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Paths of Civilization

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Korporati said:
That would indeed solve our issues, yes.
In fact, it would do much more than that.
The industrial revolution can be considered as the reason for the European dominance in the world.

And wooo, we are going for naval ships when we don't even have the wood :)
How is that even possible?
Naval reforms when we don't even have the means is surely the way forward
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We buy wood from other people and we're really good at facilitating trading.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
For the first time the Horde finds itself outnumbered.
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...The Mongol armies were frequently outnumbered. Leaving aside that the pastoralist lifestyle is not suited to supporting high populations, marching gigantic hordes of horsemen across half of Asia would have been terribly impractical in this age because the logistics would have been murder. Besides, some of their opponents were amongst the most powerful and populous empires in the world, who could afford to maintain vast armies of standing soldiers.

[X] [Focus] East, with the mountain pastoralists (1x)
[X] [Allies] People from the Spice Lands and Tea Lands (0.8x)

We need to get in on the trade game and undercut them foreigners.
 
Arcus said:
...The Mongol armies were frequently outnumbered. Leaving aside that the pastoralist lifestyle is not suited to supporting high populations, marching gigantic hordes of horsemen across half of Asia would have been terribly impractical in this age because the logistics would have been murder. Besides, some of their opponents were amongst the most powerful and populous empires in the world, who could afford to maintain vast armies of standing soldiers.

[X] [Focus] East, with the mountain pastoralists (1x)
[X] [Allies] People from the Spice Lands and Tea Lands (0.8x)

We need to get in on the trade game and undercut them foreigners.
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You're behind by an update.
 
Arcus said:
...The Mongol armies were frequently outnumbered. Leaving aside that the pastoralist lifestyle is not suited to supporting high populations, marching gigantic hordes of horsemen across half of Asia would have been terribly impractical in this age because the logistics would have been murder. Besides, some of their opponents were amongst the most powerful and populous empires in the world, who could afford to maintain vast armies of standing soldiers.

[X] [Focus] East, with the mountain pastoralists (1x)
[X] [Allies] People from the Spice Lands and Tea Lands (0.8x)

We need to get in on the trade game and undercut them foreigners.
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It's possible that we were the first major settled people that Great Khan had actually taken a swing at, and thus the first time his horde was outnumbered.

Also, you are a little late.
 
Kiba said:
We buy wood from other people and we're really good at facilitating trading.
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Sure, because a naval power that fuels their entire navy to build, maintain and repair their large fleets could work by imports :V

I don't know about you but i rather not be totally dependent on a foreign nation who could starve our navy by cutting the imports
 
Korporati said:
Sure, because a naval power that fuels their entire navy to build, maintain and repair their large fleets could work by imports :V

I don't know about you but i rather not be totally dependent on a foreign nation who could starve our navy by cutting the imports
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I supposed we might have to get Serious About Trees, which means international diplomacy and espionage to steal tree saplings.
 
I'm not sold on the feasibility of the Naval Reform tbh. The Ymaryn have always been a Land-based power, and to contest the Vortuguese we'd need to overhaul the whole ship-building industry, build shipyards on the ass-end of the Empire, and transport imported wood from Not!Russia to the Not!Persian Gulf. There's no way in hell we can properly compete with Not!Europeans with that level of handicap.

Kiba said:
I supposed we might have to get Serious About Trees, which means international diplomacy and espionage to steal tree saplings.
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Those trees probably wouldn't grow well in the Ymaryn heat.
 
Kiba said:
I supposed we might have to get Serious About Trees, which means international diplomacy and espionage to steal tree saplings.
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Not to mention that even if we manage to steal some from them, we need to plant them SUFFICIENTLY to make our navies self sufficient which take generations.

By the time we got the woods, we are already totally outmatched in industry, agriculture, and probably navy too :V
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Arcus said:
[X] [Reform] Administrative reform
[X] [Fuel] Development of new industries

Time for early proto-industrial revolution
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I need to point out while administrative reform is highly useful, the administrative reforms that led to industrial Europe goverments was a product of industrial revolution, not the cause for it.
Land reform works better to cause industrial revolution.
 
