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Paths of Civilization

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[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be
 
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be
 
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be
 
BTW: For those who haven't considered this, the econ we get from LoO has to come from somewhere. I suspect that it's actually stealing econ from them. And the stability loss will be from them possibly hitting negative econ.

Candesce said:
I think it's an innovation we have no other source for.
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That's fair, though I disagree. What do you think it is though? Seems to me like some sort of improved record-keeping, which we've seen we can get from several other places as well.
 
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be
 
DocMatoi said:
[X] Welcome in those who would wish to escape (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
It is our way to accept those who come to us. Should they come, we will take them.
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Normally I'd agree with you, but we are very obviously having integration and homogeneity issues. These issues with corrupt chiefs are partially a symptom of that. We need to allow our society to settle a little before we continue. We have a fuckhuge baby boom starting, so we really don't need the Econ. Doing things just because we've always done them doesn't really do us any good.

Edit: On that note, this baby boom could actually be what we need. A huge cohort all growing up together and being taught the same things? That's some goddamn unification right there.

On the bright side, we are seeing the impact of GG here. There's no downside for not bringing in people. YAY!

[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be

As for next turn: I'm basing everything on this:
Academia Nut said:
Special: Baby Boom activated. Until capacity is reached or the environmental factors change will receive a free Expand Economy action for every provincial action (currently projected to be 3 next turn)
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If we keep building new settlements, we will keep our boom going. Given that we know we have some extra time on our hands to deal with the DP, I propose this:

[Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[Secondary] New Trails
[Secondary] Expand Forest - Eastern Hills

Basically just leveraging our econ boom to the max. We know that our chiefs will build new settlements, so building them ourselves within the provinces, especially when we know we are going to be above 6 Econ is a waste of an action. Setting up the new province leverages that ability even further to extend the baby boom. The New Trails is there to mitigate centralization losses, and could be doubled up on if we wanted. Expand Forest isn't strictly necessary, but, it will have to be planted at some point. More importantly, the forest should help mitigate the drying issues that plague the Eastern Hills. (Increased shade and transpiration from the plants)

The Expand Forest secondary could feasibly be replaced with a second New Trails, a Festival, Walls, or Trade Mission - Whomever you please. All of these would leverage our boom nicely and fit well into a new province.
 
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Sivantic said:
I assume nothing of the sort. Only that there is now a chance of stability gain instead of loss now.

Seeing as we've never had a chance to use it yet. I'd hesitate to give any sort of number for now.
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You're missing my point. The way you're presenting it leads other people to assume that the chance is 30ish%, which means they vote with faulty info.
 
Analysis!

Diplomacy 9->6
Economy 4->2 (+6)
Martial 6->6 (+1)
Centralization 5->4

Pretty much all expected returns from what we picked last turn with a bonus economy thing

Stability -1->0

Festival gains worked out

Technologically, it's interesting that our military has Plank carts, but it has not yet reached civilian usage, copper being too costly and we hadn't discovered a metal-free construction method for them yet.

Fitted joints and dowels should come after copper tools to shape wood fortunately. Just a matter of time.

Academia Nut said:
Study Stars - Valleyhome
New Settlement, Southern Coast - Redshore
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We get to see provincial actions now.
Valleyhome's Mysticism gains doesn't seem to be credited yet though.
And we only have 2 actions

The king sunk his face into his hands. What had convinced his predecessor to switch out the way writing worked for this new system? It worked, but now sorting out old records was an absolute nightmare, which was particularly bad for trying to figure out long term assignments and contracts and all the things that writing was good for and best when kept consistent.
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And so we might develop the use of Logographic for contract writing and legal codes where clarity and consistency is prized.

Hopefully anyways.
There was considerable pressure to simply make a lot of responsibilities hereditary, to hand down who worked what land through families and only bother with reassignment when a family line petered out or there were more new people in a family than land to work and a new spot needed to be assigned. This was also more familiar to the people who had only arrived in the past few generations, and for the fishers.
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Hereditary pressures continue. Probably a consequence of recent Stability swings.

There had also been a few recent scandals involving local chiefs repeatedly reassigning people different plots of land over short sequences in order to direct the credit for pioneering or excellent management from the people who did the work to their friends and relatives, thus taking away bonus food and luxury rations for good work from the people who actually deserved them.
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...are they cheating the system with last hit bonuses?!

There was a strong clamor from those affected to have mechanisms in place to make the transference of land management be much harder and thus avoid these forms of corruption. It would also undoubtedly transfer power away from the sprawling networks of political friendships and favours among the local chiefs and subchiefs, who didn't necessarily have to have any significant personal achievements to their name in order to gain influence, just to be born with their parents knowing the right people.

The council was obviously ambivalent about all of this, in that while it would probably result in them losing power, but while they still had power they could also set up their descendants quite nicely by insuring that they had guaranteed inheritances. Of course, there was also a strong strain of tradition against such actions, but then again tradition hadn't restrained lower level politicians from being greedy and short sighted.
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Hmm, if our hierarchy wasn't capped, a solution might have been to track relative progress. Track how big a portion of work each family/individual did on a project so they get paid out even if they transfer away.

