- Location
- Illinois
We're definitely one of the more industrial nations, but history has shown how fast that can change. We'll definitely have to keep an eye out to make sure we can take advantage of any new tech.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
HanEmpire
Delicious
The Ymaryn are ahead in tech.
We have precision manufacturing now. With Admin + Education Reforms we might be able to standardize our units and kick off industrialization.
- Location
- Hell
Not necessarily all tech is what they mean.
Even as is, what we have is faster construction of large quantity of goods. Not necessarily better quality and that is not necessarily forever either.
We have a 3d printer but we still need to create designs(or steal them). Let alone the fact that there are various more fields of study that we may not have touched either.
- Location
- Uruguay
I want to ask something that caught my attention, you can't make 'black earth' and saltpeter at the same time? Why?
Is there chemistry or some physical aspect of the process that prevents the formation/collection of saltpeter? Because if I remember correctly, in real life saltpeter could be found on waste deposits in farms, which sounds very similar to the holes lined with bricks that we used to make black earth.
And if so, shouldn't separating urine from the other waste do the trick (Not that our civilization would know, but I want to know), or would that damage the quality of the black earth in some significant way?
Also, is the producton of 'black earth' compatible with drainage systems? (Was that what prevented the formation of saltpeter?)
Because last time I read about it we collected waste in clay pots, and never read about going beyond that (there is a chance that I skipped it).
Is there chemistry or some physical aspect of the process that prevents the formation/collection of saltpeter? Because if I remember correctly, in real life saltpeter could be found on waste deposits in farms, which sounds very similar to the holes lined with bricks that we used to make black earth.
And if so, shouldn't separating urine from the other waste do the trick (Not that our civilization would know, but I want to know), or would that damage the quality of the black earth in some significant way?
Also, is the producton of 'black earth' compatible with drainage systems? (Was that what prevented the formation of saltpeter?)
Because last time I read about it we collected waste in clay pots, and never read about going beyond that (there is a chance that I skipped it).
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- Location
- Illinois
We actually can make both, it's just that we used a lot of what would normally be used to make saltpeter to make black soil. We make both now, it's just that we had to reallocate some of the waste products into different pits that could be harvested for saltpeter, since we originally just focused on making black soil (with part of the process being designed to make sure it doesn't explode.)
Should be noted that we are explicitly the biggest users of gunpowder right now, passed up maybe by japan.
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- Location
- Uruguay
Right, but I don't mean dedicating half of the pits to saltpeter and another to fertilizer.
I mean doing both at the same time as in making both from the same pit.
After all, what becomes of the waste used to produce saltpeter? Because the process was first considered 'improper waste disposal'. Can't we later turn that waste into 'black earth'?
I am asking mostly out of curiosity about the technical parts of the process rather than how it affects the quest.
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It is upsetting that the Ymaryn totally missed the potential of gunpowder. At least you'd think an alchemist would figure out he could use it to win the title of Fastest to Clear Away Horseshit on a technicality.
HanEmpire
Delicious
We do? Where was this mentioned?
- Location
- Illinois
Combined with being the people who ship guns almost everywhere, plus the fact that RL Japan had surpassed Europe in gun use at this time, and we're the biggest gun producers in the world.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The fertilizing agents are the nitrates in the saltpeter, so making one cuts into the production of the other.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Have we discovered how to produce biogas from wastes? Would black soil / saltpeter heavily discourage that innovation?
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
Honestly, mass use of Black Soil is probably more environmentally friendly and economically beneficial than producing Biogas I think so it's not THAT big a loss if it does...
That said, by the time biogas becomes something used on a large scale, even if the waste-to-biogas avenue is missed, it should be picked up once someone figures out that 'Oh, we can make this gas this way, and it's very similar to what happens in waste disposal... Maybe we should check if that does in fact produce it?'
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- Location
- Illinois
Depends on how much our people value safety. Old Ymaryn Empire probably would have seen the biogas and worked to make sure it wasn't a threat, but with our universities, we might actually study it now.
- Location
- Uruguay
Ok, so even if we separate urine to produce saltpeter, it would considerably affect the fertilizer? Thanks, that makes things clearer.
