Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
If I have to post inspirational music on every page to show those who have fallen that there is still hope then Crow damn it I will!
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- Location
- Australia
Claiming DL is corrupt when we have not did it yet is also a little silly
[X] veekie
I think Distribute Land combined with the enforce justice might not cause all of the problems some fear now we have taken steps to deal with the half exile situation. worse case outcome that i can see would be noble estates collecting taxes from free farmers, meaning this will not completely wreak the yeoman. We should take actions to make sure the farmers do not become slaves, there might be options for this once we do the law mega project. We might be lucky and end up with part of the land owned by free farmers that can act as a counterweight to patrician power and the most likely option is somewhere in the middle
A lot of players seem to fear that Distribute Land will lead to the rise of powerful nobles similar to the fall of the roman empire and the rise of feudalism afterwards. It was a centuries long process that started with the nobles of Rome securing total power, exempting themselves form having to pay taxes and the nobles gaining more and more land in large estates with large number of slaves. This started a process where the remaining free farmers ended up having to pay more taxes as time went on and eventually disappearing as a part of the society as they went into debt and lost there farms to the nobles who added them to there estates. they where able to replace the soldiers with the urban poor and later with mercenaries from outside the empire but the lower rank of trained officers commanding 100 men trained in engineering and other skills disappeared. Other problem included officials that would spend more in bribes to get a job then they would get in pay and where expectation to earn the difference in bribes. Badly defined rules of succession leading to frequent civil wars(one year saw 4 emperors take the throne backed by legions), the tradition that new emperors gave a bonus to the troop at his coronation often payed for by debasing the currency. The keeping of strong armies near the capital to defend against uprisings, under some emperors 40.000 men strong weakened the borders leading to more successful invasions. This caused a collapse of the economy and value of manufactured goods that no longer could be shipped as easy as before. The nobles began to see land and the goods produced on it as the source of wealth instead of the highly debased currency.
We are in a far better place then the Romans, our stronger economy means the relative economic power from owning land is lower, we got alternative centers of power in the trades and priests and the limitations on slavery will boost innovation, workers cost more and so the point where replacing a worker by a machine is effective is reached sooner.
I think Distribute Land combined with the enforce justice might not cause all of the problems some fear now we have taken steps to deal with the half exile situation. worse case outcome that i can see would be noble estates collecting taxes from free farmers, meaning this will not completely wreak the yeoman. We should take actions to make sure the farmers do not become slaves, there might be options for this once we do the law mega project. We might be lucky and end up with part of the land owned by free farmers that can act as a counterweight to patrician power and the most likely option is somewhere in the middle
A lot of players seem to fear that Distribute Land will lead to the rise of powerful nobles similar to the fall of the roman empire and the rise of feudalism afterwards. It was a centuries long process that started with the nobles of Rome securing total power, exempting themselves form having to pay taxes and the nobles gaining more and more land in large estates with large number of slaves. This started a process where the remaining free farmers ended up having to pay more taxes as time went on and eventually disappearing as a part of the society as they went into debt and lost there farms to the nobles who added them to there estates. they where able to replace the soldiers with the urban poor and later with mercenaries from outside the empire but the lower rank of trained officers commanding 100 men trained in engineering and other skills disappeared. Other problem included officials that would spend more in bribes to get a job then they would get in pay and where expectation to earn the difference in bribes. Badly defined rules of succession leading to frequent civil wars(one year saw 4 emperors take the throne backed by legions), the tradition that new emperors gave a bonus to the troop at his coronation often payed for by debasing the currency. The keeping of strong armies near the capital to defend against uprisings, under some emperors 40.000 men strong weakened the borders leading to more successful invasions. This caused a collapse of the economy and value of manufactured goods that no longer could be shipped as easy as before. The nobles began to see land and the goods produced on it as the source of wealth instead of the highly debased currency.
We are in a far better place then the Romans, our stronger economy means the relative economic power from owning land is lower, we got alternative centers of power in the trades and priests and the limitations on slavery will boost innovation, workers cost more and so the point where replacing a worker by a machine is effective is reached sooner.
I think you may be going about this the wrong way. I for on changed by vote out of hopelessness not hope.
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
He said that Patricians are corrupt. DL is just too unstable to do without terrible consequences when the the Patrician do it too much and get ahead of themselves without oversight.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
German communist propaganda, adapted and translated to the situation:
Jesus, due to veekie's tag mishandling, the tally all screwed up. Still:
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Guild Secondary] Art Patronage
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Guild Secondary] Art Patronage
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
"Ride for ruin and the world's ending!"
"Death! Death! Death!"
depicted: an accurate version of the patricians, with the spiritbonded crashing into their flank
...I know when I'm being railroaded. We can fight the patricians but there's no point in fighting the QM.
Which of the current plans to distribute land also harms the patricians in as many ways as possible? I'll vote for that.
Which of the current plans to distribute land also harms the patricians in as many ways as possible? I'll vote for that.
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
Well I suppose of you are too tired to continue then I will just have carry you.
We still do have a choice! We have power in our words and votes.
Come on, one last push. That all I ask. If we win then there is a chance of things becoming better then before. But we know what would happen if we give in. How the Patricians will amass more and more power until the Ymaryn are twisted into something other.
Stand by me and we will stay strong until Crow himself comes to devour the world.
- Location
- Austria
> railroaded
Nobody forced us to vote for advancing Arete, which is explicitly about increased elitism and social stratification.
- Location
- Canada
Ask for no quarter our foe gives none. Stand proud comrade.
We can't really harm them, that's the point of unsuppressible. I guess if we expanded until we killed all our cities then distributed land non-stop we would have the yeomen in change and get a different flavor of feudalism but that is it.
[X] [Merc] Yes
[X] [Agenda] Sea Control
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Sec] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Sec] Enforce Justice
[X] [Sec] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Sacred Forest
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Sec] Art Patronage
[X] [Guild Sec] More Warships
[X] [Agenda] Sea Control
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Sec] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Sec] Enforce Justice
[X] [Sec] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Sacred Forest
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Sec] Art Patronage
[X] [Guild Sec] More Warships
- Location
- Austria
Like, if we want more egalitarian values, by this point it should be obvious that Arete line is not going to evolve in egalitarian direction. We need to evolve Justice and Symphony for this.
And maybe Ploughshares too.
Or maybe we will get another Honour slot and do something which will prompt egalitarian value as a honourable thingie to emerge; but I doubt it.
And maybe Ploughshares too.
Or maybe we will get another Honour slot and do something which will prompt egalitarian value as a honourable thingie to emerge; but I doubt it.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
AN seems unwilling to just force through what he wants by decree. Hence also his "saved by the dice" comments. So there IS still the possibility to fight this war. Join the loyalist side!
The best I can come up with is crash as quickly as possible before new and improved elitism has a chance to catch root.
To be honest, had anyone pointed out that Arete has stratification as a con, which still should've been done and I am sorry I didn't, people 100% would've say "but look, the option says "at all levels"! Surely the evolution will lessen that con". And it's not like they could be proven wrong, at a time, it makes sense.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
As I recall, that exact prediction was made, and it did sound at least somewhat reasonable at the time. In retrospect I wish I'd been more skeptical, but hey, 20/20 hindsight and all that.
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
Hey sheep I have a question. I know you want feudalism and DL and all that but surely even you agree that we can't let the nobles have power over the king and be unchecked. The DL mission is a spite quest after all. They are being arrogant and must be brought back into line.