements we should discuss our next moves. Rate major projects by priority and stuff just to get a clearer picture.

 

[Citino]

Since the majority seems so heavily in favor of saying no, dedicating a place to spirits, and organizing our settlements we should discuss our next moves. Rate major projects by priority and stuff just to get a clearer picture.

Click to shrink...

Walls would have synergy with organizing, so that's high on the list.

Starting a grand project might also be useful, since the sooner we start, the sooner we get benefits from it. Not to mention impressing everyone else around us even more.

Step-farms are something we've been looking at getting for awhile, and could help us with any food trouble that might pop up.

Dye would help both the traders and sea folk grow faster, and help our culture score a bit as well, without having to rely on religion as so many people fear.

Roads help everyone. They are awesome. That is all.

 

[Umi-san]

Since the majority seems so heavily in favor of saying no, dedicating a place to spirits, and organizing our settlements we should discuss our next moves. Rate major projects by priority and stuff just to get a clearer picture.

Click to shrink...

Projects by priority:
Major/Mega in order:
Step Farms
Dam Megaproject
Establish Settlement
Canal Megaproject

Minor:
Improve Trail
Domesticate Snails
Establish Annual Festival
Expand Managed Forests
Build Wall - Valley
Trade Mission
Expand Pasture
New Settlement
Expand Fishing
Build Wall - Coast

I tried to arrange the Minor tasks in economic/non-economic pairs, so that there will always be an economic activity counterbalancing the cost of the megaprojects. Improve Trail and Domesticate Snails are key to me, because they positively impact the fishers and will help more closely intertwine us as a whole. I prioritize the Festival, Forests, and Wall above trade missions and the new settlement. The festival helps promote our culture and unity. The Forests provide erosion prevention, a place to go to be away from people, and forage - I also just don't want us to stick solely to farming, tbh. The wall provides security in case the lowlanders end up re-emerging as a threat, or in case the spirit talkers develop as one.

Tbh, I don't really see the point of expanding fishing along the coast. I'd rather develop our sailboats better, and fishing ships don't develop that as much as a trade mission would. But maybe it would be better to expand fishing and THEN do the trade mission, so that our knowledge of the coast and of boats would ensure the security of the trade ship.

 

[Umi-san]

Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Extra benefit if after or during Organize Settlement)
Dedicate Place to Spirits - The people have increasingly much to be thankful for, and while individual observations of respect for the supernatural continues, perhaps something more grand to represent the group as a whole is required
Domesticate Snails - The snails that can have their shells processed into a vibrant dye have long resisted being directly managed, but with the expertise in land, water, plant and animal management they might be made to live as cattle and sheep live
Establish Annual Festival - People already like to celebrate at certain times of the year, but with the level of control over food distribution a new and particularly lavish festival can be established
Expand Farms - The people have brought an enormous amount of land under cultivation in the valley, but there is more available in more marginal areas, and in the forests around the fishing village
Expand Fishing - There are managed cultivation zones along the shore, and dedicating more people to the tasks can increase the yields of fish and luxuries brought in
Expand Pasture - While the traders mostly just take their animals where there is good grazing, specific areas can be set aside around the settlements that can be made ideal for the protected grazing of herds
Expand Managed Forests - The forests atop the hills surrounding your valley are now an integral part of your water management system as well as providing materials and the occasional bit of game. Expanding onto the back side of the hills can only bring more benefit
Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
Improve Trail - The path between the valley and the sea has been cut by generations of travellers, but the dirt path is easily disrupted by rain. Infrastructure improvements could be done to reduce this damage
New Settlement - The land is not particularly good for farming in between the valley and the sea, but there are places where a settlement could be set up, serving as a stop over point along the journey between the two settlements (If chosen during or after an Organize Settlement action, automatically Organized)
Organize Settlement - Because everyone contributes to the whole, the borders of fields could be reworked. Perhaps a similar principle can be applied to the buildings in which people dwell [King]
Step-Farms - Bringing the irrigation systems to its limit, the hills can be sculpted into a series of steps, each step supporting a farm plot, the run off from a higher farm irrigating the farms lower down [Gardeners][King]
Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world

