VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Well yeah, but thats for stuff with fur, like feline, and skinny apes don't qualify in that. I will miss those belly rubs.
Maybe i will be cute and charm that red lady into feeding me.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Well yeah, but thats for stuff with fur, like feline, and skinny apes don't qualify in that. I will miss those belly rubs.
Maybe i will be cute and charm that red lady into feeding me.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
You don't need fur if you have a nice, deep, insulatory cave.
Wrong way round.
If we build them first, we're going to need to dismantle them to organize them. That's why so many people are pushing double organization for secondary. City planning is MUCH easier if there isn't already a city.
Mind you, everything indicates we're more than stable for food at present.
We went from:
1) Irrigated Farming - Farmer Pop = Lots of food
2) Irrigated Forestry Farming - Farmer Pop - Warrior Pop - Specialists pop(for maintaining forests and ditches) = Still lots of food
3) Irrigated Forestry Farming + Herds - Farmer Pop - Warrior Pop - Specialists pop - Traders pop = Still shitloads of food
4) Irrigated Forestry Farming + Herds + Fish - Farmer Pop - Warrior Pop - Specialists pop - Traders pop - Fishers pop = Still shitloads of food
We increased our population by a factor of two, but added enough food production after combining with the Fishers that we can afford to feed dedicated masons now.
All told, our food production is more than enough, but we need to rebuild the reserves.
Waste disposal is probably one of the things that'd need to be reorganized. We're already turning our shit into fertilizer, but we need a better way to do it with the population significantly larger.
According to AN the biggest boost to coming out of the disease unharmed was our high Centralization. Ordering a qurantine would have been an unacceptable order at lower levels(in a smaller village, people routinely break quarantine orders because they feel sorry for the sick, or because they think they're the exception), but our Super Big Man has enough authority now to make it stick.
Can't do that. We don't have our people to interpret the will of the spirits. Everyone is going off their personal superstitions instead(which means some people will swear up and down that the dams offend the Fish Spirit who'd dry up the rivers for blocking his path while others will say gathering water pleases the River Mother).
I'm citing from historical accounts, of landslides, including the total collapse of hills, caused by primitive mud and clay dams. Our people have knowledge of running water, as seen by how their canalwork have gone, and of erosion, but some things you can only appreciate when you realize that your small dam is holding something like 300 tons of water with soil that's getting more and more moist as pressurized water penetrates the deeper soil. And that as the area of the dam grows the mass of water increases geometrically.
See, clay normally isn't very permeable to standing water. It's top layer turns to mud, but the deeper layers are basically dry and insulated. But when you apply weight, it will slowly seep through and soften the clay...until the whole hillside gives way.
Which is to say the dam itself would probably hold, if built well of stone core and brick walls. But the hill it's built on probably won't.
Both wind and water mills require gears to translate the energy into the usable form.
We don't really have the tools for that yet, but we should be able to figure out the hand mill and the ox mill pretty quickly, though the cut stone to make it would be a pretty big expense.
The lowlanders never attacked us personally. The reason we hate them is because they destroy the land and uphold violence as a virtue.
Now consider this: The Spirit Talkers removed the lowlanders by destroying the land, at least, if they did what they claim.
Is that something to be thankful for?
They had been getting donations from all their close neighbors for generations. Enough to build a warrior caste that could wreck the full warrior culture lowlanders.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Top of the page, thread tools, 'who replied?'
Shows who posted, how many posts they have, and clicking on the number will take you to a list of everything they wrote in this thread.
Want to find a AN quote that's not part of the story? That's the best way to do it.
Shows who posted, how many posts they have, and clicking on the number will take you to a list of everything they wrote in this thread.
Want to find a AN quote that's not part of the story? That's the best way to do it.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Don't need to breath too, that fire dangerous yo. Carbon monoxide our newest cause of death, after eaten by animal.
[X] Restrict such activities
[X] Yes
[X] [Main] Dedicate Place to Spirits
[X] [Secondary] Step-Farms
[X] [Secondary] Improve Trail
[X] Yes
[X] [Main] Dedicate Place to Spirits
[X] [Secondary] Step-Farms
[X] [Secondary] Improve Trail
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
[X] Veekie
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I can sense the huge salt movement for the alternate RL players.