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Korporati said:
Not to mention that even if we manage to steal some from them, we need to plant them SUFFICIENTLY to make our navies self sufficient which take generations.

By the time we got the woods, we are already totally outmatched in industry, agriculture, and probably navy too :V
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Yeah, that is why I changed my mind. Hopefully it's the right choice.
 
Guys, I just had a thought.
What if, Hear me out....
We become the Human!Eldar

We Literally were the major power for millennia.
Like the Eldar.
We collapsed, but didn't really die as a civilization.
Like the Eldar.
We liked nature and tree-hugging.
Like the Hippy!Eldar.
We have the Not!Black-Library
Like the Scum!Eldar.
We Worshipp Cegorach Crow.
Like the Eldar.
We also have the Cannal Not!Webway.
And! Best of all! we had and still have a massive Better-Than-Thou stick up our ass!
Like the Eldar!
Ymaryn = Human!Eldar is confirmed!
 
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I do not believe in the proto-industrial dream. Fite me.

[X] [Reform] Naval reform
[X] [Fuel] Deepening trade ties with growing powers
 
The industrial revolution began in Britain for reasons which are still poorly understood, but which certainly had as much to do with geography and social organization as with openness to technological development.

Britain of course was politically stable in a way very few governments in the 18th century ever were, and where mercantile interests firmly enjoyed a dominant voice in administration. That allowed it to develop a system for taking out loans at highly favorable rates, eventually allowing British entrepreneurs to leverage far more investment capital than they could otherwise have had access to. The land clearances of the early 18th century fed into an already booming population that created a ready pool of unskilled labor- which mind is contrary to the idea that mechanization was just a reaction to a lack of available labor. But it did mean that once the automated loom was invented the early industrialists could use desperate unskilled labor to break the traditional artisan class and undercut foreign suppliers on price. Britain also had massive coal deposits that could fuel the new steam-driven industries and a system of canals and inland waterways that made delivering the coal to industrial sites relatively cheap.

The Ymaryn are probably behind the Dutch in terms of financial sophistication at an equivalent period, since the Guilds and hereditary patrician merchant-families crowd out demand for the Joint Stock Company. I'm not sure they have major artisan production amenable to being replaced by steam-driven mass production, like the British wool trade becoming the textile industry. For that matter the availability of coal to fuel a steam engine, if one is demonstrated, and if the metallurgy is good enough for it, would have to be determined, and the use of the steam engine to, for example, help pump out water from mines relies on mines existing in conditions that require that.
 
HanEmpire said:
I'm not sold on the feasibility of the Naval Reform tbh. The Ymaryn have always been a Land-based power, and to contest the Vortuguese we'd need to overhaul the whole ship-building industry, build shipyards on the ass-end of the Empire, and transport imported wood from Not!Russia to the Not!Persian Gulf. There's no way in hell we can properly compete with Not!Europeans with that level of handicap.


Those trees probably wouldn't grow well in the Ymaryn heat.
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We're not suited for it, yeah. What we are suited for is the expansion of industry to further cement our economic advantage, and further improvements of our administrative systems. Western style bureaucracy is a pretty big advantage, and if we develop new trade goods that'll devalue the old ones that the Vortuga are trying to get a stranglehold on.
 
Arcus said:
...The Mongol armies were frequently outnumbered. Leaving aside that the pastoralist lifestyle is not suited to supporting high populations, marching gigantic hordes of horsemen across half of Asia would have been terribly impractical in this age because the logistics would have been murder. Besides, some of their opponents were amongst the most powerful and populous empires in the world, who could afford to maintain vast armies of standing soldiers.
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Maybe so. I haven't really had a chance to read anything detailed about the Mongols. All the history I learned in school pretty much skipped from the horrifying invasion of the Mongols to the glorious victory over the Golden Horde. The in-between period is just one of those things We Don't Talk About.