Mega-Projects - Mega-Projects can require many generations to complete, take an unknown amount of time to do so, and drain Econ while active, but can produce massive benefits once complete. Once chosen, the occupy the Main Focus slot until either completed or stopped early. Early stopping once started does not refund any of the investments and increases social strife. To reduce confusion, mega-projects are not listed as part of the voting project list and must be "written-in".
Grand Canal - The hills between the valley and the sea are rough and the rivers there fast and wild. In one man's dream there is the vision of an artifical river cut through the land, tame and managed [Gardeners][King]
Great Dam - The river can run wild and dangerous when the rains come strong, but could it not be controlled by the same principles by which the water on the hills is channelled and contained, merely on a larger scale? [Gardeners][King]

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Here's the list of things.
@Academia Nut Would you please go to the effort of adding and maintaining an up-to-date list of available projects on the post with our other stats and traits?

 

[hylas240]

Walls would have synergy with organizing, so that's high on the list.

Starting a grand project might also be useful, since the sooner we start, the sooner we get benefits from it. Not to mention impressing everyone else around us even more.

Step-farms are something we've been looking at getting for awhile, and could help us with any food trouble that might pop up.

Dye would help both the traders and sea folk grow faster, and help our culture score a bit as well, without having to rely on religion as so many people fear.

Roads help everyone. They are awesome. That is all.

Click to shrink...

We have no looming threat though to justify building the walls over developing our infrastructure and economy. The spirit talkers are very far away and not hostile yet, and the lowlanders are almost non existent now.

I'm hesitant on the great projects as an immediate action, since developing our tech by taking other developing actions like building step farms and constructing wall would greatly increase our tech (and therefore significantly reduce the difficulty of building a dam and increase the quality of the result). Though you do have a huge point on the impressiveness of the great works.

Step farms are really important since it increases our farm-able land by so damn much. It also increases the amount of food we have to keep our generous rep and trade with others.

I agree on the Dyes.

Roads would greatly improve our trading prospects, increase our internal transportation, and increase our centralization tolerance.

 

[Umi-san]

We have no looming threat though to justify building the walls over developing our infrastructure and economy. The spirit talkers are very far away and not hostile yet, and the lowlanders are almost non existent now.

I'm hesitant on the great projects as an immediate action, since developing our tech by taking other developing actions like building step farms and constructing wall would greatly increase our tech (and therefore significantly reduce the difficulty of building a dam and increase the quality of the result). Though you do have a huge point on the impressiveness of the great works.

Step farms are really important since it increases our farm-able land by so damn much. It also increases the amount of food we have to keep our generous rep and trade with others.

I agree on the Dyes.

Roads would greatly improve our trading prospects, increase our internal transportation, and increase our centralization tolerance.

Click to shrink...

I agree that doing more minor projects would decrease the difficulty of building a dam, but feel that we'd probably also develop the necessary skills as we do it - which is why in my plan the Dam would start before we end up building the wall. Do you think it would be better to just do both walls at once and then start the megaprojects, despite the lack of perceived threat?

 

[SpeckofStardust]

I agree that doing more minor projects would decrease the difficulty of building a dam, but feel that we'd probably also develop the necessary skills as we do it - which is why the Dam would start before we end up building the wall. Do you think it would be better to just do both walls at once and then start the megaprojects, despite the lack of perceived threat?

Click to shrink...

The Dam should be the last project we do in all reality.

 

[VoidZero]

A big dam is the same as well endowed, very big respect for the civ that did it.