"Wtf?! Drought, floods, and zelots?
The hell dice?"Insert Spanish Inquisition here.
A perfect example of "out of context problem"
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I was assuming that if you have a water mill attached to a millstone you can just have the mill directly turn the stone. But honestly, I have no idea what the orientation of a millstone is. Is it parallel or perpendicular to the ground?
I didn't know that about clay, but I should have assumed it. I was assuming more or less that we'd be building it in something of a canyon. But then again, that's with the benefit of being able to realize just how much weight is involved. Tho it would also make sense just in terms of saving stone.
I was thinking it would be like when a popular person says something and everyone more or less takes it for granted. Like when you're in a group planning a project and the guy all of you have selected as team leader cus none of you wants to do it says that the best way to do something is x. You don't know, care, or feel enough to have a strong opinion to the contrary, cus you're confused and just set on resolving the issue.
We're going to have a burgeoning pop of nonproductives soon, tho.
True enough. It's a good reason for reorganizing.
Step Farms involve a completely different, aka more segmented, setup than we currently have, and it would make sense for the farms to be prioritized first. Some of the farms will have to be undone to have a truly optimal setup, but it just makes sense to not organize and realize we actually chose a non-optimal place to build all those buildings. I.e., undoing a bit of step farming is less work than redoing all the buildings.
We got into it somehow, so there's probably an air flow. Also why would we use a fire when we're asleep?
Edit: when I first saw AN's # of point I was like "wow that's a lot." But V has even more. So many. So much.
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I don't think competition is a consideration. We have plenty of food and don't really WANT people to give us their food. It's against our culture.
We're also pretty far from them, so until we expand or they expand, we aren't a factor.
Do you even read the quoted text?
It would be VERY hard to justify destroying the land to kill the lowlanders, because we hate the lowlanders for tending their lands poorly to begin with.
See the previous update. Our people reacted with horror and fear to the idea of the Spirit Talkers sending drought.
We hate the lowlanders for treating their land poorly.
The Spirit Talkers hate the lowlanders for human sacrifice.
It's out of fear.
The people believe there is a very real risk of the Spirit Talkers firing their next spirit nuke and killing everyone for real this time. That's why the Festival isn't really going to pacify them, they just saw Hiroshima go up in a giant mushroom, and now want their leaders to go tell the dread mushroom makers that we want to be friends with them so they don't make our cities disappear.
We survived the collateral damage of the last one barely because of our insanely strong economy. Consider how many of the tribes now offering tribute to the Spirit Talkers are at starvation levels after the recent weather disruptions.
Is this out of love and joy?
Or terror?
zamin
The Watcher in the Dark
Dunno about cool, but we do have the biggest flower in the world.
Pity it stinks, though. The flower smells of rotten flesh, which is rather... pungent.
When you think about it, it's actually pretty impressive. We've had to work and slave for generations to build up our farms and infrastructure, while these guys just act wise and talk about spirits and bam! Everyone's lining up to give them food.
I can't decide if I'm annoyed or jealous that we didn't think of that first.
In any case, I'm still unsure if there are actually real spirits or if the spirit talkers are simply looking at natural phenomena and going "Hey, these clouds and rain and stuff must be because the spirits are angry!", which is why I do want to invest in religion sooner rather then later.
Best case scenario, we do get actual spirits to talk to. Worst case scenario, we at least have a way to unite our people, enhance our culture, and avoid getting assimilated by the Spirit Talkers.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
All of these actually, the strange taste of wisdom understand all those actions.
For the sprita talkers? Taste the rainbow hoe. This our hood now.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
I'm not gonna say anything.
I'm just going to stew in my
UNYIELDING RAGE!!!!!!
FUCKING CROW BASTARD!
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
We're a factor because our religion is competing w/ theirs, and memes spread rly fast. And just, different religions in general are angry-making, usually. Plus, by building our own thing we're making it so that we're not giving them food and will likely never be doing it. I'd be pissed kinda.
*shrug* I don't really know the background for this whole response chain. I feel that destroying the lowlanders is arguably for the long term betterment of the land, though. Or it's so bad that we cannot comprehend it and loathe the spirit talkers and will never gift them, ever. Either one.
