Romv
A Memory of TREES
How so? You can check the vote tally yourself.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Ooh, so thanks to the combination of our legacy and the tech refund, we actually should gain +2 stats/phase while this war is ongoing. +1 Martial, and convert 1 Tech to Wealth which triggers the tech refund. Imagine if we had 2 tech refunds...
This actually will help us out a ton considering how many phases an epic age tends to bring.
Anyway, we've got a new passive policy incoming from Redshore. I'm split between Infrastructure and Vassal Support. We need Infrastructure since the guilds seem like they're going to force Ironworks through if we like it or not, and I'd really like to get the aqueduct in to prevent more disease. And to get another Governor's Palace for the tech refund. And we still need more baths. And the markets we'd really like to have built. Vassal Support should be obvious considering how much our Vassals are under attack.
This actually will help us out a ton considering how many phases an epic age tends to bring.
Anyway, we've got a new passive policy incoming from Redshore. I'm split between Infrastructure and Vassal Support. We need Infrastructure since the guilds seem like they're going to force Ironworks through if we like it or not, and I'd really like to get the aqueduct in to prevent more disease. And to get another Governor's Palace for the tech refund. And we still need more baths. And the markets we'd really like to have built. Vassal Support should be obvious considering how much our Vassals are under attack.
You do understand that we are going to upgrade our government next turn? No one's arguing for delaying it until next century, and there's no confirmation that it caused any particular problems right now. If something really bad is going to happen to us if won't solve the problem right this midturn, we're pretty screwed anyway, since we need to concentrate on Fornuch right now. It really can wait until we are not besieged by 10+ Cav nomad horde.
Also, Palace Crisis happened because no one was building the Palace because no one knew there was a government upgrade behind it. And we got hit by a climate shift.
Stallion pen popped, so we shouldn't have gained or lost any passive policies.
Huh, that's not reflected on the econ income on the stat sheet.
4x TC lvl1 = -8
2x FC lvl1 = -2
1x FC lvl3 = -3
+8 in City Support x2
That ends up at -5 econ, which is what the stat page is currently reporting. If Stallion Pen popped we should be at -3 and have 1 more Centralization Tolerance.
Look at the narrative:
At the games, we came up with a fancy new way of forging a curved blade which works very well with light cavalry using pattern welded steel to make it strong enough to withstand impact with people and armor on a ride past strike
1) Those participants who have the Pattern Welded Steel(which requires Case Hardened Steel and Hammer Mills, which requires Mills and Aqueducts) discovers Scimitars. Those without both realize that Scimitars exist, but cannot make them. They will make them as soon as they figure out how to get patterns onto their steel.
2) Those participants, upon seeing Scimitars, figure out how how to make pattern welded steel despite having only seen the finished product and not the process.
3) We somehow become unable to discover Scimitars because the other participants cannot do Scimitars.
1 aligns with the narrative logic presented in the update itself: Each party will roll 2 innovation rolls using their own tech base and share the results with all participants. Anyone who has the tech base to get it copies it. Anyone who doesn't...well too bad.
What this basically does is turn our neighbors into Marches for the purpose of generating weapon and armor technologies.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Fundamentally, I think you're being way too optimistic. If the assumption you make result in a decision with only benefits and no downsides, then odds are you're deluding yourself.
Our partners will understand a lot, probably most of our technology. We're not that far ahead. The idea that somehow we will be the only ones to profit is simply not realistic.
Our partners will understand a lot, probably most of our technology. We're not that far ahead. The idea that somehow we will be the only ones to profit is simply not realistic.
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I think @veekie 's explanation fit the available evidence present in the text. It's not just the mechanic, but also the narrative presented in the story.
Which one seem to be more simulationist to you?
1) Those with the technology can copy it. Those who don't, can't.
2) Everyone is obligated to share how they achieved a certain result.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
This is the text that explains how it works..
