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Paths of Civilization

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pbluekan said:
Ok, sure, but what's the point of growing vast amounts of cotton when we can grow saffron which is often worth its weight in gold? Or even opium if you don't mind the effects. Cotton never really gets there, even with the cotton gin.

In any case, eschewing food production (we were given a warning) or production of more valuable crops just to spur the possible invention of a cotton gin is ridiculous. This is likely to cause more problems than not, especially as we recover from the plague.

Food and spices should be the name of the game. We can outcompete even the saffron isles for spices because of our agricultural primacy. If you want us to be a big(er) name on the Silk Road, spices is going to be the name of the game.
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I argued that Cotton is not the devil. If you look a few posts before, I specifically argued that we should take every action that increases labor demand, including Expand Economy. And spices.

As for the Silk road, I'm not too scared about it. We are broadly speaking in the middle of it. Or middle-ish. Certainly not at the end.

As such, the trade will pass through our lands, and with it the Wealth. We aren't the endpoint like Europe was. As such, Silk moves through our territory (unless they want to brave the steppes...) and silver moves back through our territory and economy. In the meantime, we can export everything else we produce in both directions. Kinda like Trelli.

We are likely to see some drain, but remember that our Patricians aren't that wealthy on an individual basis compared to Rome. I don't think they can afford to lose that much silver on fancy clothing.

Additionally, the reduced distance means we don't have quite that high a price as the end of the route faces. There are a few mark-ups all along the way, but we aren't quite at the end of it.
 
DocMatoi said:
doesn't it give Tech, which we are short of?
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Plant Hemp [Guild] - This sturdy plant has been planted in limited quantities before, but you now have cultivars that can take well to being planted in large areas and could use it for
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Tech, +1 Mysticism, +1 Diplo if have boats, +1 Econ next turn
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +2 Tech, +1 Mysticism, +2 Diplo if have boats, +1 Econ next turn, other effects

So basically Tech and Diplo. We're currently at 24/27 Tech, and that situation will only improve as we get more tech refunds online with our Governor's Palaces. Diplo is sort of useful in that it overflows into wealth eventually after the bottom 3, but is not something we're hurting on otherwise.

What we need at the moment is wealth, and lots of it, thus cotton or poppies. This will get better as we get up marketplaces, but we also need to spend a bunch of wealth getting our navy and martial up, so demand is high.
 
pbluekan said:
Ok, sure, but what's the point of growing vast amounts of cotton when we can grow saffron which is often worth its weight in gold? Or even opium if you don't mind the effects. Cotton never really gets there, even with the cotton gin.

In any case, eschewing food production (we were given a warning) or production of more valuable crops just to spur the possible invention of a cotton gin is ridiculous. This is likely to cause more problems than not, especially as we recover from the plague.

Food and spices should be the name of the game. We can outcompete even the saffron isles for spices because of our agricultural primacy. If you want us to be a big(er) name on the Silk Road, spices is going to be the name of the game.
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We don't have saffron yet. If we can get it and other spices it would be worth attempting to grow them, assuming our climate is capable of such. Saffron is rather lighter than cotton.

Actual food production for local purposes is obviously essential. Actual food production for export is pointless, unless we acquire rare fruit trees or the like.
8bitBob said:
Hemp is not similar quality at all, and was often discolored and rough without extensive chemical treatment, and growing any cash crop dents our food production. Hemp is a good option for discovering the tech, but we currently have little need of the stats it gives. Given the choice between Poppies and Cotton, I'd take Cotton every time if given the option because its value comes from its usefulness, rather than it's desirability. Unfortunately, poppies is winning due to continued econ problems from that minor little civilization ending plague.
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Hemp is useful from a narrative standpoint for the maintenance of a large ship fleet. And, frankly, hemp is a more durable cloth with a better ecological standard.
Poppies are useful for medical purposes and, due to their current protected status, are a market more difficult to enter than textiles.
I'd probably pick cotton above more poppies, but it's not a cure-all.

