-2 Diplo from Skullduggery
Already accounted for. That's why the diplo income is 5 and not 7.
We can't not do that. I'm not wasting stats on supporting them when there is no failure penalty.
Takes no stability increasing actions
We're at 1.
Would still just be improved by switching the ceramics with textiles since it means more martial
Would still just be further improved by switching a docks with textiles, which could free up an expand economy for something important
We're going to have enough martial for our purposes and getting innovations for ships, one of the things we need to fix our connectivity issues, is well worth not getting us super strong on martial.
 
More of a general question for people, but why is there even a need to use the main turn to declare war ourselves? Having the HK attack the lowlands, where we can better utilize our Cavalry and they have no defensive bonus, is pretty much the best situation we could ask for. This would save the actions for a react vote, give us unquestionable moral high ground and maybe even draw in the Freehills if we use the intervention CB and can get them to help out their follow games partner.

I'm just not seeing a reason to jump the gun here.
You're assuming nothing will happen to distract us within that time frame. That is not a safe bet. Ever.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
Er, the data is nice, but you misread that hilariously.

For comparison, modern agriculture gives for plants that need a lot maybe 400 kg pure nitrogen per hectare. 210 tons would probably cover the ground in a 10 cm layer of pure, concentrated chemical fertilizer that would thoroughly sterilize the field for likely decades and cause horrible damage to the groundwater.

What that (still awesome) poster says is that per ton, there are 1.9 to 2.1% nitrogen. Or 19 to 21 kg of N in various forms.

The trials they did then demonstrated that Black Soil (both Low and High Temperature) were not as good as modern chemical fertilizer, but were fairly close to it.

10 tons of Terra Preta per hectare:

Control: 2.35 tons of wheat per hectare
Low Temp Terra Preta : 6.65 t
High Temp Terra Preta: 5.1
Chemical Fertilizer without TP: 7.95

That's a difference of 1.3 tons per hectare between Terra Preta and synthetic fertilizer. That's actually pretty damn good. Sadly, there is no mention as to the application of fungicides, but it's likely. As such, we can't use that easily as a baseline for Ymaryn agri output.

For comparison, most everyone else around us without TP has to be satisfied with a measly 2.35 tons per hectare. Or about 60% less. And then we add the Ironworks that reduce the workload to get there.

The second table is a bit less interesting as it only concerns plant height. That has an influence on photosynthesis area and thus how good the grain will be (it's more complicated than that). But it also shows that escalating the amount of TP past 10 tons has diminishing returns and is unlikely to be worth it for the Ymaryn as getting and applying 100 tons per hectare is some serious work.


TL;DR:

Ymaryn are Bullshit.

Thanks, i'm bad at reading data and i'm happy there's someone else to say i'm wrong reading data.

Thanks again, next time i will throw data at you.

You could actually made a condensed post about terra preta, would you like it?
 
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We can't not do that. I'm not wasting stats on supporting them when there is no failure penalty.

We're at 1.

We're going to have enough martial for our purposes and getting innovations for ships, one of the things we need to fix our connectivity issues, is well worth not getting us super strong on martial.
Ten wealth is not unpayable next turn, it's a decent quest and we need the Support to freely fail their tantrum quest. We'll need to Support them eventually regardless.

More stability is going to be desirable for all sorts of reasons. We're trying to fix one of our oldest institutions and going to war.

Getting boat innovations instead of martial while going into war is not worth it. Furthermore, this is only the case if you're using the majority of our actions to overflow. Your plan is simply using as many actions as possible and cutting other priorities to cover up not having cash crops in it.
The HK aren't attacking both of us at the same time. They will attack the Har first, then after they beat them they will attack us. If we wait for them to come to us like you want, the Harmurri will have to be abandoned.
You're assuming nothing will happen to distract us within that time frame. That is not a safe bet. Ever.
What are you talking about? When a games partner is attacked, we gain a CB to intervene. If they do this during this turn, we will gain a react vote to come to their aid. That's how this works. There's no 'getting distracted' or abandoning them.
 
What are you talking about? When a games partner is attacked, we gain a CB to intervene. If they do this during this turn, we will gain a react vote to come to their aid. That's how this works. There's no 'getting distracted' or abandoning them.
Based on what the last chapter said, I suspect that the HK is going to be attacking during the main turn. If they don't I'm fine with waiting a bit, but I'm operating under the assumption that the HK are ready to attack at any moment now.

I had thought you were saying we should wait for them to attack us, so we had the terrain advantage, not that we should wait for a reaction command.
 
What are you talking about? When a games partner is attacked, we gain a CB to intervene. If they do this during this turn, we will gain a react vote to come to their aid. That's how this works. There's no 'getting distracted' or abandoning them.
And if they don't and just start forting the hell up on the minors they did take and wait until something inevitably happens to us before making their next move, either attacking us or the Harm, we'll be too distracted to safely deal with them.