Classic nepotism.
For once though the Dead Priests seemed to be on the back foot and in serious trouble, with their attempt at intimidating the relative newcomers of the Thunder Horse resulting in several high ranking priests having their heads mounted on a pole on the Thunder Horse chief's chariot, which turned into significant backlash against the Dead Priests, with news of some minor villages deciding to break away - or at least declare that they weren't going to send off their tributes without an escort, which amounted to telling the Dead Priests that they would have to actively participate in acquisition rather than passively expecting tribute. It was definite trouble, especially with the Highlanders taking a swing at their old enemy after catching their breath.
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Mwahaha.
Intimidating Warrior Culture didn't work so good, and tribute pressure means their warriors are stuck running escort duties.

This all is good for us.

Some of the advisers actually suggested that if the People were to send emissaries along with their regular trading missions and suggest that some of these villages were to leave the danger of the lowlands for the hills that it might cost the Dead Priests further legitimacy among these groups. It would mean another influx of immigrants at a time when the People were still trying to integrate the last several batches, but... but if they could get the Dead Priests fighting among each other...
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Provoking another immigration wave?

I'm dubious about it. Let the Highlanders and Thunder Horse double team the DPs. We don't have the stability to soak another wave yet.

In one bright spot of news the shamans had declared an auspicious alignment of the stars, and the weather had been remarkably stable and conducive to farming, leading to unexpectedly massive harvests. Combined with fewer children growing ill and they were predicting a massive increase in population over the next few generations.

Special: Baby Boom activated. Until capacity is reached or the environmental factors change will receive a free Expand Economy action for every provincial action (currently projected to be 3 next turn)
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Kickass!
And also another disincentive for taking a migrant wave. We'd run out of economy slots unless we focused heavily on migration.

We're getting crazy good results from Study Stars.


Integration of the fishing minors is not going as well as it could...
[] The situation will sort itself out (Chance of stability loss)

Not a good time to eat Stability hits.

[] Sweeten the deal for the local chiefs (Additional -1 Diplomacy and -1 Centralization)

Not a good idea I think. Precedent of bribing chiefs into cooperation is a bad trend.

[] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)

However we DO have the Economy to do this. And boats mean ship innovation rolls, plus refunding the cost next turn.

Dealing with property problems...
[] The old ways have worked well enough for us in the past

Maintain status quo...conservative option.
Lets corruption continue

[] Assigning land management along family lines would simplify things (+1 Stability)

Boost immediate gains for long term costs. Hereditary land management gets messier, not tidier over time as families grow and shrink.

[] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)

This eats a risk, but possibly helps us develop new techniques to counter cheating and abuse. The stability hit reads like a 50% chance though.

Dead Priests are in trouble...
[] Leave them be
[] Welcome in those who would wish to escape (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[] Give them a nudge by inviting in more (-2 Stability, -1 Diplomacy, +4-5 Econ, chance the Dead Priests lose more Stability)

We have a Baby Boom. There's basically no reason to do this, we'd run out of expansion slots by next turn otherwise. Let the eagles fight it out while we Grow.

Besides, Eastern Hills settlement should let us take advantage of baby boom AND takes advantage of the situation.

So my vote:
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be
 
Sivantic said:
Something to remember though...

The Omegahugger in me thinks we can pull both of them off.

[] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[] Give them a nudge by inviting in more (-2 Stability, -1 Diplomacy, +4-5 Econ, chance the Dead Priests lose more Stability)

The people might recognize that we are doing this for everyone's betterment.

Especially with how little we agree with the Death Priests, bringing in more people to mess with them could grant us stability instead...
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why are you voting for a significant chance of cultural suicide? the most likely outcome is -3 stability and we're only at 0 stability
 
pbluekan said:
Normally I'd agree with you, but we are very obviously having integration and homogeneity issues. These issues with corrupt chiefs are partially a symptom of that. We need to allow our society to settle a little before we continue. We have a massive baby boom starting, so we really don't need the Econ. Doing things just because we've always done them doesn't really do us any good.

On the bright side, we are seeing the impact of GG here. There's no downside for not bringing in people. YAY!

[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be

As for next turn: I'm basing everything on this:


If we keep building new settlements, we will keep our boom going. Given that we know we have some extra time on our hands to deal with the DP, I propose this:

[Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[Secondary] New Trails
[Secondary] Expand Forest - Eastern Hills

Basically just leveraging our econ boom to the max. We know that our chiefs will build new settlements, so building them ourselves within the provinces, especially when we know we are going to be above 6 Econ is a waste of an action. Setting up the new province leverages that ability even further to extend the baby boom. The New Trails is there to mitigate centralization losses, and could be doubled up on if we wanted. Expand Forest isn't strictly necessary, but, it will have to be planted at some point. More importantly, the forest should help mitigate the drying issues that plague the Eastern Hills. (Increased shade and transpiration from the plants)
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I'd definitely be on board with that if our stability isn't negative. The forest would be great if the TH flip and start attacking us too (if we crit fail a diplo roll).
 