DakkaMania said:
As for the Silk road, I'm not too scared about it. We are broadly speaking in the middle of it. Or middle-ish. Certainly not at the end.
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China -> East Asia -> India -> Iran -> Us -> Eastern Europe -> Western Europe
Yeah, endish middle.

If we can conquer the Harmurri and make a trade fleet in that area we can be in the middle of the tropical spice trade and perhaps cut ourselves to being the actual middle of the silk trade. Piracy will be a risk, however.
 
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Umi-san said:
We don't have saffron yet. If we can get it and other spices it would be worth attempting to grow them, assuming our climate is capable of such. Saffron is rather lighter than cotton.

Actual food production for local purposes is obviously essential. Actual food production for export is pointless, unless we acquire rare fruit trees or the like.

Hemp is useful from a narrative standpoint for the maintenance of a large ship fleet. And, frankly, hemp is a more durable cloth with a better ecological standard.
Poppies are useful for medical purposes and due to their currently less wide-spread nature, are a market more difficult to enter than textiles.
I'd probably pick cotton above more poppies, but it's not a cure-all.


China -> East Asia -> India -> Iran -> Us -> Eastern Europe -> Western Europe
Yeah, endish middle.

If we can conquer the Harmurri and make a trade fleet in that area we can be in the middle of the tropical spice trade and perhaps cut ourselves to being the actual middle of the silk trade. Piracy will be a risk, however.
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If we invest enough in hemp, we can make a killing supplying them with jolly roger flags. :V

But no, conquest is really not required. I prefer diplomacy. Once we got the lowlands, our Patrician population itself will be gargantuan. And we can copy the Khemetri strategy of just marrying our nobility off to everywhere.

And coupled with cultural influence and sheer economic might we can draw in our neighbours without wasteful wars. Especially as we aren't built for it and don't have a colossal tech advantage anymore. We now have to content with peers.

Besides, that one Chief way back in the beginning was right: "Why ask for one thing when you can ask for friendship and have all the things?"

And we do have good relations with the Harmurri already. The games, the intervention, the food gift etc.

Basically, we send them Trade Missions ad nauseum until they cave in. It's not like membership in the Ymaryn Empire is a one way street. They gain a lot as well.

The problem will be that they are aware of our influence according to AN and take steps to curb it.


But that is a very long term goal and only after we fully assimilated the Lowlands.
 
@DakkaMania My usage of "conquer" is force-neutral. :p

Also, I don't necessarily think it needs to wait until we've conquered the lowlands; not all of our vassals need to be touching us, it appears.

Edit: If we ever do assimilate all the lowlands our civilization will be so weirdly shaped.
Like, a giant area to the south-east, a giant area to the north-west, and our capitol is just this place sitting in some random mountains in an abnormal center of power. We'll be completely reliant on our canals for decent connectivity.
 
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I only recently discovered this quest (and I have to say that it is quite amusing to see in what direction those early "hippies" developed) and don't really have the time/energy to actively participate in this quest or follow most of the discussions so I hope you forgive me for asking this possibly "stupid" question but I wondered if there were any plans to build the "Great Library" in the near/mid future. It seemed to me like this was something you guys worked towards (and it seems to fit narratively) but along the way it seems to have fallen by the wayside and I wondered if somebody could explain that to me, if it wasn't too much of a bother.
 
Erandil said:
I only recently discovered this quest (and I have to say that it is quite amusing to see in what direction those early "hippies" developed) and don't really have the time/energy to actively participate in this quest or follow most of the discussions so I hope you forgive me for asking this possibly "stupid" question but I wondered if there were any plans to build the "Great Library" in the near/mid future. It seemed to me like this was something you guys worked towards (and it seems to fit narratively) but along the way it seems to have fallen by the wayside and I wondered if somebody could explain that to me, if it wasn't too much of a bother.
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The Great Library is fairly recent and currently not urgent.

Meanwhile, the Dam has waited 2000 years to be built, greatly improves our access to the Lowlands and is relatively urgent.
 