 

[hylas240]

Projects by priority:
Major/Mega in order:
Step Farms
Dam Megaproject
Establish Settlement
Canal Megaproject

Minor:
Improve Trail
Domesticate Snails
Establish Annual Festival
Expand Managed Forests
Build Wall - Valley
Trade Mission
Expand Pasture
New Settlement
Expand Fishing
Build Wall - Coast

I tried to arrange the Minor tasks in economic/non-economic pairs, so that there will always be an economic activity counterbalancing the cost of the megaprojects. Improve Trail and Domesticate Snails are key to me, because they positively impact the fishers and will help more closely intertwine us as a whole. I prioritize the Festival, Forests, and Wall above trade missions and the new settlement. The festival helps promote our culture and unity. The Forests provide erosion prevention, a place to go to be away from people, and forage - I also just don't want us to stick solely to farming, tbh. The wall provides security in case the lowlanders end up re-emerging as a threat, or in case the spirit talkers develop as one.

Tbh, I don't really see the point of expanding fishing along the coast. I'd rather develop our sailboats better, and fishing ships don't develop that as much as a trade mission would. But maybe it would be better to expand fishing and THEN do the trade mission, so that our knowledge of the coast and of boats would ensure the security of the trade ship.

Click to shrink...

I wonder if we'll be able to settle the lowlander's old territory....I sincerely doubt they would be able to deny us anything. Building the Great Dam while also building roads would be a great stop gap measure until we build the Great Canal. I feel that manage forests are a little more important than the festival though. Since we're gonna guild the step farms the amount of hill farmland we'll have is gonna go up up up. Expanding the water management system to the other side of hills would go really nicely with the step farms.

 

[SpeckofStardust]

A big dam is the same as well endowed, very big respect for the civ that did it.

Click to shrink...

it also makes it a tempting target for anyone looking to bring glory to there own civ.

 

[notgreat]

Since the majority seems so heavily in favor of saying no, dedicating a place to spirits, and organizing our settlements we should discuss our next moves. Rate major projects by priority and stuff just to get a clearer picture.

Click to shrink...

It should be noted that if we count [Primary] as 2x [Secondary] votes for that thing, Step-Farms is only a bit behind Organize Settlement-Coast. (and that's a reasonable thing to do considering a Primary is considered roughly equal to 2 Secondaries according to here.)

 

[VoidZero]

it also makes it a tempting target for anyone looking to bring glory to there own civ.

Click to shrink...

We are a tempting target regardless, 3 group of people in 1 convenient alliance. With 2 separate settlement that produces much food and luxury.

 

[hylas240]

I agree that doing more minor projects would decrease the difficulty of building a dam, but feel that we'd probably also develop the necessary skills as we do it - which is why in my plan the Dam would start before we end up building the wall. Do you think it would be better to just do both walls at once and then start the megaprojects, despite the lack of perceived threat?

Click to shrink...

The problem is we aren't really aware of the other civs yet. The only ones we know of are the spirit talkers and the lowlanders. When we start a trade mission to new large civs we might encounter a hostile group...which will be bad if they have sailing. Though I don't think building the walls are a priority vs the mega projects.

Ninja edit-

If we encounter any new civs while we're building step farms or somsething then i'd want to build a wall according to the civs strength. If they've got a navy we should build a wall on the coast for example. Then we could start a mega project.

 

[SpeckofStardust]

The next things we should do is forest, road, new settlement, organization of settlements, and canal. Then the dam.

 

[Tylonius]

Perhaps next turn we should Primary the Step Farms, and Secondary the Dyes and Road?

INB4 something comes up we need to deal with or want more.

 

[Umi-san]

The Dam should be the last project we do in all reality.

Click to shrink...

I think the Canal should be, tbh. Having the dam would just make building the canal so, so much easier. While if the Canal was already built a lot of the damage the dam failing would do would be reduced, the actual construction of the Canal is likely to be a lot more manpower intensive, considering it stretches all the way to the sea. Furthermore, it would need to be maintained all along that stretch - where the dam is generally going to be a finish project - so having the tech boost building the dam would give us is better.
In my mind, regardless of what we build, we need to start building the megaprojects sooner, so that they can be finished while they're still impressive to others. Also, the economic benefit they provide when complete is immense.

What projects would you consider satisfactory prerequisites for building the dam?

