Can we chain vassals? Like, if Txolla wanted to make a vassal, could they?
Uh.... I don't particularly see why it should not be possible. The limiter there might just be lack of social advancement.

Now, specifically for Txolla they probably can't do it since they are a colony and can't do a war to conquer someone. They can defend themselves though.
 
Alternatively we are entering an epic age because one of our subordinates went broke without unpaid labor and decided to rebel in support of the Highlanders.
 
Alternatively we are entering an epic age because one of our subordinates went broke without unpaid labor and decided to rebel in support of the Highlanders.
In that case the last update, which introduced the ban on unpaid labour, should have massively shifted the loyalty stats of our subordinates.

However:
Heaven Hawks: L5/5
Txolla: L5/5
Thunder Horse: L5/5

Western Wall: L3/5
Greenshore: L3/5
Tinriver: L3/5
Amer Road: L5/5
 
This is not true.

I'm not quite sure how do you arrived at the conclusion that water management, Black Soil, organization, and generational forestry somehow don't do anything useful in the lowlands, but again, you're wrong.

The rivers already flood to predictable schedule, handling the majority of irrigation and water management. This flooding brings fresh silt to rejuvenate the soil on a yearly basis, obviating the need to artificially enrich soil. In the flat lowlands erosion is a non-issue, and erosion is the reason the Ymaryn are obsessed with the forest in the first place.
 
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The same. The Ymaryn get lowlands yields by turning the marginal land into fertile land with epic water management, centralized organization, accumulated black soil as deep as your leg, and generational forestry. In the lowlands there's no need for that, so all of that development just goes to waste, hence why the lowlands are such a pain in the ass for us. They offer no marginal advantage to us, but huge marginal advantages to people who want to beat or heads in and take out stuff. It'd be better for us if they simply didn't exist.
I do believe there are other posters who disagree with that - and with neither sides showing any posts with WOG about it, this would likely turn into a back-and-worth soonish...
 
This is not true.

I'm not quite sure how do you arrived at the conclusion that water management, Black Soil, organization, and generational forestry somehow don't do anything useful in the lowlands, but again, you're wrong.

The problem is diminishing returns. Plants can only get so healthy. There's a point where you've done everything you can and the only way to get even better yields is to invent some different tech, like improved farming tools.

Even if the tech we currently have would improve things in the lowlands farming wise, it's very likely the improvements aren't enough to make it economically feasible when the yields are already very good even without it.
 
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The rivers already flood to predictable schedule, handling water management. This flooding brings fresh silt to rejuvenate the soil on a yearly basis, obviating the need to artificially enrich soil. In the flat lowlands erosion is a non-issue.

And that is why Mesopotamia (Babylon and so on) or the Nile were famous for having extremely complex water management systems since very ancient times... Indeed in the first case the destruction of said system by the mongols is generally being viewed as one of the primary reasons of the decline of the region in the aftermath.
 
I have this hilarious image of *everyone* piling onto the HK at the same time being the "Epic" thing happening.

The nomad king comes to the games, hears about the HK, some of their values we didn't know about trigger and we get WAAAAGGHH going through our lands. Then swamp people go and do an preemptive attack, Khem return and start beating the crap out of the HK in order to get some of their old land back, the whatevers they were - Free Hills? - get incensed at something and BOOM: Highlanders get the Ymarryn-treatment for change.
 
I have this hilarious image of *everyone* piling onto the HK at the same time being the "Epic" thing happening.

The nomad king comes to the games, hears about the HK, some of their values we didn't know about trigger and we get WAAAAGGHH going through our lands. Then swamp people go and do an preemptive attack, Khem return and start beating the crap out of the HK in order to get some of their old land back, the whatevers they were - Free Hills? - get incensed at something and BOOM: Highlanders get the Ymarryn-treatment for change.
This is also possible, They were skirmishing with Freehills, are on Khem land and are looking like they'll attack the Harmurri.
However I bet we'd have to hire the nomads if they were interested in getting into a fight.(also the nomad king could lead a campaign in the opposite direction off the edge of the map)

Edit: That said, is everyone else over the plague already? We don't know how many people figured out it could stay in animals.
 
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*looks at the modern middle east/not-so-fertile-crescent*

Desertification from intensive agriculture still happens.

(Looks at Aswan, Mosul, and Haditha dams eliminating the old seasonal flooding and silt depositing)



And that is why Mesopotamia (Babylon and so on) or the Nile were famous for having extremely complex water management systems since very ancient times... Indeed in the first case the destruction of said system by the mongols is generally being viewed as one of the primary reasons of the decline of the region in the aftermath.