Are they being stupid now? Yes.

Will they continue being stupid? That remains to be seen. Giving your opponent time to realize and start fixing their mistake is generally a bad plan.
 
The HK aren't attacking both of us at the same time. They will attack the Har first, then after they beat them they will attack us. If we wait for them to come to us like you want, the Harmurri will have to be abandoned.

Do we have the obligation to intervene in foreign affairs if one of the state is a Game attendee and do we want to have such obligation? The Game's reputation was damaged when we attacked Trelli over that slave issue which caused KH to pull out and support Trelli, remember? Sure we should make sure HK doesn't have opportunity to hit us but we might use risky reason, such as they want the entire Lowland thus planning to attack Texolla which count as diplomatic insult.
 
We can't not do that. I'm not wasting stats on supporting them when there is no failure penalty.

The Traders' next quest is explicitly going to be a spite quest since we're voting to reform the Half-Exiles. It's probably going to have a vicious punishment and be all but impossible to complete. There's zero reason to waste our free negation now when we could put off the Traders for a turn, complete their quest and get the nice reward, and then negate the incoming spite quest.
 
Do we have the obligation to intervene in foreign affairs if one of the state is a Game attendee and do we want to have such obligation? The Game's reputation was damaged when we attacked Trelli over that slave issue which caused KH to pull out and support Trelli, remember? Sure we should make sure HK doesn't have opportunity to hit us but we might use risky reason, such as they want the entire Lowland thus planning to attack Texolla which count as diplomatic insult.
It's more a matter of strategy honestly. The Harmurri are friendly, and are very likely to stay so because our existence actually benefits their security. Having a border where we don't need to worry about one of our neighbors one day snapping and trying to nom one of our vassals is definitely worth the price we'd have to pay here.

Not to mention the HK are a threat to us, and have actually clearly stated that they will attack us soon. I'd much rather we have an ally to turn any war with the HK into a two front one than wait and have to fight a fully unified HK.
 
It's more a matter of strategy honestly. The Harmurri are friendly, and are very likely to stay so because our existence actually benefits their security. Having a border where we don't need to worry about one of our neighbors one day snapping and trying to nom one of our vassals is definitely worth the price we'd have to pay here.

Not to mention the HK are a threat to us, and have actually clearly stated that they will attack us soon. I'd much rather we have an ally to turn any war with the HK into a two front one than wait and have to fight a fully unified HK.
They also tried to start a civil war and will probably continue intrigue missions against us. They were the first known intrigue polity, keep in mind.
 
Not to mention the HK are a threat to us, and have actually clearly stated that they will attack us soon. I'd much rather we have an ally to turn any war with the HK into a two front one than wait and have to fight a fully unified HK.
plus dat lowland, dat mountain pass chain, trying to force them to release Khem's colonies so we can once more have the opportunity for trade there, etc.
 
Analysis and Diffcheckers -- "Loggerhead"​

Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)

@Academia Nut @veekie @PrimalShadow @zamin @BungieONI
General
Diplomacy 27/27 (+1) [+6]
-Intrigue 3 [+0]
Economy 27/27 (+5) [+5-8]
-Sustainable Forests 30{37}/34
-Econ Expansion 7 [+8-5] [Overcrowding Min: -5]
Martial 11/37 {34/39}
-Light Cavalry 4
Naval 1
Wealth 7/24 (+1) [+9]
+3.5 Salt&Gold
+3 = 3 Strategic
+4.5 = 4.5 Luxury
+5 Markets
-1 Units
-6 Maintenance
Total: +9
Diplo 25 -> 27 (+1)​
Initial 25
+1 (Trade Mission)
Subtotal: 26
+1 (Overflow from Culture)
Subtotal: 27
+(+1)(Trade Mission)
Total: 27 (+1)
Minimum roll on trade mission (range of 1-3), alas.
Intrigue 5 -> 3​
Initial 5
-2 (Tear out)
Total: 3
Econ 24 -> 27 (+5)​
Initial 24
-1 (Blackbirds)
-2 (Spirit Bonded)
-1 (Trade Mission)
-2 (Palace Annex)
+12 (Expand Econ)
-2 (Refugees Out)
Subtotal: 28
-1 (Overflow to wealth)
Subtotal: 27
+(+5) (Refugees In)
Total: 27 (+5)
Taking the stab hit caused outflow to the Storm Ymaryn, unfortunately. We'd have 2 more wealth otherwise. Still, rolled well on refugee intake (range of 4-5 gained, but always -4 EE), so we will gain an LTE in the long run from it.
EE 14 -> 7​
Initial 14
+1 (BB Refund)
+2 (SB Refund)
+1 (TM Refund)
+2 (PA Refund)
+2 (Refugees Out)
+1 (Econ Overflow Refund)
-12 (Expand Econ)
-4 (Refugees In)
Total: 7
Went from 38 LTE to 34, activating most of our cities (all but lower valleyhome), but once refugees come in, we'll be at 39 LTE if nothing else reduces or increases it.
Martial 7 {35} -> 11 {34}​
Initial: 7
+2 (Blackbirds)
+2 (Spiritbonded)
Subtotal: 11 {11}
+{2} (Yeomen Ability)
+{9} (Swords and Ploughshares)
+{5} (Blood Rain Banner)
+{7} (Red Banner)
Martial's getting high enough that Dragon Banner company got automatically shifted back off of main army support.
Total: 11 {34}
Light Cav 3 -> 4​
Initial 3
+1 (More Spiritbonded)
Total: 4
Wealth 14 -> 7 (+1)​
Initial: 14
-1 (Blackbirds)
-5 (Spiritbonded)
-2 (Trade Mission)
Subtotal: 6
+1 (Overflow from Econ)
Subtotal: 7
+(+1) (Trade Mission)
Total: 7 (+1)
Average roll on trade mission (range of 0-2), so overall trade mission was -2 wealth, -1 econ, for a gain of +2 dip, +1 wealth (and refund of 1 EE). Not the best, not the worst. Still, especially with the upcoming wealth cost doubling, sucks that we dont have more. Refugees flowing into Storm Ymaryn cost 2 wealth in overflow, while the extra palace annex action cost 4 wealth in overflow, since everything else in the overflow chart but wealth and martial is full already.
Luckily, our wealth income is back up and running, between valleyhome reactivating (+2 wealth/turn), amber road being active again (+0.5), and our gains in luxury trade power (+1). Of course, with the vote choice we're picking now, we can expect to have our wealth expenses double, so actually expect a gain of +2, not +9 :/