It says that the innovation rolls are pooled together. Not, done seperatly and then exchanged. I think this implies quite strongly that the results will be shared. Not that only we will get something useful out of it.
If you want a narrative. The innovations are the result of people working on/blatantly copying minor improvements of other artisans at the games. Thus, given that each nation is involved in the preparation somewhere, all of them understand the final result.
If the Games were meant to steal others technology, it would have said so. It doesn't. It explicitedly says it's pooled innovation and that the results are shared. To assume that means that the results aren't shared seems completely illogical.
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I'd note that this exact process happened with historical Japan, where they simply couldn't figure out how to copy a cannon because they had no technology for drilling metal...which meant they couldn't copy cannons until they managed to steal a smith who knew how to drill and then they were making cannons everywhere.
We have alchemical and forging processes running on water power which would be ruinously expensive to do by slavepower, we have temperatures which you can't attain without high quality charcoal and we have probably the longest continuous practice of alchemy in the world, with the glassware and porcelain to withstand reactions. These are things which are difficult to copy, though not impossible, it makes anything depending on them basically magic.
I mean, heck, take concrete. To everyone else it basically is magic. We can take sand, add water and make rock. How do you even begin to copy that from seeing the end result unless you knew the reactions and particularly the proportions for the reactions.
We have alchemical and forging processes running on water power which would be ruinously expensive to do by slavepower, we have temperatures which you can't attain without high quality charcoal and we have probably the longest continuous practice of alchemy in the world, with the glassware and porcelain to withstand reactions. These are things which are difficult to copy, though not impossible, it makes anything depending on them basically magic.
I mean, heck, take concrete. To everyone else it basically is magic. We can take sand, add water and make rock. How do you even begin to copy that from seeing the end result unless you knew the reactions and particularly the proportions for the reactions.
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
However, in Japan's case the issue was that the only thing they saw where finished cannons. At the Games, the other side's trained artisans will be able to directly observe ours and others trained artisans while they're working. They may even talk to them, or make friends. Plenty of opportunity to figure things out.
The Games are after all not an expo of finished goods. They're showcases of skills. Remember, we discovered the kilns because there was a game about building the hottest fire. All the other side needs to do to steal that innovation is send someone to have a good look at the kiln construction. Same goes for all the other stuff.
And I'm pretty sure all the others have mills already. They just get to build them at half our cost.
The Games are after all not an expo of finished goods. They're showcases of skills. Remember, we discovered the kilns because there was a game about building the hottest fire. All the other side needs to do to steal that innovation is send someone to have a good look at the kiln construction. Same goes for all the other stuff.
And I'm pretty sure all the others have mills already. They just get to build them at half our cost.
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I don't think this will be happening at the Games.
Lot of potential for intrigue actions, though.
Oh, we will give plenty of technology out.
But, by the word of AN, a lot of our achievements are rooted in the necessary infrastructure.
Also, by word of AN, most policies around us do not bother with infrastructure much/at all.
So even were they to steal certain things, they would be hard pressed to copy them in relevant numbers.
And if they decide to do more regarding their infrastructure - well, they will be less likely to attack us then.
Sharing the Games has its downsides, but not doing it has them as well, as explicitly stated by AN our neighbors thinking we "find them not good enough" but one of them - long term resentment can rise from this.
I am for improving diplomacy here.
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What it comes down to for me is that we don't have enough control over our people to prevent our tech leak. So far, we've seen:
-Our traders giving away strategic assets (Greenshore traders gave iron to the Metal Workers)
-Neighboring countries performing intrigue missions to steal it (Highland kingdom kidnapped smiths)
-Our artisans leaving to do work in other countries (to Second Sons, now Storm Ymaryn)
-Nomads enslaving our people
And since we now have a trait that specifically means that we leak tech (Pride in Acceptance), and since our innovation rolls have become almost prohibitively expensive, I think that the international artisan games help us more than hurt us.
