ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Then yes, unless the system has changed, we get secondary actions from non-free Cities.I meant non-free true cities, I'll fix that
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Austria
That won't remove action bloat at all though.
I recommend improving the efficiency and quality of the production of black soil rather than aiming for straight forestry or Expand Forest action to get 400 forests.
By the time one thousand years has passed, we would probably have gunpowder, making the problem of nomads moot.
There are three things we need to improve black soil production:
1) Charcoal (Efficient Charcoal Kilns)
2) Movement of waste materials (riverine access, more aqueducts, etc)
3) Mixing and crushing (Mills)
And of course, actually taking black soil actions so we gain access to terraform actions.
AN said we need better boats, horses, or roads, pick two. Even if docks doesn't improve our connectivity, we still want better boats.
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- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Hopefully our new
I should note that I'm not massively against them. They're an inefficient policy, but less so than the basic stat drips. Each one is worth something like 75% of a secondary action. This is significantly worse than the ~2 secondaries that some of them are worth, but a lot more than the ~20% that the basic stat drips give. If we fill up on Infrastructure and Skullduggery, it becomes competitive with the remaining options. Infrastructure is by far the most important for us to take though, since only player-controlled infrastructure is doubled. Everything else is just as good if the factions or the king takes it, but infrastructure has a massive power discrepancy.
They are an inefficient policy that was largely responsible for majority of our forestry growth. So, no, it wasn't a waste of policies.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Also, infrastructure makes/retains more cities, which make more policies.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
And, after the gov't reform, more actions.
We have taken infrastructure actions manually and our FCs have built infrastructure using their passives. If instead we had expanded forests ourselves and had more infrastructure passives, we would have more net total infrastructure+forests.
Now, some infrastructure depends upon the forests being available. There is a point of diminishing returns. The fact that we did 15 points of manual infrastructure last turn indicates that we have not yet reached that point.
We should be getting a lot more passives soon. I'm not against one or maybe two passives going to forestry to act as security against the infrastructure passives building Ironworks and baths when we can't afford the actions. However, we must accept that doing so is a significant loss in efficiency.
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Alright, I'm back, and it's time for more Repeated Action Clusters! This time, "Stop worrying we can totally generate Tech"
Method One: Chemical Engineering
The idea here is to do things that require tech, and stay stat-neutral
Study Alchemy
-2 Mysticism, -6 Wealth, +1 Tech, increased chance of new discoveries x2
Plant Cash Crops - Drugs
-2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth
Expand Black Soil
-1 Tech, +6 Econ Expansion
Net: 0 Tech (+1 if refunded), +1 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, -2 Econ, +4 EE, Alchemy, Drugs, and Black Soil
Repeatable Black Soil is interesting-it doesn't cost the econ or the forests that Main does, but generates tonnes of EE. Also, good synergy between Drugs and Alchemy, and Alchemy and Black Soil. I think Black Soil repeated bears more looking in to, as a tremendous EE gain, and apparently, our methods of generating mysticism are kinda poor.
Method 2: Artisanat Expansion
Support Artisans
-1 Econ, -6 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations x2
Plant Cash Crops - Luxuries
-2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects
Expand Black Soil
-1 Tech, +6 Econ Expansion
Net: -3 Econ, +5 EE, +3 Culture, +4 Tech (5 if refunded),
More tech, good culture, positive EE, (So a Expand Econ every so often could pay for the econ costs), and tons of innovation.
So in conclusion, we should seriously consider a Repeated Expand Black Soil action. It is super cheap in comparison to doing it manually, and it gets a ton of great EE.
Method One: Chemical Engineering
The idea here is to do things that require tech, and stay stat-neutral
Study Alchemy
-2 Mysticism, -6 Wealth, +1 Tech, increased chance of new discoveries x2
Plant Cash Crops - Drugs
-2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth
Expand Black Soil
-1 Tech, +6 Econ Expansion
Net: 0 Tech (+1 if refunded), +1 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, -2 Econ, +4 EE, Alchemy, Drugs, and Black Soil
Repeatable Black Soil is interesting-it doesn't cost the econ or the forests that Main does, but generates tonnes of EE. Also, good synergy between Drugs and Alchemy, and Alchemy and Black Soil. I think Black Soil repeated bears more looking in to, as a tremendous EE gain, and apparently, our methods of generating mysticism are kinda poor.
Method 2: Artisanat Expansion
Support Artisans
-1 Econ, -6 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations x2
Plant Cash Crops - Luxuries
-2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects
Expand Black Soil
-1 Tech, +6 Econ Expansion
Net: -3 Econ, +5 EE, +3 Culture, +4 Tech (5 if refunded),
More tech, good culture, positive EE, (So a Expand Econ every so often could pay for the econ costs), and tons of innovation.
So in conclusion, we should seriously consider a Repeated Expand Black Soil action. It is super cheap in comparison to doing it manually, and it gets a ton of great EE.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
@Academia Nut If some kind of event significantly damaged the forests, putting us over our sustainable limit, would we get an option to shut down some of the facilities that use them until things are repaired?