Cultural
Culture 27/27 [+7]
Mysticism 27/27 (+3) [+3]
Tech 27/27 (+2) [+1-1]
Prestige 101
<Note: In case AN doesn't fix it before i post this, the civ sheet incorrectly lists the totals as +2 and +6 still, instead of as +3 and +2>
Culture 27 -> 27​
Initial: 27
-2 (Palace Annex)
+1 (Blackbird)
+1 (Spiritbonded)
Subtotal: 27
+1 (Overflow from Mysticism)
-1 (Overflow to Diplo)
Total: 27
Mysticism 27 (+2) -> 27 (+3)​
Initial: 27 (+2)
-1 (Blackbirds)
-2 (Spiritbonded)
+2 (Pending)
Subtotal: 26
+2 (Overflow from Tech)
-1 (Overflow to Culture)
Subtotal: 27
+(+1) (Blackbirds Refund)
+(+2) (Spiritbonded Refund)
Total: 27 (+3)
Tech 27 (+6) -> 27 (+2)​
Initial: 27 (+6)
+6 (Pending)
-4 (Expand Econ)
Subtotal: 29
-2 (Overflow to Mysticism)
Subtotal: 27
+(+2) (Expand Econ Refunds)
Total: 27 (+2)
Would be really nice to get that extra tech refund, since its basically all that keeps our tech score up :/
Prestige 99 -> 101​
Initial: 99
+2 (Retroactive Gov Palace Prestige)
Total: 101
Woo, finally broke 100! =D To clarify, with the extra grand hall annexes, we got two bonuses, one of which made governor's palaces give +1 prestige, like how having great hall x2 gave +1 prestige for the capital palace (more on that later in this section).

Stability
Stability 2/4 (hopeful)
Legitimacy 3/4 (regular max)
Stability 3 -> 2​
3 - 1 (Tear out purists) - 0 ([0-1] Refugee Intake) = 2
Well, at least we rolled well on the stab hit for a lv 2 refugee wave :)
Legitimacy 4 -> 3​
4 - 1 (Tear out purists) = 3
And so once more the urban poors ability proves amazing, in that we can take a legitimacy hit without needing to recover it right away, and have more room to proclaim glory for stab if we so choose!

Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 7 {9}
Centralization 7 -> 5​
7 - 2 (Personal Stewards) = 5
Burning through our cent to power our actions. Should be safe for another turn or so, and lowering cent is good (now have a limit of 8 iirc), but we'll have to start boosting it at some point soon
RA 8 {10} -> 7 {9}​
8 - 1 (Tear out purists) = 7 + {2} (Priests Faction Ability) = 7 {9}
Also getting ourselves some extra leeway on RA tolerance while still keeping a powerful priesthood for their benefits, thankfully