Erandil said:
I only recently discovered this quest (and I have to say that it is quite amusing to see in what direction those early "hippies" developed) and don't really have the time/energy to actively participate in this quest or follow most of the discussions so I hope you forgive me for asking this possibly "stupid" question but I wondered if there were any plans to build the "Great Library" in the near/mid future. It seemed to me like this was something you guys worked towards (and it seems to fit narratively) but along the way it seems to have fallen by the wayside and I wondered if somebody could explain that to me, if it wasn't too much of a bother.
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plz stop trying to take Dam-kun and Canal-nee away from me
 
Erandil said:
I only recently discovered this quest (and I have to say that it is quite amusing to see in what direction those early "hippies" developed) and don't really have the time/energy to actively participate in this quest or follow most of the discussions so I hope you forgive me for asking this possibly "stupid" question but I wondered if there were any plans to build the "Great Library" in the near/mid future. It seemed to me like this was something you guys worked towards (and it seems to fit narratively) but along the way it seems to have fallen by the wayside and I wondered if somebody could explain that to me, if it wasn't too much of a bother.
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Most of the big megaprojects are waiting on a Golden Age in the hopes that we'll get the ability to progress them on a one action/turn basis without taking up other actions. We have so many other priorities that it's gotten increasingly difficult to be the wonder specialists we once were.
 
Erandil said:
I only recently discovered this quest (and I have to say that it is quite amusing to see in what direction those early "hippies" developed) and don't really have the time/energy to actively participate in this quest or follow most of the discussions so I hope you forgive me for asking this possibly "stupid" question but I wondered if there were any plans to build the "Great Library" in the near/mid future. It seemed to me like this was something you guys worked towards (and it seems to fit narratively) but along the way it seems to have fallen by the wayside and I wondered if somebody could explain that to me, if it wasn't too much of a bother.
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It was something people talked about, but for the most part it was an idle fantasy. The big thing that we wanted was the Academy and we got that as a reward for fulfilling a Guild Faction Quest a few turns ago. The Academy removed the over-stressed penalty for Philosopher Kings, one of our most important social values, since it was too developed for the educational infrastructure that we had established. The Academy also makes our non-Hero kings ridiculously skilled for the era - Good in everything except Mysticism. (The scale is Awful - Poor - Mediocre- Average - Good - Exceptional - Heroic - Genius, if I recall correctly. It's a massive buff to our administrative capacity, especially considering Heroic and Genius is fairly rare.)

Some of our other megaprojects are likely to be more useful than the Library, however. The Dam will likely give us a lot of arable land, something we're well poised to take advantage of due to our farming skill, and it will make a second megaproject - the Lowland Canal - possible. The Lowland canal will massively shorten the trip from our core to the eastern edge of our territory. Going over land takes a month or more. The canal would cut them time massively. It would also let us move bulk food from the lowlands into the core to feed our ever hungry cities and allow us to more easily move troops east to defend it if needed.

It will also massively boost trade with the new Fouchet country that settled in on our eastern border. That's critical not only for wealth, but also to appease them so they decide it's easier to trade with us instead of raiding. It looks like they have a set up similar in style to the Silk Road and we would benefit a lot from making that trade easier. We can become one of the intermediaries instead of people trying to brave the steppes north of us.

Plus, the Library is nice, but we're currently recovering from a plague and our western vassals are wondering if they really need us or if they should transfer their loyalty to a breakaway state in the west. Things aren't on fire, but they're smoldering so we need to be careful to put it out.
 
Been busy, can't get to all questions asked, will use the upcoming mid-turn to fix a bunch of the little issues that have cropped up. Will answer a few of the questions that I saw when I opened up my browser this afternoon.

Katsuragi said:
Will the games be automatically resuming as we make contact with peer powers or are we going to have to take an action to re-invite everyone?
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Yes.

pbluekan said:
hat disease is the Horseman's Plague? The closest I could think of was Pneumonic Plague (Yersinia pestis) but that doesn't quite fit the symptoms or transmission. TB as well, I suppose, but again, doesn't really fit the symptoms or apparent transmission. Hemoptysis isn't a terribly common thing for infectious disease.
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Nothing from our world.