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Are you planning for king repeated actions, or faction repeated?
Because IIUC only faction repeated actions get the "main for secondary cost" bonus. King repeated actions are ordinary mains requiring a secondary action. But we can't spam faction repeated actions like that, because they cost passive policies and boost faction power.
Legion0047
Retired Shadowrunner.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- God Emperor
An reaction for more trees is more likely.
and we can be one turn over limit without lasting problems
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We have fairly strong protections against ecological damage. In fact we have not had any ecological damage ever sense we finished the Greater Sacred Forest megaproject.
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm now super confused-the half cost is only for faction versions? If so, I've gotta rework some things again. Can I get a quote?
I was planning them as king's actions, but if needed I could probably make it work with New Settlements instead of black soil, at least for the internal rework.
A passive policy sacrificed for the cost reduction still makes all of these super worthwhile, especially black soil.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If we ever go over our sustainable limit I expect that we will start buying wood from our less ecologically minded neighbors for a while. Just like we currently buy ore from our slave using neighbors right now. The Ymaryn seem to be willing to benefit from the sins of outsiders so long as they keep their own hands clean.
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- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
So, one last thought:
AN mentioned a ways back that, for other civilizations Forests are an invisible stat that doesn't really have an effect until it gets close to being depleted. So, a couple things: How far along do you all think our neighbors are in depleting their forest reserves, and what do you think the likely impact is going to be when they run out?
Personally, I think we're going to see Lumber introduced as a trade good, which would definitely interact with our Sustainable Forest stat in an interesting way. Maybe unused Sustainable Forest slots will start to produce Wealth? Should we build up a reserve now in case rising demand for Lumber makes the Traders want to start selling it?
What do you guys think?
AN mentioned a ways back that, for other civilizations Forests are an invisible stat that doesn't really have an effect until it gets close to being depleted. So, a couple things: How far along do you all think our neighbors are in depleting their forest reserves, and what do you think the likely impact is going to be when they run out?
Personally, I think we're going to see Lumber introduced as a trade good, which would definitely interact with our Sustainable Forest stat in an interesting way. Maybe unused Sustainable Forest slots will start to produce Wealth? Should we build up a reserve now in case rising demand for Lumber makes the Traders want to start selling it?
What do you guys think?
I think there's a fair argument for a Yeoman repeated Expand Forest action, and we then just suppress them or fail their quests every so often to push their faction power down.
We could also try to work out how to make the Yeomen's priorities change. It's quite possible to intertwine the rural elite's interests with the urban's. Ironworks and increased luxuries should help with this, as should the simple growth of the cities. Usually you don't want to get rid of the people you sell your staples to and receive high value ones in return.
Increasing production of cash crops will probably also help. A Yeomen growing cotton very directly needs the urban weavers. Pushing cash crops could also fracture the Yeomen into two factions with different interests, which should halve their net influence.
It's the rural poor that would then hate the cities, but no one cares about them.
We could also try to work out how to make the Yeomen's priorities change. It's quite possible to intertwine the rural elite's interests with the urban's. Ironworks and increased luxuries should help with this, as should the simple growth of the cities. Usually you don't want to get rid of the people you sell your staples to and receive high value ones in return.
Increasing production of cash crops will probably also help. A Yeomen growing cotton very directly needs the urban weavers. Pushing cash crops could also fracture the Yeomen into two factions with different interests, which should halve their net influence.
It's the rural poor that would then hate the cities, but no one cares about them.
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Legion0047
Retired Shadowrunner.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- God Emperor
lumber already is a trade good.
but we'd need at least the number of used forests in free forests to get to a wealth producing point in trading.
- Location
- Austria
I think I am going to vehemently oppose anything that reduces forests margin for profit. We are riding less than 1 turns' worth of error margin.
Suppression costs Stability, otherwise I would be absolutely on board with it.
Granted, I still might be, but Suppression is painful to take.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Repeating an action boosts its strength. For a king action, that just means it jumps from secondary to main. For faction actions, which are all mains to begin with, the original plan (in the threadmark) was to boost them to double main, but Academia Nut later decided on the "main with secondary cost" approach instead. That never applied to king repeated actions, because it didn't need to.
Maaaybe, but there are some really valuable passive policies.
If the sacrificed policy is one of the faction-controlled ones, I might agree with you, but if we have to give up a king-controlled policy, black soil isn't worth that.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Just the act of building cities takes away from their power and we know that is going to happen.
At our level of development, I suspect we will not ever saturate infrastructure development, simply because more powerful and better options will keep opening up.
I rather take black soil with mills and efficient charcoal production if possible.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
I'm absolutely not suggesting reducing our current forest margin. I'd like to significantly expand our forest margin, actually, to prevent problems emerging from increased demand for lumber abroad.
- Location
- Hell
Not actually an issue. By that time our income and project rewards would have cashed in.
Eh. Oh well.