Horseman's plague is finally fully gone! =D Brings us back 3 diplo income and 3.75 wealth income just in time for extra wealth costs :)

undefined
Most of the changes are just updates for trelli dying and khemetri being in a bit of a limbo state and the SY taking over metal workers and the like. Actual Meaningful changes:
-Harmurri are italic/threatening dominance in common textiles with the khem (previously dominating) potentially out of the way
-Competing -> leading in fine pottery for us, +0.5 wealth a turn =D
-However, Harmurri are threatening that leading position
-Forhuch are threatening our gem dominance, while storm ymaryn are producing at least some gems
-Significant -> Dominating in Poppies for us, +0.5 wealth a turn and no competitors other than currently crossed out khemetri =D
-Forhuch are threatening our oldest dominance (salt) thanks to their access to the salt sea D=
-With the trelli and their italics gone, our wine dominance is more secure, though Forhuch, SY, and Harmurri all have some production
-Storm Ymaryn are threatening to dominate the bronze trade, while Forhuch join in that trade.
-Storm Ymaryn are slave traders, not just importers like the ST were.
-SY and HK are tin traders, not just importers now. Tin Tribes threaten to dominate the tin trade
-SY and Forhuch are both producing iron, though no one can threaten our domination there yet

Western Wall (Colony) - Expands to produce new provinces and find new resources, and can take be brought into wars to the north and west (L: 3/5, D: 1/5)
Greenshore Colony (Colony) - Settles the territory on the west coast of the sea (L: 3/5, D: 2/5)
Tinriver Colony (Colony) - Settles the territory on the south-west coast of the sea (L: 3/5, D: 2/5)
Loyalty for Greenshore and Tinriver went up by 1, so the megaproject choice gave us the loyalty we most wanted :)

Red Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 3/5, E: 7/10)
Dragon Banner (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 4/5, E: 8/10)
Blood Rain Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 3/5, E: 5/10)
Unfortunately, either it didn't apply to the mercs or they all rolled no bonus :/

Amber Road (Trading Post) [Mature] - Increases trade power for all Far Northern Tribe products, provides a market for an extra saltern (L: 5/5, D: 2/4)
Amber road is finally mature, giving us +1 diplo/turn :)

Four Horsemen Survivor: +1 Prestige/turn whenever facing at least two Horsemen of the Apocalypse at the same time
City on the Hill: You always have a successor culture that inherits some of what you were, even if they were your killers
New legacies! The first for the horseman's plague finally being done, and us surviving it so well (thunder speakers aside :V), the second for hitting 100 prestige :)
So being any two of at War, dealing with Pestilence/plague, dealing with Famine, or...Death? ...Not actually sure what would count as a separate instance of death? will give us +1 prestige a turn, which is...kind of weak honestly? Still, a nice bonus i suppose, and with luck we can upgrade it at some point :p
City on the hill is interesting, though hopefully wont need to be tested :p

Capital Palace
A grand center of government, the palace seats the king and all the necessary organs of governance, as well as being aesthetically attractive and imposing, so as to show off the wealth and power of the People. Required capstone project to move beyond Bronze Age models. Grants access to the Governor's Palace extended project.
Annexes (15/17):
  • Grand Hall x5 (+1 Diplo/turn, Governor's Palaces give +1 Prestige when built, +1 Sec action)
  • Shrine x2
  • Library x2 (+1 National Library count)
  • Storehouse x2 (-1 Temp Econ damage for all palaces)
  • Garden
  • Arsenal x3 (+1 Safe Martial, +1 Tech/turn)
Synergies: +1 EE before Valleyhome loses TC status, +1 Tech Refund/2 palaces, palaces grant +1 RA tolerance each

Capital palace section reordered on my suggestion, and highlights the bonus we got in exchange for having 1 less secondary action than we were supposed to have this last turn. We got 2 grand halls for the price of one, bringing us to 5, only 1 away from a government upgrade :)
So new bonuses are "Governor's Palaces give +1 Prestige when built" and "+1 Sec action", presumably for x4 and x5 respectively. That suggests that @veekie 's theory about GPs giving benefits based on having half the main palaces annex count (rather than -1 as he'd originally suggested) is correct, since we got +1 prestige for having 2 annexes in the capital. That also suggests that at Great/Grand hall 6, we'll get +1 diplo per palace, or maybe (like with the tech upgrade) +1 per two palaces. Probably per palace, since stat drips aren't as powerful as refunds.
Also note that unlike what we'd thought, the RA tolerance boost wasn't just for shrines, it was...presumably shrine + library? Likwise, the City Attraction boost was a synergy, likely Garden + hall or Garden + storehouse.
"So, as you can see, this is where the gods cut the rock for the Great River to pass through here. It is the hardest rock in the valley system, which makes it a pain to work with, but also the best place to drive our anchors, and one of the narrowest points in the entire region. The plan currently has us building a temporary dam just upstream to divert at least some of the water into one of the side canyons. That region is a bit calmer but the river is wider and the bed is made from gravel and mud rather than solid rock, so it won't hold in the long run once we get a reservoir built up behind it. Anyway, the hard rock here means that once we cut anchor points in, the anchors will fail before the rock. Now, there's a bunch of things that can fail other than the anchors, but those will be fairly significant in terms of overall strength. Still, the stronger we can make the pilings and anchors, the better," the Chief of Dam Construction explained to the king as part of the inspection tour.
Interesting details on how the dam will be made, and how much the people know about surveying and the like...also:
Chief of Dam Construction
I can't tell whether this is a temporary/new post just for this construction, or if we have made much much smaller dams on minor rivers before, or if there's just always such a chief because every king thinks the dam will happen any year now :V

