Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
agumentic said:
Who is these mysterious central authority? They sure sound like patricians.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Presumably your monarch.
Academia Nut said:
They're constantly offing one another, it's just not something that tends to concern the king so long as taxes get paid.



That's exactly what you have now. The hereditary bureaucrats (because that is the only way to actually train bureaucrats right now) are the only ones who know how to make the government work, so they are subservient to the government while also being the government. That this is hugely corrupt is inherent in the system, yes, but you will have to spend generations investing in education before this can possibly be not the case.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then spending generations on the education necessary seems like the best solution here.
 
Last edited:
Finari'i said:
Presumably your monarch.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Who is a patrician, elected by patricians, and supported by patricians on every level. About the only important part of governance that isn't held by the patricians is the priesthood, who coincidentally tend to have their most 'political' portions come from the patricians, simply because they tend to have backgrounds useful for that from before they became priests.
 
Just to, like, curb expectations on the whole education thing. I know a lot of people are aware of how bad it will be, but...

I suspect we'd need something like an academy for every two provinces, minimum, to begin to make a dent in the patrician's monopoly on education. Probably closer to an academy every province, and then we could start seeing a few non patrician family members become patricians. It would depend on how many people these academies service, and the actual number of patrician families (actually, roughly speaking, how many patrician families are there @Academia Nut ?), but I think that saying 18+ Academies is being incredibly optimistic personally.
 
bluefur87 said:
Just to, like, curb expectations on the whole education thing. I know a lot of people are aware of how bad it will be, but...

I suspect we'd need something like an academy for every two provinces, minimum, to begin to make a dent in the patrician's monopoly on education. Probably closer to an academy every province, and then we could start seeing a few non patrician family members become patricians. It would depend on how many people these academies service, and the actual number of patrician families (actually, roughly speaking, how many patrician families are there @Academia Nut ?), but I think that saying 18+ Academies is being incredibly optimistic personally.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
With the Tech problems growing, we'll probably see some technical schools sooner than later. But yeah, this is not a quick solution.
 
bluefur87 said:
Just to, like, curb expectations on the whole education thing. I know a lot of people are aware of how bad it will be, but...

I suspect we'd need something like an academy for every two provinces, minimum, to begin to make a dent in the patrician's monopoly on education. Probably closer to an academy every province, and then we could start seeing a few non patrician family members become patricians. It would depend on how many people these academies service, and the actual number of patrician families (actually, roughly speaking, how many patrician families are there @Academia Nut ?), but I think that saying 18+ Academies is being incredibly optimistic personally.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Let's put it this way: you need not just academies but universities before you can hope to begin to address the issue.
 
HanEmpire said:
@Academia Nut could we support the Merchants and use them as a counterbalance to the Patrician nepotism? Or are they part of the problem, marrying into the Patrician Families for power and protection?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Traders are even WORSE than the patricians, like... the patricians do wage slavery... but the traders want chattel slavery, so nah, they be the worst option to choose among them all.
 
Last edited:
HanEmpire said:
@Academia Nut could we support the Merchants and use them as a counterbalance to the Patrician nepotism? Or are they part of the problem, marrying into the Patrician Families for power and protection?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The oldest merchant families are already tied to the Patricians. The Guild masters also become tied to Patricians (its the only way to rise up from middle manager). At best what happens is a shift in focus in our patrician class from being skilled to doing their best to try and hoard wealth/increase production in spite of our laws.
 
HanEmpire said:
Scratch that nonsense then. Pell mell on building an education system it is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We are finally reaching the point of a de-facto Ymarin golden age, where we can invest on infrastructure and culture. We need Gymnasiums, Theaters, Academies.

Heh, i find it funny that we basically made the dream of @maximillian come true and will have to basically do what he said about cultural development to guarantee our place.
 
Honestly, why is everyone railing so hard against our divinely glorious patricians? They are the best for the job and we won't become an egalitarian democracy any time soon anyway. Best we can push for is expanding our charity religious value to a core value and make it so that it's not just about giving basic necessities to the poor but about trying to uplift all the unfortunate souls to a standard of living/education/happiness that would seem palatable. In other words, make our patricians care, if not about true egalitarianism, then at least about having their lessers be only moderately lesser.
One day then, once higher level education can actually be made a common thing, we will have a popular revolution or two and if the patricians are lucky and benevolent enough they may end up like modern British nobility instead of like French royalty.
 