It's a bacterial respiratory infection. Patient Zero was a charcoal worker with a compromised lung capacity that had several infections at once. Within the fluid slurry of his lungs there was a bunch of bacteria and viral species floating around amidst human cellular wreckage, and one in particular through a series of genetic uptakes and infections managed to pick up the ability to produce human corticosteroids as part of its toxin profile. Some of this new strain managed to get passed on before the first host died, and in one of the infected hosts the strain perfected its ability to produce human immunosuppressants. Free of interference from the host's immune system, this early strain was able to replicate with minimal immune system response. While bacterial load in the lungs, damage from cells soaking in corticosteroids, and secondary infections from the host being immune compromised killed the hosts, there was an extended period of high bacterial load to be hilariously infectious where there were few social ques to isolate the infectious host. The bacteria was generally able to dwell within any large mammal but it's corticosteroid tricks were of highest specificity to humans.

Fortunately, while there was a high lethality strain, a secondary strain that used more sophisticated signalling soon developed. Rather than simply shutting down all immune function, it was able to hide from immune response, and even sic the host's immune system on competitors - of which the high lethality strain rapidly became its biggest target. Because of the extreme measures the People took, the strains that were better at hiding were strongly favoured, which gave the slower reproducing and more subtle strain the competitive edge. Combined with a population that was building up resistance to the disease, the ecology of the two strains has reached a low-lethality equilibrium point. The lethal strain still exists, and the less lethal one occasionally mutates or gets into a host that can't handle it, but pandemic conditions are no longer favoured.

veekie said:
1) This covers Blackbirds, Carrion Eaters and Spiritbonded right?
1.1) How would the Cavalry stat increase in such a case? Or does the cost just rise to cover them all at higher action efficiency?
1.2) Is this along the route to update our holy orders to the Spiritbonded quality?
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Yes
1.1) They are all rolled together, so some Cavalry score will be generated as part of an overall more expensive action
1.2) Possibly

Also, if anyone has the current tally I will take it, otherwise I will spend some time consolidating the votes to work out what votes have won.
 
@Academia Nut did successfully resolving the enclaves issue and realizing we aren't that xenophobic have any effects on the con of purity?
 
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Edit:

[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Change Passive Policy (2x Forestry -> 2x Infrastructure)
[X] [Secondary] Expand Econ
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X] [Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinshore Colony
[X] [Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X] [Guild Main] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X] [Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Nov 4, 2017 at 1:37 PM, finished with 125806 posts and 64 votes.
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Academia Nut said:
Because of the extreme measures the People took, the strains that were better at hiding were strongly favoured, which gave the slower reproducing and more subtle strain the competitive edge.
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So wait are you saying our entire population is now carriers?
 
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Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 5010 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 125253-125756]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Main:
[1] Dam
Secondary:
[1] Expand Econ x2
[2] Influence Subordinate - Greenshore
[3] Grand Hall Annex
[4] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[5] Expand Econ
Guild:
[1] Plant Cotton
[2] Plant Poppies