Astutely seeing where this was going, the king asked, "You want a budget increase."
I'm sure the king has seen this happen all the time with projects :p

Nodding, the Chief said, "We can totally do this with just the resources already planned, but we can make it bigger and stronger with more cement and iron. The reservoir already planned will be big, but with a taller dam and some side dams to keep a few of the less desirable canyons from flooding, we can get the water to spill into this one canyon where we could really easily put a couple dozen mills with easy access to existing roads and the planned canal. If anyone ever wants to make it bigger, the only way to do that would be to build a whole new dam, so if we can build bigger and higher and stronger that would be saving our descendants a lot of hassle."
Modify megaproject?
[] [Dam] Keep as is
[] [Dam] Use stronger materials, keep as is (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs)
[] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
Reasonable logic. Sounds like each step in turn is "bonus to dam failure rolls", "bonus to dam failure rolls AND to benefit of dam", "bonus to dam failure rolls, benefit, AND a shitton of prestige, maybe counts as a wonder" Interesting to note that even the first option doubles the cost of the remaining actions in terms of stats (though only 50% if you ignore tech because of refund), and with the slavery choice the wealth costs will be doubled. So the most impressive dam would be -2 econ, -4 wealth, -2 tech each action, for 5-7 more progress. Still, last i checked, the "bigger but more useful" proposal is winning, so it'll be 2 econ, 2 wealth, 1 tech each action, for 4-6 more progress, and the tech will be fully refunded.

The king then sighed. Administratively things were going well - someone had misallocated funds for the palace expansion but when it had been caught a number of patricians had practically tripped over themselves to correct the issue with their own funds and contacts, resulting in an even bigger expansion than planned, so there was now in fact a second hall that was where the movers and shakers of the kingdom could gather to hash out their issues with each other before going straight for the king's hall, where important things still happened but it was harder to talk openly without causing issue. This also opened up the lower classes in Valleyhome to come in and talk more, also freeing up valuable time. It was all very nice, and highlighted all the other problems.
Narrative for the extra 2-for-one expansion :) Interesting directions for things to go. Greater involvement of patricians and ability to coordinate in a central location was expected, but i didn't expect a second smaller hall or for better lower class involvement. The smaller hall is likely to turn into the parliament/senate/noble council/whatever hall during the government upgrade, formalizing the "patricians decide things here before going to the king" practice. Hopefully that will also free up the main hall more to be used for lower classes to petition the king and/or the king's assistants.

Like the Highlanders, who had responded to the inquiries as to what they were doing as 'Taking the lowlands'. While they hadn't made any direct threats to the People yet, it was pretty obvious that they were going to attack the Harmurri once they finished off the minor tribes, and then the People would have to either intervene or let the Harmurri fight it out. If the Highlanders won then they would probably turn their eyes towards the People, and if the Harmurri won they would undoubtedly be pissed at being abandoned by people they thought had their backs. Either way, inaction was ill-advised, so war was probably inevitable. Whether waiting was advisable was... questionable... but it was the decision that had been made.
Fucking Highlanders!!! Yeah, we at least need to send mercs to the Harmurri without cost, like we did with the HK before.

Far worse though was the results of confronting the puritans over the behaviour that had required the execution and exile of so many troublemakers among them and attempting to pull out the philosophy had run into a major issue: the half-exiles. Or, more accurately, the prohibitions against slavery.
And here comes the "didn't see coming but shit this is obvious in retrospect"

In the debates more than a few of the orthodox priests had been put on the back foot by being called out for being hypocrites, how they proclaimed all sorts of actions that the puritans decried as impure were acceptable, but that the People weren't to participate in the enslavement or shipment of slaves because it spread spiritual taint.
Basically "So its fine for our neighbors to not even believe in the very spirits of the earth, one of the fundamental underpinnings of the faith of the People, but keeping slaves or even being middlemen in their sale spreads too much of the slaves taint to us?". They kind of do have a point, really :p

While it was obvious that the line of argument had been intended to silence their critics over the puritanical philosophies, it had instead sparked off a new conversation. Given all the things that the priests said were tolerable to the spirits, was slavery really that bad? History showed that the war over slavery in the Freehills with the Trelli had generally gone poorly, so if the gods truly were with them on the issue would they not have given the People greater success?
...again, they have a point from their perspective...