So basically we hate them both cus the spirit talkers fucked over the land and us.
The giant spirit nuke that took like 5-10 years to work, yeah. If we raid them and sacrifice their blood to the spirits we might stop it if they do it again. And honestly, we stood against what they sent at others right over our heads. We'd probably believe that we can stand against the next thing, even if we don't want to. And if they did it again it would hurt them. Assuming we don't assume they can do other things, of course.
zamin
The Watcher in the Dark
Relax, man. The guy's dead. Heck, he's been dead for years now.
This is just something that happens when you don't have any way to record history other then human memory. People tend to forget details, mix things up or exaggerate/downplay things to save face or make a good story.
And really, having Crow turn into our people's image of a trickster spirit is amusingly ironic.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Nah man, that monk group just showed their hand and blow up the dealer. We can now step in sell us as the house he is staying under.
Two makes a pair and we can play this world game.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Last post of the night.
After another look on the status page, we came very far from where we were. Thank you all for joining this and thank @Academia Nut for the wonderful quest.
Good night.
After another look on the status page, we came very far from where we were. Thank you all for joining this and thank @Academia Nut for the wonderful quest.
Good night.
Millstones are usually set up parallel to the ground. It being rather difficult to suspend a large slab of stone vertically for a long time.
Waterwheels are perpendicular. So at the minimum, you need some way to convey force through right angles(which takes gears)
But with masonry we can make animal mills(which is basically, two discs of stone slotted into each other parallel to the ground, then you stick a handle on and tie it to an animal who walks in circles), which means we can start converting grain to flour, which gets us more food per grain, and more ability to store it if we can keep it dry.
Most early dams are built in hilly areas, because the water is easier to transport when it's in a higher place when you don't have pumps. If you build a dam in the valley, our farmers are going to need to haul buckets of water uphill to their farms. If you build one in the hills, you just need to open the sluice and run the water downhill to irrigate everything. All you need to do then is to make sure the ditches are not clogged.
That'd be the thing. People are not in control, so they will credit both success and failure freely.
So it depends on what happens when building the dam:
-If during the construction process, someone gets clumsy and either gets crushed or drowned, they'd call the project cursed and it takes extra effort to get them back on.
-If building it is followed by good weather for a generation, then they'd believe it pleases the spirits.
Lots of things can happen. That's the meta-reason for rituals and mysticism, so that when bad things happen to good people, you can explain why(even if it's bullshit) and conduct rituals to drive away the bad luck(even if there's no bad luck).
It helps you control the fallout of random events, but a quirk of human psychology is that people remember bad things and scary things much better than good(which is why IRL there's so many haunted places), so without some means of dealing with it...well new things are always scary.
It's something that came from prosperity.
Think of it another way: Full time non-productive populations only arise when society as a whole has enough excess that productive people can pay nonproductive people enough that they can make a living.
This is a bigger problem later on...but:
They aren't full time nonproductive people.
They're our farmers, artisans and warriors who thought they should get more luxury goods because they're good at gambling or sex in between the farmwork.
I'm not sure I can understand your reasoning here:
-Organize -> Farms = You plan out your land use, then you expand your Farms where they make the best use of the land, factoring in where the irrigation routes are, so that you can fully utilize the water going downhill.
-Farms -> Organize = You build your farms where they're most convenient now. Then you organize, tearing down the farms that are in the wrong places and put new farms in places that have unused water.
Why would that be a good idea at all unless critically in need of them?
"[] Raid the flood""Wtf?! Drought, floods, and zelots?
The secondaries are "integrate culture" with a side of expand. A new settlement should be a place where the three tribes mix at least a bit so it is a way to get the differing cultures closer. Common holidays and celebrations are a staple of cultural unity, so it is there for that. Organization to enhance the new settlement, and to prepare for larger scale projects in the future.
- Location
- Hell
And going for Step Farms would help ensure that while also reducing the effects of drought and flooding.
Did you even think of what you write?
Spirits have nothing to do with the Gardeners. How they manage what they do is irrelevant to the trait.
And yet your saying to build monuments instead of actually doing sonething to fix that like the Step Farms.
The gift is a one time only that allows us to open Dialogue with the Spirit Talkers, people we haven't actively communicated with at all. They are just as likely to be afraid of us.