The lowlands are an Egypt expy, which did have paltry water management systems in comparison to the Ymaryn, and the Mongols never ravaged it.
 
This is also possible, They were skirmishing with Freehills, are on Khem land and are looking like they'll attack the Harmurri.
However I bet we'd have to hire the nomads if they were interested in getting into a fight.(also the nomad king could lead a campaign in the opposite direction off the edge of the map)
If this does happen (minus the nomad horde), I would vote for supplying either Freehills or the Harmurri with our mercenaries.
 
The rivers already flood to predictable schedule, handling the majority of irrigation and water management. This flooding brings fresh silt to rejuvenate the soil on a yearly basis, obviating the need to artificially enrich soil. In the flat lowlands erosion is a non-issue, and erosion is the reason the Ymaryn are obsessed with the forest in the first place.

Doing all the stuff we do to keep the hills fertile does require manpower though, and given that Econ represents extra manpower as much as it represents food, I still think there's a major boost to be acquired.
 
In a serious fight, we go in with a Levy Policy, instantly summoning 40+ points of martial.
"Instantly" is not the right word to use. It takes a long time to summon the levy. As I understand it, the bloodbath in the war against the Khemetri happened when the two main armies finally got to the battlefield, which was the third phase of the war. A levy would take longer to summon than the main army.
 
*looks at potentially oblique argument for not integrating the Lowlands*

Okaaaaaaaaaaaay... I'm just going to be scratching my head about that idea.


As to whether or not we would get improvements out of the Lowlands, which exceed the yield we can achieve in our hills the answer is yes by some uncertain but large margin.

The reasons for this are:

Chinampas, invented by the previous rulers of the Lowlands the Xohyr, these at optimum levels can provide seven yields a year. Currently in our hills we don't really have means of effectively using these, they require more plains like geography, or at least less steep topography. This is less about plant health and more about sheer number of plants.

All the Lowlands are not created equal, by WoAN(which I need to find). The northern bits below the hills that connected us to the Thunder Speaker are pretty bleh in terms of water. I can't recall what their fertility is like, but it is better than our hills. This is the main northern part of Txolla, and what we would get if we integrate them, leaving them with the southern areas closer to the Harmurri which are better. Black soil and our irrigation techniques make this much better and the sheer land area alone would be an improvement over our hills. We may or may not get some of the middle areas which are somewhat better.

Black soil, regardless of the base fertility of the soil in the place we put it down(at least in this region), helps with water retention and minerals. This is plant health, but for the lowlands it ends up being more about being able to support far larger numbers of plants without draining the area of nutrients.

And then forestry takes the area, forts it up versus Nomads and anyone else, and prevents desertification. At that amount of forests our charcoal problems also become less of an issue. To be clear I am not talking about covering them in trees, but striking a good balance between food fields and forests.

Here is some WoAN about the Lowlands.


They're kind of locked into a perpetual cycle, and most of the fighting can be characterized as a form of organized raiding, but basically both sides kind of see themselves as protecting themselves from and getting revenge on their neighbours. That the upper classes tend to grow powerful based off of things like enslaving the enemy is a bonus. The big thing is that everyone knows that if any one group can conquer, hold, and centralize the lowlands they would have the resources to roll over all opposition, so they fight to deny resources as much as gain more for themselves.



Not as bad as last time, but major failure could cause many of their gains to collapse, reducing them down to a single city state once more.



It was significant, but the big issue was that the cities were all interdependent, and once that broke down each city fell into a death spiral of not enough land under control to feed population -> populations contract from death/emigration -> fewer soldiers to beat back the bandits and control the countryside -> less land under control to feed the population.

The combo would likely root out more corruption than it creates, yes.



The Palace will do several things, and there are a number of choices that will affect exactly what is done.



Yuuuuuuuuup. It's why someone holding the lowlands long enough to begin digesting it and centralizing scares everyone else involved in the mess. With long term stability the population will explode and provide a nearly endless well of manpower to draw upon.

Remember how the Xoh were able to support a True City with a relatively tiny area?

Extend that to the entire lowlands. The place is agriculturally rich, you just need to not wipe out a significant fraction of the population through violence and damage the farms every generation.
 
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The lowlands are an Egypt expy, which did have paltry water management systems in comparison to the Ymaryn, and the Mongols never ravaged it.

No, they are Mesopotamia expy.

Besides, mechanically new settlements in Lowlands give us 6-7 Expansion slots, while new settlements in hills give us ~1-3 expansion slots.