The king himself wasn't entirely sure, but it was definitely causing a schism within the priests, guilds, and patricians over what next. Some had actually been swayed over to some degree of the puritan point of view, while others were pretty clearly seeing piles of gold and silver if they could sway the priests to conceding that maybe the gods didn't mind that much. Either way, something seemed likely to break in the near future.
The greedy assholes on the other hand, do not D=

How did the debates go?
[] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
Debates already been had, votes basically over, no discussion here other than to be thankful that we didn't get the original options AN was gonna give, which didn't have the third or fourth, and had the first two be worse :p

Also, pick four passive policies
[] [PP] Agriculture (+3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, -1 Tech/turn)
[] [PP] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[] [PP] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[] [PP] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[] [PP] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[] [PP] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[] [PP] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[] [PP] Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
[] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[] [PP] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[] [PP] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
Similarly, vote i think is over, and i haven't been following the debate between city support and skullduggery much anyway :p

AN: Please remember to stay civil and keep the salt levels down
<3

True Cities
[4/5 City Candidates, 3 Free Cities, 12 City Limit]
[Limit is (#Provinces + #LandedNonFreeCitySubordinates)/2]
[3 Non-Supported True Cites : -3 High Cent Tolerance]
[Cities activate when EE is at or below Threshold/2]​
-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market {x2}, Sig. Walls] (21 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls] (21 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (19 EE Threshold)
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (15 EE Threshold)

-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (9 EE Threshold)

-Valleyhome [Capital, Palace, Aqueduct, Baths, Market {x2}, Sig. Walls] (21 EE Threshold)
[20 (Base) + 7 (Infrastructure) - 6 (No Block Housing) = 21]

-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (21 EE Threshold)
[21 (Inherit) - 4 (Penalty) + 4 (Infrastructure) = 21]

-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (19 EE Threshold)
[21 (Inherit) - 5 (Penalty) + 3 (Infrastructure) = 19]

-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (15 EE Threshold)
[19 (Inherit) - 6 (Penalty) + 2 (Infrastructure) = 15]

-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (9 EE Threshold)
[15 (Inherit) - 7 (Penalty) + 1 (Infrastructure) = 9]

-Redshore [Governor's Palace, Aqueduct x2, Baths, Market x2 {x3}, Ironworks x2, Sig. Walls] [Block Housing] <Level 2 City> {Level 2 Baths 4/6 Progress}
-Redhills [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] {Colossal Walls 1/9 Progress}
-Valleyguard [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls] {Colossal Walls 1/9 Progress}


-Greenshore - Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore - Unknown City [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall - Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Heaven's Hawk - Phygriftwyn [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)


Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]​
-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City)
-Amber Road (Temple) (In Subordinate)

Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:​
-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Horse Valley in Stonepen (Lv 1 + Lv 1 Observatory)
-Amber Road (Lv 1) (Subordinate)

Salt/Gold Production
[Total Effect: +3.5 Wealth/turn]​
-Southshore (Lv 1 Saltern) [+0.5]
-Northshore (Lv 1 Saltern) [+0.5]
-Hatvalley (Gold Mine) [+0.5]

-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway) [+0.5]
-Heaven's Hawk (Gold Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway) [+0.5]

-Trade Post (Amber Road) (Support) [+0.5]
-Grand Docks (Redshore) (Support) [+0.5]


Ironworks
[Total Level Count: 3]
[Effect on Expand Econ Secondary: +2 Econ, -2 EE, -2 Tech]
[Effect on City Support/Agriculture Passive Policies: +2 Econ, -2 EE, -1 Tech]​
-Redhills (Megaproject) [Functions as Lv 1 for total Ironwork level count]
-Redshore (Lv 2)

Governor's Palace:
[All numbers are totals]
[-1 Min Cent Tolerance, -2 Max Cent Tolerance, +0 True City Admin Support]
[+2 Max Interconnectivity, +2 Temp Econ Damage Resistance]
[+2 Max Safe Martial, +2 RA Tolerance]
[+1.5 Tech Refund, including main Palace]​
-Blackmouth
-Sacred Shore

-Western Wall (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore (In Subordinate) [In Progress 6/9]


Markets:
[{Current} Total: {5} 5 Wealth/Turn, {0.75} 0.75 Culture/Turn]​
-Redshore (Level 2, 3 Wealth/Turn, 0.75 Culture/Turn) <Active>
-Valleyhome (Level 1, 2 Wealth/Turn) <Active>

Colossal Walls:​
-{Redhills 1/9 Progress}
-{Valleyguard 1/9 Progress}

Interconnectivity (21/55)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to half of max IC value (27/55), any past that will be banked]
[+7 Max Centralization Tolerance (IC/3, round down). 0 Banked Centralization]
[Max IC Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]​

Provinces
[17 Full Provinces - 3 Extra Sec King Actions, 6 Sec Province Actions, 2 Main + 1 Sec Guild Actions]
[Next Action increases: +1 Sec Guild Action at 18 Provinces | +1 Sec Province Action at 19 Provinces | No Gain at 20 Provinces]
[New King Actions at every (9+4n) Province]
[New Province Actions at every (11+4n) Province]
[New Guild Actions at every (3n) Province]