I wonder if we'll be able to settle the lowlander's old territory....I sincerely doubt they would be able to deny us anything. Building the Great Dam while also building roads would be a great stop gap measure until we build the Great Canal. I feel that manage forests are a little more important than the festival though. Since we're gonna guild the step farms the amount of hill farmland we'll have is gonna go up up up. Expanding the water management system to the other side of hills would go really nicely with the step farms.

Click to shrink...

I think that we would be able to settle the lowlander's old territory, but part of me feels it would be better to develop the territory we already have. If we're strong internally, we can conquer expand much easier, despite the likelihood that a resistant population might have developed. Or we could just try to expand pasturage and forests all across the lowlands...

The problem is we aren't really aware of the other civs yet. The only ones we know of are the spirit talkers and the lowlanders. When we start a trade mission to new large civs we might encounter a hostile group...which will be bad if they have sailing. Though I don't think building the walls are a priority vs the mega projects.

Click to shrink...

Is this in regard to building walls or the impressive af dam? I think that building the wall on the coast might be a bigger issue IF the spirit talkers don't seem like a threat. It's much easier for piracy and raids to occur on the sea than on the land.

it also makes it a tempting target for anyone looking to bring glory to there own civ.

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As in, they'd attack us? They'd attack us anyways, probably, if they're powerful enough to do so and close enough that we're worth adding.

 

[Umi-san]

The next things we should do is forest, road, new settlement, organization of settlements, and canal. Then the dam.

Click to shrink...

Why not domesticate snails for export benefits? The organization is already scheduled to occur this turn.

 

[hylas240]

I think the Canal should be, tbh. Having the dam would just make building the canal so, so much easier. While if the Canal was already built a lot of the damage the dam failing would do would be reduced, the actual construction of the Canal is likely to be a lot more manpower intensive, considering it stretches all the way to the sea. Furthermore, it would need to be maintained all along that stretch - where the dam is generally going to be a finish project - so having the tech boost building the dam would give us is better.
In my mind, regardless of what we build, we need to start building the megaprojects sooner, so that they can be finished while they're still impressive to others. Also, the economic benefit they provide when complete is immense.

What projects would you consider satisfactory prerequisites for building the dam?


I think that we would be able to settle the lowlander's old territory, but part of me feels it would be better to develop the territory we already have. If we're strong internally, we can conquer expand much easier, despite the likelihood that a resistant population might have developed. Or we could just try to expand pasturage and forests all across the lowlands...

Is this in regard to building walls or the impressive af dam? I think that building the wall on the coast might be a bigger issue IF the spirit talkers don't seem like a threat. It's much easier for piracy and raids to occur on the sea than on the land.

As in, they'd attack us? They'd attack us anyways, probably, if they're powerful enough to do so and close enough that we're worth adding.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, forgot to put in my explanation. I'm worried that if we commit to a mega project it'll make it really difficult to react if an outside threat shows up. If we stop the mega project to deal with pirates or a raiding army marching up the valley people will be really upset.

Building the walls would be really really good for learning how to construct a big ass dam and it would cover our ass in case of an attack from outsiders. I'd really really not have to halt the project in case of an emergency.

 

[Umi-san]

Sorry, forgot to put in my explanation. I'm worried that if we commit to a mega project it'll make it really difficult to react if an outside threat shows up. If we stop the mega project to deal with pirates or a raiding army marching up the valley people will be really upset.

Building the walls would be really really good for learning how to construct a big ass dam and it would cover our ass in case of an attack from outsiders. I'd really really not have to halt the project in case of an emergency.

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Were such a vote to occur, I would agree to it. Maybe a good choice would be Organize & Believe this turn; Step, Roads & Domestication next turn; Settle, Walls & Walls after that, and then Dam, Forests & Fishing?

Settle as a major, because that would develop the new place fully. It all depends on the spiriters tho.

 

[Sivantic]

We also have to keep in mind that is that we can't focus on projects that help only one group. For instance. This turn we doing Spirits for everyone, but projects only for the farmers and the fishers leaving the traders behind.