Rafin said:
Honestly, why is everyone railing so hard against our divinely glorious patricians? They are the best for the job and we won't become an egalitarian democracy any time soon anyway. Best we can push for is expanding our charity religious value to a core value and make it so that it's not just about giving basic necessities to the poor but about trying to uplift all the unfortunate souls to a standard of living/education/happiness that would seem palatable. In other words, make our patricians care, if not about true egalitarianism, then at least about having their lessers be only moderately lesser.
One day then, once higher level education can actually be made a common thing, we will have a popular revolution or two and if the patricians are lucky and benevolent enough they may end up like modern British nobility instead of like French royalty.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Divinely Glorious Elites (Maxed Development)
A well lead life is one of excellence in all things at all levels, from the stitch of cloth to prowess on the battlefield to skill in oration. The best and finest is thus demanded of and by all to show their virtue and honour, in the knowledge that those that rise to the top will be supported by excellence below.
Pros: Increase Martial gain from raising elite units; bonus Culture, Tech and/or Mysticism for certain actions; effect of criticals and doubles greatly increased; ruling faction gains an additional faction power
Cons: Increased potential Martial loss in fighting, increased social stratification, increased costs, dominant faction can no longer be suppressed, -3 Culture/ turn (need more academies)

Bolded the actual source of vitriol. The King relationship with the patricians is basically one where the King has the whip. But the patricians finally catched the hand of the King and we can't whip them into shape anymore.
 
A lot of the recent suggestions of "just do (thing) and everything will be solved!" are not all that helpful, honestly.

Many of the questers here do know what issues there are with the Ymaryn, if not the extent of these issues, as well as generally knowing the solutions to these issues.

Have the majority of the population unable to get into most government positions? Expand education.
Have huge issues of cultural and religious drift? Get more roads/temples to ensure connectivity.

So on and so forth.
The issue is that we never have the time to do these things, because there's always something more immediate in the way that we have to do, like not dying from Nomads or not fracturing into Civil War or preventing our subordinates from breaking away or dealing with pirates and so on.

So, in an ideal world where we had no troubles on the horizon and we had an unlimited amount of resources and time to fix these problems, you can be assured that we would be working on fixing said problems.
 
Finari'i said:
Even the thought of hiring out your soldiers seems rather poorly thought out. They should fight for the Ymaryn and their allies, if politely asked, not for someone who has the right amount of coin.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Clarifying point here: we get to choose whether to hire out the mercenaries when people offer, they don't just get automatically yanked away whenever a foreign government has sufficient desire and money. So it's not actually quite that bad.
 
Note that IRL the power of clerks only became COMMON after:
-Wood pulp paper making paper VASTLY cheaper.
-Printing eliminating scribes as a skilled labor
-Telegraph made it all greatly more efficient to manage things over distances rather than requiring mid level decisionmakers at every node.
-Universities making it actually possible to train a top grade administrator without a massive family support network.

All the explosions of intermittent class warfare in thread is missing the point. You cannot run an empire at this tech level without a deeply entrenched upper class. Not when the algebraic concepts needed to actually balance the books requires expensive tutors, and nobody at all is going to be learning grand strategy, civil engineering and social dynamics at a cumulative expense of several large commoner families except for those who are certain to have careers in those skills.

And that our patrician class is very nearly as good an absolute class as you can get(aside from not having one, or having some kind of benevolent god/AI), because they devote most of their attention to each other, while deriving their objectives very heavily from the state success.

The Guilds, Traders and Priests won't be nearly so easy to manage.
 
Speaking of things we should do, there is one thing that I feel the thread has mostly ignored.

With distribute land coming on the table, we have a chance for something along the lines of border disputes and such coming up. Maybe not now, but I can definitely see it happening down the line that the governor of one land says that the mine or bit of farmland is his, but the governor of the other area is getting the taxes.

To counteract that we should add 'do survey actions when possible' in hopes of improving our mapping to the giant list of crap we need to do when stuff isn't on fire. Not sure where it would go on that list, really, but it should be on there.
 
Last edited:
anyway for something else, can megaprojects fall under king's agenda? for example if we pick a Connectivity agenda does that encourage and reward our factions and vassals to work on a canal or boundary passage?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top