[In Progress Provinces]​
-Northern Blackriver [2/6]

[Subordinate Provinces]
<Just ignore this section for now, it's out of date, was only ever my (Abby Normal) guesses, and with the plague and unknown subordinate status, is likely even more wrong than I know>​
-Western Wall - 2-3? Provinces (0? Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3-4? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March]
-Txolla - 3-4? Provinces (2? Ready to Integrate)
-Tinriver - 2-3? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Thunder Horse - 3-4? Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]

Stat Caps
[Base Cap - 27]
[Base is 10 + #Provinces]

[Wealth Cap - 25]​
-Base Value (+10)
-17 Provinces (+17)
-5 Guild Faction Power (+2.5)
-9 RA Mylathadysm (-4.5)

[Safe Martial Limit - 37 {39}]
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]​
-Base Value (+10)
-17 Provinces (+17)
-2 Governor's Palaces (+2)
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+2}

Centralization Tolerances:
[Note: Being at a tolerance cap triggers penalties]
[Low Tolerance: - 2]​
-Government Base "Neutral" (0)
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-1) [-0.5 per GP]
[High Tolerance: 8]​
-Government Base "High" (7)
-21 Interconnectivity (+7) [+1 per 3 IC]
-Legacies (+2)
-17 Provinces (-3) [-1 per 2 provinces over 12]
-3 Unsupported True Cities (-3) [-1 per Unsupported City. Free Cities and Capital are supported. Governor's Palaces can support 1 city per 3 GPs.]
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2) [-1 per GP]

Refunds
[All Refunds are limited on a per action basis]

[Econ Refund - 8]
[Refunds spent Econ as EE. Gained from True/Free Cities]​
-4 Level 1 True Cities (+4)
-0 Level 2 True Cities (+0)
-2 Level 1 Free Cities (+2)
-1 Level 2 Free City (+2)
[Tech - 1.5 {1}]
[Refunds spent Tech at end of turn. Gained from Arsenal annexes and GPs]​
-Capital Palace (+0.5)
-2 Governor's Palaces (+1)
{Rounds Down}

[Mysticism - 3]
[Refunds spent Mysticism at end of turn. Gained from Libraries]​
-Library Megaproject (+1)
-4 Libraries (+2)


Miscellaneous​
-2 Secondary Gymnasium: +4 to Games Rolls, +2 Safe Non-Primary Martial
-Annex Limit: 13/17 [2 (Base) + 8.5 {8} (#Provinces/2) + 7 (#LandedNonFCSubordinates)]
-Current Reformers Legacy Strength: 1/4 Refund
-Temp Econ Damage Resistance: 9.11 {9} [-1 (Gov Base) + 1.66 (Gov + 5 Cent) + 1 (Storehouse Annex) + 2 (2 Governor's Palaces) + 1 (Iron Age Census) + 4.5 (Mylathadysm + 9 RA)]
-RA Tolerance: 12 as of <Iron Age Eye of the Storm>

-Updated true city counts
-Updated markets, cent tolerance, econ refund for true city activation
-Updated TED Resistance and wealth cap for RA
-Wealth cap should be 25, not 24
-Mysticism and Tech should be 27 (+3) and 27 (+2); you left the values from last turn.
-The civ sheet uses "Grand Hall", while the action list uses "Great Hall". Which should be the term used?
-1 Last update the lv 3 market base cost was 9. Is it intentional that level 3 temples are 12 cost, or should those be 9 as well?

-2 What counts as "Death" for the purposes of the horsemen legacy?

-3 Is the Chief of Dam Construction a temporary/new position, or have the People built much much smaller dams before?

-4 What does our civ looks like in terms of religious centers and the like? Like...is there still a big divide between the sacred forest and dragon's graveyard temples? What about the other temples/holy sites? Is sacred forest still the dominant "power" in that regard? How entrenched is mylathadism?

-5 Do our vassals benefit from steelblooded? I assume they wouldn't get the ironworks bonuses, but not sure on the legacies...

-6 How unique is stuff like the Chamber of the Survey from last update? Is that another "The People are weird" thing, or is it relatively normal? Either way, are there any (other) uniquely Ymaryn sections of the palace/government?

(I feel like i've forgotten something...i think thats just that i didn't do the action list comparisons, since i'm saving that for next update to save time so i can go over that list for errors for AN before next update, but if i missed anything let me know :p)
 
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And if they don't and just start forting the hell up on the minors they did take and wait until something inevitably happens to us before making their next move, either attacking us or the Harm, we'll be too distracted to safely deal with them.

Are they being stupid now? Yes.