We've build incredibly advanced infrastructures, grown in startling large numbers, survived a severe drought on our own( even managing to give), and managed to absorb two other large groups, all without showing signs of stopping or falling apart.
They hit the land with the strongest curse they had and we survived and thrived. They have to be thinking we're beloved of the gods or that maybe something else is in play.
Walkng in with gifts will help defuse that and humanise both sides.
Priority=/=Order
We would be doing both side by side, tearing down and building all whule keeping an eye where to build Steps.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Do you mean it would get us more food per grain because it's more easily digestible?
True, but I was thinking that the dam was less to capture the water that directly waters our farms - I just assume we're at the tops of hills and thus don't have much of a river to care about - and instead aimed at capturing the river flowing from the lowlands, and reducing the impact of the flood elsewhere/on other lands. So yeah, it would suck to have it that low but that'd more or less just be what would happen. And having it would provide water when we need it, at the cost of labor.
V. true. I'm aware of the bias in memory and confirmation bias in general. The way you phrased your concerns made the initial decision to build/not build the dam more of an issue. It's true that the rest of the construction is troublesome, but to be honest even in organized religions people don't really believe the priests who tell them to shut up and get back to work. They believe themselves.
Someone else discussed how the nonproductive work that is being done is a larger variety than gambling or sex, it's just that those are the most notable/popular. Assuming the festival or etc. occurs at some point, we'll have an increase in storytellers and adornment crafters who don't put food in people's bellies or a wall/roof on their house. It's also debatable whether they can still be considered our farmers, artisans, etc. If I recall right, it sounded rather more like they were turning to that as a main activity for receiving income. And if not, that might be a concern.
The problem is that we are planning out our land use for "Farms" not for Step Farms, which presumably are an as-yet-unsettled idea, and thus unlikely to be predicted. Step Farms can be assumed to be different from normal farms, for all that both utilize water going downhill (though the description for Step Farms arguably implies that we do not already utilize the runoff, as opposed to the irrigation ditches, which will probably be repositioned both when we organize and when we make the step farms, anyways).
Also, as an addendum, I feel that having an excessively powerful economy will boost our population growth and feel that that's a good thing. Though organizing is good, too. Assuming that it's future proofed.
Edit: Btw I'm asleep.
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Not really something in their mind I feel. They've never recieved food from us after all, so why would they expect that to change?
On the other hand I agree on the other element. What our own homegrown shamans come up with will be different from what theirs do, which will be based on our social and political structure.
Due to our high Hierarchy and Centralization, I suspect our spiritual beliefs will reflect that. Super Big Man and Super Big Spirit. Spirits working together to achieve what they cannot do alone.
Due to our beliefs in the care of the land, the spirits will be embedded in natural forces, but at the same time we know and understand some of how the natural forces interact. We can expect the spiritual beliefs to reflect this interconnected and interdependent nature(which is good, it'd preserve our gardening techniques better in lore).
Due to our beliefs in sharing, especially the climatic moment where charity even in a time of starvation 'brought' rain, that probably would be enshrined as a virtue. Maybe it's how we earn spiritual favor? Do good things for people and all.
This last part is probably going to conflict the most with the Spirit Talkers, since they certainly see no problems with taking food from starving people hoping for a hail mary.
Basically the Spirit Talkers destroyed the land all the way to get rid of the lowlanders.
On the other hand, if they can destroy the land you don't want to cross them.
The jury is out on whether this is the spirits punishing the lowlanders for their sins against the land or whether this is the Spirit Talkers having a really big bomb.
This part is actually not possible. AN already confirmed they are to far away to bring an effective raiding force to bear...and people don't want to risk raiding people who have nukes.
- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
I don't know, seems like a fairly reasonable synergistic effect. We start building a spiritual monument, we send a very hefty gift to the Spirit Talkers (seriously, we're so bloody rich even a moderate gift would come off as impressive), their impressed, we mention that we're setting up our own monuments, they reciprocate by giving us some pointers on how to not accidentally offend anyone or anything, maybe send their own spirit men if they're really impressed.
Synergy! It's like a bonus action, except we can't co-ordinate well enough to pull it off regularly! Plus, they sometimes synergize with unforeseen circumstances as well.