Is its production compatible with drainage, or can waste only be stored in pits for aging manually?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you separate out urine it will still work, but the black soil would probably deplete more quickly but still mostly work. This was actually a very big issue in WW1 as the base materials for fertilizers and explosives are the same, and nations needed both food and guns to fight. This lead to the development of the Haber-Bosch process of fixing atmospheric nitrogen into ammonia. This is also why farmers have licensing issues, because the fertilizer they use can be turned into potent explosives (See Oklahoma city).
- Location
- Uruguay
Ok, thank you very much. That pretty much explains all my doubts... Though why was ammonia needed?
And sewers could help 'automatize' the collection of waste or was it better done manually?
Sorry if I am becoming annoying with my questions, but I want to know if something like the Roman sewers would interfere or help with the production of both fertilizer and explosives.
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
Ammonia was needed because explosives and fertilizers both involve creating Nitrogen Compounds. Different ones in most cases, but the ammonia is used as a feed-stock for both of them (Ammonia can be used as-is for either purpose but at reduced effect I believe)...
Re: Biogas versus Black Soil
There is no significant problem here. The bacteria producing biogas need the carbon in the organic waste used in making black soil. The nitrogen is pretty much unaffected and it even helps in increasing the concentration.
The Saltpeter is an issue, but technically, you can have a first step where you ferment it to get biogas, then extract the saltpeter and the remainder still has phophorus and nitrogen in lower amounts. It's not as good and useless for terraforming, but it serves adequately as fertilizer.
If you still need extra organic mass or nitrogen, you just add some raw waste to the mix. Given that we are capitalist now and there is a demand, people will find a way to make maximum profit from it.
Btw, what does our population size look like compared to the Syffrinites? Did we regain our status as Caucasus China?
There is no significant problem here. The bacteria producing biogas need the carbon in the organic waste used in making black soil. The nitrogen is pretty much unaffected and it even helps in increasing the concentration.
The Saltpeter is an issue, but technically, you can have a first step where you ferment it to get biogas, then extract the saltpeter and the remainder still has phophorus and nitrogen in lower amounts. It's not as good and useless for terraforming, but it serves adequately as fertilizer.
If you still need extra organic mass or nitrogen, you just add some raw waste to the mix. Given that we are capitalist now and there is a demand, people will find a way to make maximum profit from it.
Btw, what does our population size look like compared to the Syffrinites? Did we regain our status as Caucasus China?
- Location
- a
What are you even saying-_-
Do you even pay attention to an's post?
Our agenda is to unite the territories that were part of old ymar, which means the territories of Gylruv, which we plan to culturally unite with us and black sheep territory.
Why would we even want a non hostile relationship?
Well it's possible we use diplomacy to regain them, but it's also unlikely
And how does Khemetri uniting the small states has to with ymar??
Diplomatic annexation is more likely to stick in this era. Literacy and writing is too prevalent for people to forget in a few generations anymore.
So we want them to want to join in, using our own history of voluntary vassalization with some spin doctoring
On the plus side, we have a strong incentive to figure the process out! Most people aren't crazy enough to fertilize their goddamned forests except the Ymar descendants...
HanEmpire
Delicious
We still tend to the Sacred Forest so that's a given.
@Academia Nut the old Shaman/Priest class is still around, just made completely subordinate to the secular authorities right?
@Academia Nut the old Shaman/Priest class is still around, just made completely subordinate to the secular authorities right?
- Location
- Illinois
He mentioned that it was heavily degraded, and the last update mentioned that the records we have left were too out of date to help us with the changing climate.
- Location
- Huezil
I'm imagining that with the insane sewer systems we have, the more people, more food, more shit, more black soil and gunpowder, the math seems a little insane, because we built a infrastructure thoroughly focused on reclaiming our absurd quantity of organic waste and them putting it to use.
Well. What happened to the doomsayers anyways?.
HanEmpire
Delicious
That's a damn shame. The out-of-date thing is climate change, but the fact that forest-tending isn't being done properly is unacceptable.
How do we fix that? Religion reform?