Will they continue being stupid? That remains to be seen. Giving your opponent time to realize and start fixing their mistake is generally a bad plan.
Then they give us a turn to prepare, while they're in the much less defensible lowlands and we come rolling in next turn. Assuming they even do this (since they seem so reasonable in their diplomacy right now) we benefit from this more than they do. It's a no win situation for them.

Seriously, how could delaying war be anything but a positive for us in this situation, unless our goal is war with the HK? While it is theoretically possible that something more will come up, the most likely situation is that this turn is the most dangerous and frantic for us.


To go back to this plan of yours though, I forgot to mention something. Your overflow plan relies upon econ overflowing into wealth, so any econ spent directly reduces it. This makes Docks completely resource neutral and provides zero benefit for our current problems. How can boat innovation rolls instead of stability and martial be justifiable in any way right now? It makes even less sense if you're voting for war immediately, since martial raised means more war missions.
 
Do we have the obligation to intervene in foreign affairs if one of the state is a Game attendee and do we want to have such obligation? The Game's reputation was damaged when we attacked Trelli over that slave issue which caused KH to pull out and support Trelli, remember? Sure we should make sure HK doesn't have opportunity to hit us but we might use risky reason, such as they want the entire Lowland thus planning to attack Texolla which count as diplomatic insult.

It's not so much an obligation as it is a combination of good international behaviour (we want the Harm or Freehills to bail us out if shit hits the fan), punching the HK in the dick, an attempt to develop international relations a bit more and thus permit more complex interactions, punching the HK in the dick, angling to improve relations to eventually get ocean access from the Harm and neuter the HK's ability to be a nuisance.

Also, we get to punch the HK in the dick, which I think is fairly important.


Jokes aside, I don't intent a full conquest. If we just carve off their lowland holdings I'll be happy.

Given our high Diplomacy and at least existant Intrigue, I hope we can try to prop up some heir of the deposed King and take some sort of control of them that way.


@Academia Nut

Do the Ymaryn have any concept of doing something like backing a heir to the throne to cause a split in enemy forces and then using the new Kings shaky grip on power to vassalize the target country?

Because I imagine the Patricians are just about fed up with the Highlanders given the repeated opportunistic attacks, intrigue bullshit, monotheists, not having the good grace to keep the bloody government when they were trying to mend bridges after long last and now attacking our pals.
 
The Traders' next quest is explicitly going to be a spite quest since we're voting to reform the Half-Exiles. It's probably going to have a vicious punishment and be all but impossible to complete. There's zero reason to waste our free negation now when we could put off the Traders for a turn, complete their quest and get the nice reward, and then negate the incoming spite quest.
Sorry, I've been busy trying to deal with arguments where people try to level as many accusations as possible as opposed to trying to be logical about what they pick and choose what they do.

*Looks at stats to see if it's possible.*

I suppose we could do it, we'd be at lower wealth, though we could make due with at least one textiles vote (I'm not really in support of that). It's possible and a valid point that I have no objection to.

My plan was mostly put together to point out that we really don't have to monofocus on wealth generation in order to get tons of wealth. My opposition seems to have predetermined that to not be the case to the point where they refuse anything that might even remotely knock down wealth generation a bit, even if we can pathetically easily hit the cap.
 
Personally, I think we should consider activating the Mass Levy. Flood the HK with troops to ensure we can push this to an end within the first turn of war.
 
The Traders' next quest is explicitly going to be a spite quest since we're voting to reform the Half-Exiles. It's probably going to have a vicious punishment and be all but impossible to complete. There's zero reason to waste our free negation now when we could put off the Traders for a turn, complete their quest and get the nice reward, and then negate the incoming spite quest.
We don't have a free Trader negation. We either need to succefully complete one more quest or take one support faction action to gain another free negation.

The options right now are to take a support faction action next turn and ensure that we have at least 11 wealth at the start of the turn following it with a warships action, or let the warships mission fail next turn and follow it with a support action.

Either will let us ignore their spite quest.
 
Sorry, I've been busy trying to deal with arguments where people try to level as many accusations as possible as opposed to trying to be logical about what they pick and choose what they do.

My plan was mostly put together to point out that we really don't have to monofocus on wealth generation in order to get tons of wealth. My opposition seems to have predetermined that to not be the case to the point where they refuse anything that might even remotely knock down wealth generation a bit, even if we can pathetically easily hit the cap.

Critiquing an action plan is entirely logical, and your plan dedicates the same amount of actions to wealth generation. It just ends up with less because you're avoiding cash crops and using overflow instead, while pursuing innovation rolls instead of things like stability, martial or completing quests. There are plenty of reasons to be against this, and it has little to do with simply wanting the most wealth possible.
 
Personally, I think we should consider activating the Mass Levy. Flood the HK with troops to ensure we can push this to an end within the first turn of war.
I'm not sure how much the Mass Levy will actually help.

Our primary combat arm is going to be our cavalry, who either will be operating separate from the levies anyway, or are going to be giving up their major advantage to escort slow-moving levies everywhere.
 
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