In simplest terms, people are assholes. If they try real hard, some of them can aspire not to be assholes (but they still will be). A realist's model of government accepts that in 90% of cases, the individuals who can have power over other individuals will commit acts of nepotism, favoritism, and strive for the personal acquisition of wealth, and works around those problems by limiting how much corruption they can get away with.

Using the old system has clearly failed. Using hereditary land ownership will significantly alter the social ethos of the People. Hopefully, what will be discovered is communal direct democracy on a small scale. The people who control who works what land are chosen from among the people who work the land. Moderately less educated farmers are less capable of creating clever situations like what's happened now, but they do know how to farm, the one thing they'd be elected for.
mastigos said:
why are you voting for a significant chance of cultural suicide? the most likely outcome is -3 stability and we're only at 0 stability
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-3 is still functional. It's dipping into -4 that causes collapse.
 
pbluekan said:
Normally I'd agree with you, but we are very obviously having integration and homogeneity issues. These issues with corrupt chiefs are partially a symptom of that. We need to allow our society to settle a little before we continue. We have a fuckhuge baby boom starting, so we really don't need the Econ. Doing things just because we've always done them doesn't really do us any good.

On the bright side, we are seeing the impact of GG here. There's no downside for not bringing in people. YAY!

[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be

As for next turn: I'm basing everything on this:


If we keep building new settlements, we will keep our boom going. Given that we know we have some extra time on our hands to deal with the DP, I propose this:

[Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[Secondary] New Trails
[Secondary] Expand Forest - Eastern Hills

Basically just leveraging our econ boom to the max. We know that our chiefs will build new settlements, so building them ourselves within the provinces, especially when we know we are going to be above 6 Econ is a waste of an action. Setting up the new province leverages that ability even further to extend the baby boom. The New Trails is there to mitigate centralization losses, and could be doubled up on if we wanted. Expand Forest isn't strictly necessary, but, it will have to be planted at some point. More importantly, the forest should help mitigate the drying issues that plague the Eastern Hills. (Increased shade and transpiration from the plants)

The Expand Forest secondary could feasibly be replaced with a second New Trails, a Festival, Walls, or Trade Mission - Whomever you please. All of these would leverage our boom nicely and fit well into a new province.
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There was a hint that we need to expand Black Soil in the update if we want to keep up expanding forest, so I think we can wait on trails until next turn.
 
hylas240 said:
Right! Totally forgot about that.

[Main] Settlement - eastern hills
[Secondary] New trails
[Secondary] Festival

This would give us another providence while the trails keep our centralization nice and steady...all the while our festival puts our stability in the black.
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This is something I would support. If our stability is fine I might prefer to do something like Study Metals instead. It depends. (I miss Restore Harmony... we could use it to bring out stability high w/o an eventual cap. *cries*)
Aka I support @notgreat's plan. Though an equally viable choice would be Expand Forest - Eastern Hills, or Build Wall - Eastern Hills, or Study Forest, as it has never been chosen.
Edit: @tryrar we could drop Expand Forest instead. I'd rather keep our cent as high as possible and risk the starting settlement being exposed.
veekie said:
Hmm, if our hierarchy wasn't capped, a solution might have been to track relative progress. Track how big a portion of work each family/individual did on a project so they get paid out even if they transfer away.
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It's not capped but just before it caps, AN said.
 
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hmm. yeah, im suddenly scared of that -2 stab. lets go with
[X] veekie
Also, we need to expand our soil
 
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veekie said:
The stability hit reads like a 50% chance though.
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I'd assume worse than 50%, personally. -1 Stability isn't so bad in the abstract that I'd judge even low % chances to be significant, so I'd guess this is around 75%. Possibly the same roll as the innovation - i.e., get either an improvement or a stability hit.
notgreat said:
For those who haven't considered this, the econ we get from LoO has to come from somewhere.
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Given we use up economic expansion charges every time it happens...
 
Powerofmind said:
In simplest terms, people are assholes. If they try real hard, some of them can aspire not to be assholes (but they still will be). A realist's model of government accepts that in 90% of cases, the individuals who can have power over other individuals will commit acts of nepotism, favoritism, and strive for the personal acquisition of wealth, and works around those problems by limiting how much corruption they can get away with.

Using the old system has clearly failed. Using hereditary land ownership will significantly alter the social ethos of the People. Hopefully, what will be discovered is communal direct democracy on a small scale. The people who control who works what land are chosen from among the people who work the land. Moderately less educated farmers are less capable of creating clever situations like what's happened now, but they do know how to farm, the one thing they'd be elected for.

-3 is still functional. It's dipping into -4 that causes collapse.
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yeah but -3 puts us with random event stability variance range. In other words trusting our People to the whims of the DiceGods
 
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be
 
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] The old ways have worked well enough for us in the past
[X] Leave them be
 
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