What AN meant by "can utilize marginal land better" is reflected by Black Soil action generating 2-3 slots, which, if taken a couple of times, can bring shitty settlement on par with default Lowland settlement. Without taking a ~Secondary Black Soil per new settlement our settlements are inferior to Lowland ones. And we are almost not taking Black Soil nowadays.

Plus. Nobody says we cannot use Black Soil in lowland settlements either - fertilizing farther-from-rivers spots there. Indeed, I recall Thunder Horse - lowland vassal - using Black Soil + New Settlement...which brought them +8-10 EE slots or so I imagine.
 
"Instantly" is not the right word to use. It takes a long time to summon the levy. As I understand it, the bloodbath in the war against the Khemetri happened when the two main armies finally got to the battlefield, which was the third phase of the war. A levy would take longer to summon than the main army.
This is partially correct.

Here is the WoAN in regards to Levy and the Pure.

The site where Xohyr used to be, and the rivers. That's about it. Now, there's lots of tributaries and the like beyond the two main rivers, but those are the primary hard points.



Yes, but you would have a full phase with nothing but scratch militia to throw at the nomads until you finished mobilizing.

It will be ready one phase after you turn on the policy, so if you go now it will be ready next phase. If you chose to wait until the next turn, it will not be ready until the midturn (or rather the half-way to midturn point, most likely).
So if we went back in time, turned it on in Expensive Free Labor, it would be ready by the next update. Which is unfortunately enough time to fuck us up if you are a fast moving deathball.
 
No, they are Mesopotamia expy.

Besides, mechanically new settlements in Lowlands give us 6-7 Expansion slots, while new settlements in hills give us ~1-3 expansion slots.

What AN meant by "can utilize marginal land better" is reflected by Black Soil action generating 2-3 slots, which, if taken a couple of times, can bring shitty settlement on par with default Lowland settlement. Without taking a ~Secondary Black Soil per new settlement our settlements are inferior to Lowland ones. And we are almost not taking Black Soil nowadays.

Plus. Nobody says we cannot use Black Soil in lowland settlements either - fertilizing farther-from-rivers spots there. Indeed, I recall Thunder Horse - lowland vassal - using Black Soil + New Settlement...which brought them +8-10 EE slots or so I imagine.

I think i already said something about this, but here i go again *pauses Slave Simulator in Space*

What we really want from the lowlands are the rivers, not the floodplains per see, because if we get the floodplains and use it to make farms, we will trigger the river killer called Aggradation - Wikipedia, so yeah, what we will do is:
1 - Forest the riverbed 100 meters at each side
2 - Dig Irrigation Channels to the internal part of Txolla land.
3 - Black Soil the internal areas of Txolla
4 - ???
5 - Profit
 
Doing all the stuff we do to keep the hills fertile does require manpower though, and given that Econ represents extra manpower as much as it represents food, I still think there's a major boost to be acquired.

Perhaps, but given the tremendous disparity in their value to us relative to their value to potential enemies and the huge target they paint on our backs if we try to keep them out of the hands of said enemies I can't help but fantasize about just turning it into a nuclear waste dump and forgetting about the whole region.

-and we really might be able to do that. There are two main rivers going into the lowlands, and we're already damming and redirecting one. Do the same thing in the other so they meet in the middle and you've irrigated the entire northern hills. Send the outflow north and you get a megariver cutting deep into the steps and turning them into ultrafertile land we can build a network of water-connected fortified settlements on without worrying about anybody but the nomads who are crap at siege warfare against river-supplied cities in marshy terrain.
 
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I really wonder how much the damn dam is going to fuck over the Highland Kingdom. They might panic if they find out that we now control the output of their only big waterway.
 
Perhaps, but given the tremendous disparity in their value to us relative to their value to potential enemies and the huge target they paint on our backs if we try to keep them out of the hands of said enemies I can't help but fantasize about just turning it into a nuclear waste dump and forgetting about the whole region.

-and we really might be able to do that. There are two main rivers going into the lowlands, and we're already damming and redirecting one. Do the same thing in the other so they meet in the middle and you've irrigated the entire northern hills. Send the outflow north and you get a megariver cutting deep into the steps and turning them into ultrafertile land we can build a network of water-connected fortified settlements on without worrying about anybody but the nomads who are crap at siege warfare against river-supplied cities in marshy terrain.
You think a thread that balks at wiping out a hostile civ's noble families and priests would be willing to condemn millions (of our own people at that) to a watery grave? People hesitate to fight a civ that has consistently thrown their weight around at us and proven hostile multiple times. Also I like the lowlands so screw this plan, we need the endless reserves of manpower to get started on our Great Wall expy.
 