I personally want to have the Roads be the Major project to make up for it and allow travel to take a lot faster than the month long travel that it is right now. For minor projects Step-farms as it's important for reasons I've argued before but it's okay if it takes a little longer, and Walls, valley, as a precaution to anything that comes from that direction

Not concrete, but don't forget that we are not just farmers now.

 

[hylas240]

Yeah, having build roads as a major actions will definitely be better than having step farms as a major. I can't really see how a major action will improve step farms more. Settling a new area will greatly increase the amount of land we have to farm as well as possibly unlock new resources (not to mention help solve our centralization tolerance problems). We can decide if we build walls later based on how things develop, but a Great Dam seems better right now vs a Canal. The roads we build will help travel and trade so it'll hold our population over on that end until we build the canal.

 

[Malevolo]

The next things we should do is forest, road, new settlement, organization of settlements, and canal. Then the dam.

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The settlement already be organized because we will be setting the precedent with organizing the valley and the coast that every community we do, needs to be planned, moreover we can dedicate the new settlement to be our new trade hub after building the road. But the problem will be policing the extension of the road because of the trade that will flow to it.

And after we build the new settlement, we can turn the valley settlement in holyland.

 

[minerva-n-memes]

I'm pretty damn sure we're in the hilly area of the Fertile Crescent, since the sea village got the purplish dye from ground up shells. The only shells that give that color were historically found in Tyre, which was on the cost of the Fertile Crescent.

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Yeah, it would make sense if we're in the Fertile Crescent, esp. given all the trees in the surrounding areas right now.

The Levant used to have A LOT more trees before massive deforestation caused by all the different empires (usually for shipbuilding and buildings) flipped the climate into being mostly a desert ecology.

The big thing, if we want to maintain being stewards of the land AND become a naval power one day, is that we're going to have to find a way to grow artificial forests, separate from the ones we're sustaining and protecting now. (otherwise, becoming a naval power will mean a shitload of social maluses)

Crop-forests of trees should be our sole source for building ships unless there's a severe emergency that requires us to cut into the forests we help to maintain.

If we did this eventually, the best places for it, both logistically and in order to minimize water and wind erosion, would be by the coasts. Shipbuilders wouldn't have to go far to gather the necessary resources to build more ships and it would preserve the land of the not!phoneticians.

 

[SpeckofStardust]

The settlement already be organized because we will be setting the precedent with organizing the valley and the coast that every community we do, needs to be planned, moreover we can dedicate the new settlement to be our new trade hub after building the road. But the problem will be policing the extension of the road because of the trade that will flow to it.

And after we build the new settlement, we can turn the valley settlement in holyland.

Click to shrink...

then replace organization with step farms.

 

[hylas240]

Yeah, it would make sense if we're in the Fertile Crescent, esp. given all the trees in the surrounding areas right now.

The Levant used to have A LOT more trees before massive deforestation caused by all the different empires (usually for shipbuilding and buildings) flipped the climate into being mostly a desert ecology.

The big thing, if we want to maintain being stewards of the land AND become a naval power one day, is that we're going to have to find a way to grow artificial forests, separate from the ones we're sustaining and protecting now. (otherwise, becoming a naval power will mean a shitload of social maluses)

Crop-forests of trees should be our sole source for building ships unless there's a severe emergency that requires us to cut into the forests we help to maintain.

If we did this eventually, the best places for it, both logistically and in order to minimize water and wind erosion, would be by the coasts. Shipbuilders wouldn't have to go far to gather the necessary resources to build more ships and it would preserve the land of the not!phoneticians.

Click to shrink...

If we're going by civs that corresponds with history, then our sea village would've been Polynesia. I'm concerned that Assyria would be deeper into the valley and would repeat their stupidity (or maybe hoping they will). If anyone is wondering what they did, they used salt water for irrigation and ruined all their farmland...leading to the collapse of Mesopotamia.

I agree that establishing forests would be great for naval supremacy. We'll also need to improve our construction tech so we can build ships more easily. Building the walls and the Great Dam would improve our tech in that area immensely, and the Great canal would be really important towards naval supremacy as well.