Total No. of Voters: 3

Task: Main
[58][Main] Great Dam
[3][Main] Grand Hall Annex
[1][Main] Expand Econ
[1][Main] Build Roads
[1][Main] New Trails
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[46][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[40][Secondary] Expand Econ
[33][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[33][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall Expansion
[25][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[13][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[12][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[11][Secondary] Great Dam
[11][Secondary] Great Dam x3
[10][Secondary] Great Dam x4
[9][Secondary] Survey Lands
[7][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony x2
[6][Secondary] Build Roads
[4][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Greenshore
[4][Secondary] Great Hall Expansion x2
[4][Secondary] Distribute Land
[3][Secondary] Build Docks
[3][Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[3][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[3][Secondary] Trade Mission - Freehills
[3][Secondary] Trade Mission: Storm People
[1][Secondary] Change Policy-Trade
[1][Secondary] New Settlement - Internal reorg
[1][Secondary] Dam 4-6? action commitment, -2 Econ per action x5
[1][Secondary] Dam 4-6? action commitment, -2 Econ per action x6
[1][Secondary] Build Roads x2
[1][Secondary] Integrate Colony - Txolla
[1][Secondary] Triangle Canal 8-11? action commitment, -3 Econ and -1 Tech per action
[1][Secondary] Triangle Canal 8-11? action commitment, -3 Econ and -1 Tech per action x2
[1][Secondary] Build Watchtowers
[1][Secondary] More Blackbirds
[1][Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[1][Secondary] More Spiritbonded
[1][Secondary] Study Health
[1][Secondary] Expand Economy x2
[1][Secondary] Plant Cotton
[1][Secondary] Expand Vineyard
[1][Secondary] Black Soil
[1][Secondary] Black Soil x2
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild
[51][Guild] Plant Poppies
[25][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[15][Guild] Build Docks
[14][Guild] Plant Poppies x2
[4][Guild] [Secondary] Plant Cotton
[2][Guild] Plant Cotton
[2][Guild] Expand Vineyard
[1][Guild] Build Goldmine
[1][Guild] Build Warships
[1][Guild] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild sec
[5][Guild sec] Plant Cotton
[1][Guild sec] More Warships
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild Secondary
[45][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kick
[1][Kick] Dam
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Guild Main
[1][Guild Main] Plant Cotton
[1][Guild Main] Build Docks x2
Total No. of Voters: 64


Pretty sure this is properly consolidated @Academia Nut.

Also a question, does the 29 {36}/34 mean we are slowly losing forestry traditions and/or causing long term damage? I.e should we worry that our {36} is larger than the 34?
 
Academia Nut said:
It's a bacterial respiratory infection. Patient Zero was a charcoal worker with a compromised lung capacity that had several infections at once. Within the fluid slurry of his lungs there was a bunch of bacteria and viral species floating around amidst human cellular wreckage, and one in particular through a series of genetic uptakes and infections managed to pick up the ability to produce human corticosteroids as part of its toxin profile. Some of this new strain managed to get passed on before the first host died, and in one of the infected hosts the strain perfected its ability to produce human immunosuppressants. Free of interference from the host's immune system, this early strain was able to replicate with minimal immune system response. While bacterial load in the lungs, damage from cells soaking in corticosteroids, and secondary infections from the host being immune compromised killed the hosts, there was an extended period of high bacterial load to be hilariously infectious where there were few social ques to isolate the infectious host. The bacteria was generally able to dwell within any large mammal but it's corticosteroid tricks were of highest specificity to humans.

Fortunately, while there was a high lethality strain, a secondary strain that used more sophisticated signalling soon developed. Rather than simply shutting down all immune function, it was able to hide from immune response, and even sic the host's immune system on competitors - of which the high lethality strain rapidly became its biggest target. Because of the extreme measures the People took, the strains that were better at hiding were strongly favoured, which gave the slower reproducing and more subtle strain the competitive edge. Combined with a population that was building up resistance to the disease, the ecology of the two strains has reached a low-lethality equilibrium point. The lethal strain still exists, and the less lethal one occasionally mutates or gets into a host that can't handle it, but pandemic conditions are no longer favoured.
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That...is more than a little terrifying. If we ever contact naïve populations they're going to be hit hard.

Thanks, though. I'm thinking about writing another one of those little academic blurbs and this was a good candidate.
 
BungieONI said:
Also a question, does the 29 {36}/34 mean we are slowly losing forestry traditions and/or causing long term damage? I.e should we worry that our {36} is larger than the 34?
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That doesn't make any sense

forestry traditions are managed by our priests who have temples, libaries and the wonder to preserve the knowledge

Longterm damage also doesn't make any sense since the {36} justs represents how effecient we use the wood, so expecting trouble from using something more efficient then before is kinda nonsense

If we will ever face any trouble in regarding to forest management I rather expec it in form of manpower shortage when we reach the point that we have more forests then we have farming lands
 
pbluekan said:
Not really. It's fucking terrifying actually. Don't think of it as a supplementary immune response, it's still an infection that regularly kills people. Tuberculosis is a similar endemic disease IRL.
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... If we still have purity by the time we figure out we're still infected, there's going to be havoc and panic
 
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