I do know that barely succeeding and then totally running out of steam despite their overwhelming numerical advantage is the thing they're best known for.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Maybe so. I haven't really had a chance to read anything detailed about the Mongols. All the history I learned in school pretty much skipped from the horrifying invasion of the Mongols to the glorious victory over the Golden Horde. The in-between period is just one of those things We Don't Talk About.

I do know that barely succeeding and then totally running out of steam despite their overwhelming numerical advantage is the thing they're best known for.
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I'm pretty sure they do not outnumber the chinese :V
Cavalier said:
The industrial revolution began in Britain for reasons which are still poorly understood, but which certainly had as much to do with geography and social organization as with openness to technological development.

Britain of course was politically stable in a way very few governments in the 18th century ever were, and where mercantile interests firmly enjoyed a dominant voice in administration. That allowed it to develop a system for taking out loans at highly favorable rates, eventually allowing British entrepreneurs to leverage far more investment capital than they could otherwise have had access to. The land clearances of the early 18th century fed into an already booming population that created a ready pool of unskilled labor- which mind is contrary to the idea that mechanization was just a reaction to a lack of available labor. But it did mean that once the automated loom was invented the early industrialists could use desperate unskilled labor to break the traditional artisan class and undercut foreign suppliers on price. Britain also had massive coal deposits that could fuel the new steam-driven industries and a system of canals and inland waterways that made delivering the coal to industrial sites relatively cheap.

The Ymaryn are probably behind the Dutch in terms of financial sophistication at an equivalent period, since the Guilds and hereditary patrician merchant-families crowd out demand for the Joint Stock Company. I'm not sure they have major artisan production amenable to being replaced by steam-driven mass production, like the British wool trade becoming the textile industry. For that matter the availability of coal to fuel a steam engine, if one is demonstrated, and if the metallurgy is good enough for it, would have to be determined, and the use of the steam engine to, for example, help pump out water from mines relies on mines existing in conditions that require that.
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Hmm, that brings up an interesting point.
Do current ymaryn have the resources such as coal in their territory?
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
I do know that barely succeeding and then totally running out of steam despite their overwhelming numerical advantage is the thing they're best known for.
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...i thought the thing they were best known for was winning with immensely coordinated maneuvers despite rarely outnumbering their opponents

you don't make the largest contiguous empire in human history through repeated pyrrhic victories
 
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SeptimusMagisto said:
I do know that barely succeeding and then totally running out of steam despite their overwhelming numerical advantage is the thing they're best known for.
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Yeah, that's a load of bunk. A lot of the time their armies were relatively small. Thing is, every soldier had multiple horses, allowing them an unprecedented degree of mobility for the time. If they gave off the appearance of vast numbers, it was probably because their speed of march let them keep appearing at unexpected times and places. They also had some very good generals and very sophisticated battlefield communications.
 
NonSequtur said:
...i thought the thing they were best known for was winning with immensely coordinated maneuvers despite rarely outnumbering their opponents
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Plus the well oiled merchant information network that reports army movement, pressures surrender, selling enemy supply to enemy at exorbitant price, and out right gate opening. Who could have guessed merchants would sellout your side to generous enemy. :V
 
NonSequtur said:
...i thought the thing they were best known for was winning with immensely coordinated maneuvers despite rarely outnumbering their opponents
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Not really. I mean, they mostly just move as a single, undifferentiated horde destroying everything in their way? Sort of like locusts?

(I'm mostly kidding, but that's largely how they come off if you grow up in Ukraine).

Arcus said:
Thing is, every soldier had multiple horses, allowing them an unprecedented degree of mobility for the time.
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Sure. Everyone knows that they brought multiple horses with them as a weird intimidation tactic. It was one of their distinctive traits, like their plinky ineffective bows and weird rope tricks.
 
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