Omake: A cold moment in the future

Guided by two kinsmen holding sky lights, tall metal sticks with cages of light that don't burn the same way wooden sicks of fire do. Shhkala shivered beneath her three layers of clothes, walking further down the tunnel dug into the snow.

Her team had risked much to travel this far from the city of the Crystal Maze. Five years spent looking for the markers left by the remnants of the Ymar civilizations before the Collapse. Days of digging straight down through miles of snow covered land. And now, if the talking stone was to be believed, she would find the object that gave the original Ymar the awe and respect of their neighbors before...

Eyes of dark green emerald shined down from the giant statue of a woman holding three masks in one hand, a pole with ancient tribal decorations in the other, and at her feet rested a slab of rock with markings Shhkala recognized. They might have finally found it, an answer to ever cold world of the sky. Perhaps a clue to how to fix the world that grew colder with each passing year. If this statue is one of those the witnesses that saw the Ymar vanish had found after years of silence from the Ymar, before they gained the courage to steal the wonders of Ymar for themselves. And if she can read the familiar markings.

Shhkala grabbed the bag on a supply sled some distance away from the statue. Sent down earlier in the day with the daily rations for the rest of the crew. Hands covered in large well insulated mittens rummage through the bag for her book filled with notes on the Ymar she copied so long ago from the records in the library within the city of the Crystal Maze. Once found, Shhkala spends hours to create something from the markings on the slab of rock.

"You got something yet?" asks a crewman, holding a bag with the label 'Rations' out to her.

Shhkala looks down at her notes, to look at the most recent guess of what the stone might mean.

We saw the light of a wandering star,
who talked with voice divine.
Abuse! Teachers! Betrayer!
Caution. Our living will feed again.


Then back at the crewman.
"Maybe, but I might be translating something wrong."

The crewman nodded. "Take your time. A thousand guesses won't appease the spirits if you are always wrong." Shhkala raised an eyebrow at the crewman quoting a phrase she said once at the beginning of the expedition.

The crewman tried to explain, "I'm not saying the spirits actually exist, but if we can put the world right, by sending word back that the ruins of Ymar have been found. Have them send us aid. If we can prove this is a Ymar ruin, not one of the many duds that claimed to be Ymar. Maybe we'll find what caused the world to be this way, and fix it."

Shhkala wanted to scoff at the optimistic crewman. The Ymar, the greatest civilization ever seen, failed to fix the world. How could a mere city of rodents and snakes have a chance to succeed where the Ymar failed? The whole point of the expedition was to gain, according to those tablets she was sure were accurately translated, the chests of gems each building in the land of the Ymar held.

Shhkala sighed, needed to put on a show at least. " If this is a mark of the Ymar then we would be on the borders of their land." Arms point around at snow walls. "We would need to either dig in different locations, or expand this snow cave your group have built."

The crewman shrugged, "What's one more year looking for the bones of the dead?"

"One more year then," Shhkala replied. One more year before the riches of Ymar would be hers.



Author's Note: A short snippet based on a what if the Ymaryn collapsed? In this AU the Ymaryn collapsed because an alien visitor from outer space arrived bearing gifts that accelerated the development of the Ymaryn. The Ymaryn became a powerful civilization with tech too advanced beyond their understanding. One misstep with the tech caused the accidental teleportation of the planet further away from the sun. Another misstep had a piece of advanced tech involving time travel fall into the hands of a small village outside the Ymaryn's borders. The small village slowly killed off the Ymaryn one by one, until none were left. However, the time travel tech got stuck in a time loop before a Lawful Good user could stop an ice age from covering the entire world. Fortunately, some of the neighboring civilizations were fast learners when they plundered the remnants of the Ymaryn. Those few quick lerners used highly advanced terraforming tech to reshape the land into strongholds against the cold. A couple hundred years later and the planet is rapidly cooling. The expedition Shhkala is a part of is one incredibly mad genius's desperate gambit to stop the end of the world also called plan #67green.

If someone wants to play around with this scenario in an omake, go ahead. I doubt I'll come back to this anytime soon.
 
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You think a thread that balks at wiping out a hostile civ's noble families and priests would be willing to condemn millions (of our own people at that) to a watery grave? People hesitate to fight a civ that has consistently thrown their weight around at us and proven hostile multiple times. Also I like the lowlands so screw this plan, we need the endless reserves of manpower to get started on our Great Wall expy.

I don't recall any part of that involving drowning millions of people.
 
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