-Our traders giving away strategic assets (Greenshore traders gave iron to the Metal Workers)
-Neighboring countries performing intrigue missions to steal it (Highland kingdom kidnapped smiths)
-Our artisans leaving to do work in other countries (to Second Sons, now Storm Ymaryn)
-Nomads enslaving our people
And since we now have a trait that specifically means that we leak tech (Pride in Acceptance), and since our innovation rolls have become almost prohibitively expensive, I think that the international artisan games help us more than hurt us.
Do you expect diplomacy to prevent all wars, even with game participants? I think not.
Completed Txolla's action history.
The point about inovation that many do not seem to understand is there is adifference between being able to reverse engeneer something and producing in in suffiecient enough quantities to be useful. Our civilization is not very advanced for it's time, but also has a sufficient knowledge base to produce enough stuff. Yes okay, our neighbours may copy some of our tech, but it will cost the a lot to produce it. For example if they copy our kilns, I doubt they will get more outof it than a few artisans producing at most small series of very expensive porcelaine. So I go right ahead. The more they have to pay to keep their nobels happy, the lees they will have for paying their armies.
[X] [Inno] Looks important, invest heavily (-3 Wealth, -3 Mysticism, -1 Tech, ???)
[X] [AG] They may join (Open games, ???)
[X] [Policy] Switch to Mass Levy
[X] [Kick] 1 Stability, 2 Temp Econ damage
[X] [Trade] Push the guilds to the limit to meet demands (Trade Tech for Wealth, up to 5 per phase, to attempt to top up Wealth)
[X] [Inno] Looks important, invest heavily (-3 Wealth, -3 Mysticism, -1 Tech, ???)
[X] [AG] They may join (Open games, ???)
[X] [Policy] Switch to Mass Levy
[X] [Kick] 1 Stability, 2 Temp Econ damage
[X] [Trade] Push the guilds to the limit to meet demands (Trade Tech for Wealth, up to 5 per phase, to attempt to top up Wealth)
- Location
- Staring into the void
What if... what if they get our black soil and forest tech. Then they'll have planted trees for us, saving us time when we eventually conqueror the world.
What if... what if they get our black soil and forest tech. Then they'll have planted trees for us, saving us time when we eventually conqueror the world.
They don't make black soil as it's usually too much work compared to just taking other people's stuff. That's why black soils hadn't literally spread to anyone for millennia.
So the Txolla have all of 3 Roads. Fantastic.
- Location
- Canada
[X] [Inno] Looks important, invest heavily (-3 Wealth, -3 Mysticism, -1 Tech, ???)
[X] [AG] They may join (Open games, ???)
[X] [Policy] Switch to Mass Levy
[X] [Kick] 2 Stability, 4 Temp Econ damage
[X] [Trade] Push the guilds to the limit to meet demands (Trade Tech for Wealth, up to 5 per phase, to attempt to top up Wealth)
[X] [AG] They may join (Open games, ???)
[X] [Policy] Switch to Mass Levy
[X] [Kick] 2 Stability, 4 Temp Econ damage
[X] [Trade] Push the guilds to the limit to meet demands (Trade Tech for Wealth, up to 5 per phase, to attempt to top up Wealth)
- Location
- Illinois
A short century or so building some starting infrastructure =/= literally millennia of infrastructure.
They'll probably have some good stuff, but they won't have lvl 3 ironworks, or tons of mills available to them.
Aqueducts? Sure, that makes sense. But that is still only a part of what our infrastructure consists of, and will only help them do projects that require that low level infrastructure.
They are also not as densely populated as we are, so those three roads do a lot more than they would for us.
IIRC, Txolla is worth something like 3-4 provinces right now? Considering then that our 17 provinces have a max of 55 roads, that would imply each province needs something like 3-4 roads per.
Meaning that Txolla need 9-16 roads for complete coverage, so they have between 33%-20% coverage.
Not great, but not abysmal either.
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They have slaves to do the dirty work.